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NodakPaul  
#21 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 5:25:19 PM(UTC)
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In the trenches I like the Vikings better but if you look at the Packers spreading the field and going 3, 4, and 5 