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Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:19:14 AM(UTC)
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I was going to create a new thread...instead I wanted to use the fixed Search feature, so I did.

Lawmakers seem prepared to tackle gun control: 'This one feels different'


I've stated my opinion on Guns a few times. I do not believe THEY kill people, however, I think many "pro Gun" people are extremely ignorant when ignoring the fact that Guns are insanely efficient at killing people. A gun is far easier to obtain than building a homemade pipe bomb and much safer for the individual to use.

Fact: Guns = more efficient killing.
Fact: Guns themselves do not kill people.

We all agree on that.

I don't think MORE gun control is necessarily the answer. And I sure as hell do NOT think MORE people need guns. That theory is absurdly moronic! Albeit, I am of the thinking if EVERYONE had a gun, we'd be much nicer to our neighbors, lol.

The loss of 20 6 and 7 year olds is spawning this debate once again. The debate of more gun control.


This worries me because ... and you've all heard me whine about this before. People will cry "why doesnt the government help make us safer!!!" ... and when they insert protocols those same people cry "why do I have to go through security just to drop my kid off at school!".

If you don't believe me, think about 9/11 and airport screening.


The more WE complain, the MORE freedom we ALLOW the government to TAKE from us. I don't want this to happen.

There has to be another method.

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Offline Porforis  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:27:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I got the following email and thought I would post it here. When I was at the site there had been 5.7 million votes cast and 97% were "yes". I find it interesting. I didn't think it would be much more than 70-75%.


It's a dumb question, I might expect 5% of people to not know the answer or just vote no to be dumb but still. They're not asking if the second amendment allows people the right to bear guns, or bear semiautomatic weapons. Just "The right to bear arms" which makes it a very, very easy answer regardless of people's personal opinions about the amendment.
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Offline DakotaT  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:05:50 AM(UTC)
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But when they wrote the words "right to bear arms" the world was equipted with muzzleloaders not AK47's and M16's. To me this issue is just like the tax issue of raising taxes 3% on the wealthy. It really isn't that big of a deal to make a compromise but you have radical people on both sides that won't budge and inch. And then the masses get caught in a black and white resolution when the real answer is grey.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
Zero2Cool on 12/18/2012(UTC), Pack93z on 12/18/2012(UTC)
Offline Pack93z  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 8:28:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post


There has to be another method.



To me it is very simple. If you commit a crime with a gun involved, don't care what the nature of the crime is, you will be punished by death.

Basically, you are disregarding the safety of others with your actions on committing a crime with a gun, a weapon that can kill easily. And since you have little regard for life, yours is now over.

This would drastically cut down on gun crime that we hear about daily. This thug mentality some have.. the "street cred" or idolization of war games for the game consoles. Placing the threat back upon the criminal that he only has one strike.. if that doesn't deter, I don't think much will.

But to me, how do you stop a person from snapping? This sounds like a guy that lost it. Unless you monitor each and every American daily, I don't know how you stop this type of crime.

There is little way to say that if he didn't have guns he would not have used another weapon at his disposal. A car at school closing. A explosive device. Hence why I think it is more of a people and societal problem than a actual gun problem. But I do agree, we citizens have little need for assault type weapons.. even semi automatics are generally overkill for hunting and protection needs.

We could delve into games such as Call of Duty, and talk about the impression left on people as they are developing. But even then we had westerns back in the day.


The root of the problem is trying to balance freedom and protection of the masses.

Edited by user Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:17:29 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline DakotaT  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:40:15 AM(UTC)
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You can go back to Reagan's eighties to trace the deterioration of the Mental Health Association in this country. Yet another social program gutted to enhance the War Machine. Not all of the children in our society are well adjusted human beings, and because they are able to slip through the cracks, the ones that need help aren't getting it.

They make us get permits to hunt and fish, but any unstable a$hole gets to be a parent. What happened in Connecticut is a societal breakdown on many levels including parenting, teachers, school counselors, pedestrians. And I'm not defending the crime either, there was personal responsibility for him to get help as well.
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Offline Pack93z  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 9:43:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
You can go back to Reagan's eighties to trace the deterioration of the Mental Health Association in this country. Yet another social program gutted to enhance the War Machine. Not all of the children in our society are well adjusted human beings, and because they are able to slip through the cracks, the ones that need help aren't getting it.

They make us get permits to hunt and fish, but any unstable a$hole gets to be a parent. What happened in Connecticut is a societal breakdown on many levels including parenting, teachers, school counselors, pedestrians. And I'm not defending the crime either, there was personal responsibility for him to get help as well.


That is a better versed restatement of my position the last time this conversation came up. I agree.

There are many layers to this discussion.. not just the guns themselves.. and not the people that adopt or oppose them. There are the extremists on both sides, but for the most part, we can improve the situation if we talk as a nation intelligently and consider all aspects of the problem itself.

Not just the guns.. but the people that use them.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline DakotaT  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:03:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
That is a better versed restatement of my position the last time this conversation came up. I agree.

There are many layers to this discussion.. not just the guns themselves.. and not the people that adopt or oppose them. There are the extremists on both sides, but for the most part, we can improve the situation if we talk as a nation intelligently and consider all aspects of the problem itself.

Not just the guns.. but the people that use them.


Haven't you been watching? This country is polarized, and an intelligent conversation on any issue is impossible, yet alone a resolution.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
Porforis on 12/18/2012(UTC)
Offline Pack93z  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:09:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Haven't you been watching? This country is polarized, and an intelligent conversation on any issue is impossible, yet alone a resolution.


I have been watching and I still am in the corner that a revolution of sorts is coming for this country. Look no further than the United we stand thread.. there is no doubt this country is fractured.

And I am sure that this debate will be more of the same... but on can still hope that men and women grow the f*ck up and actually work towards a solution in place of the typical grandstanding for public opinion while forgetting to actually work for the betterment of the country as a whole. Working for the people.. not the votes.

No matter how fleeting that hope may be.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Porforis  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:13:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
But when they wrote the words "right to bear arms" the world was equipted with muzzleloaders not AK47's and M16's. To me this issue is just like the tax issue of raising taxes 3% on the wealthy. It really isn't that big of a deal to make a compromise but you have radical people on both sides that won't budge and inch. And then the masses get caught in a black and white resolution when the real answer is grey.


There also wasn't the internet, that doesn't mean that we should start questioning the right to free speech because the founders had no concept of how powerful and wide-reaching a single voice could be. That's not to say that your point isn't completely valid, but if you look at the idea behind the amendment, the founders for the most part believed that a free, well-armed people discouraged tyrants and enabled revolution in the case of tyrants. Back in the day, the military and private citizens had access to the same weapons. While it's certainly a valid point that the sheer destruction that can be wrought by perfectly legal weapons is vastly greater now than could have been envisioned in the 1700s, you are sacrificing the safety of society for its ability to overthrow a corrupt government or military no longer serves the people. Whether that's worth it to you is up to you, if you would have asked me 10 years ago if I'd sacrifice safety for that ability I'd say no up and down. Nowadays? I hate guns but I don't want the only weapons of any significant usefulness restricted to the government and criminals (mostly gangs).

Side note: These weapons were owned by his mother, not him.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
rabidgopher04 on 12/18/2012(UTC), Formo on 12/18/2012(UTC)
Offline musccy  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 10:49:07 AM(UTC)
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If there's a will, there's a way and this issue has to be dealt with as such. Although on some level I agree with some of the gun control proposals being talked about the last few days, as we've seen in the last 6 months, explosive devices are part of the "way" as well (CO booby trapped apt, Oklahoma threat on Friday involved pipe bombs, pipe bomb brought to school in Lynchburg, VA about a month ago) and no amount of gun control can regulate that.





Offline Wade  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:00:33 PM(UTC)
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States have killed far more people without a legitimate reason to do so than individual criminals, accidents, and spree killers combined. By two or three orders of magnitude.

Damn right I think crazy on this one.

Yeah, weapons technology has progressed far beyond the muzzleloaders and swords of old.

That, to me, makes the right to bear arms *more* important than ever.

Damn right I'm crazy.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Offline DakotaT  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:17:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
States have killed far more people without a legitimate reason to do so than individual criminals, accidents, and spree killers combined. By two or three orders of magnitude.

Damn right I think crazy on this one.

Yeah, weapons technology has progressed far beyond the muzzleloaders and swords of old.

That, to me, makes the right to bear arms *more* important than ever.

Damn right I'm crazy.



Maybe they should sit your crazy ass in a room with the twenty families that just lost their babies forever so you could explain your theory?

None of us has the right to own a machine gun. Semi automatic rifles and pistols are not necessary for hunting or self defense. We live in a violent society and the people that would benefit the most from destroying these types of weapons are the ones fighting to keep our "freedoms". Coincedentally, these are the same people who continually vote against their economic interests. I love living amongst dumbasses.
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Offline Pack93z  
#28 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:53:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Maybe they should sit your crazy ass in a room with the twenty families that just lost their babies forever so you could explain your theory?


I have done everything in my power to avoid hearing, looking at or seeing the names or the faces involved. Reading their stories or hearing about how it happened.

Not because I don't care.. because it would throw me into such a fit of anger, sadness and helplessness. Mostly, because there isn't a damn thing I can do to fix it.

Adults dying is one thing.. children dying is completely another.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Porforis  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:53:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Maybe they should sit your crazy ass in a room with the twenty families that just lost their babies forever so you could explain your theory?


Oh, come on. That line of reasoning and play to emotions is beneath you. And if it weren't for the pure insensitive nature of confronting a family in grief with a question like this, do you REALLY think all those families would be all for banning everything beyond single-fire rifles and shotguns, 6-round handgun clips? Do you really think ALL of them are dumb enough to not realize that this tragedy could have happened just as easily with an illegal and trivial cartridge modification to a handgun? Or to a lesser extent, with weapons you seem fine with keeping legal?

Edited by user Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:09:39 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Formo  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:14:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Maybe they should sit your crazy ass in a room with the twenty families that just lost their babies forever so you could explain your theory?

None of us has the right to own a machine gun. Semi automatic rifles and pistols are not necessary for hunting or self defense. We live in a violent society and the people that would benefit the most from destroying these types of weapons are the ones fighting to keep our "freedoms". Coincedentally, these are the same people who continually vote against their economic interests. I love living amongst dumbasses.


I can't fathom a reason for me to own a machine gun. There is no good reason to, IMO. But if the gubment can own and operate one, damn straight I wouldn't mind having one myself.

We lost our freedoms and liberties when the government achieved the access to items/weapons/etc that we cannot.

Safety vs Freedom. I choose Freedom.
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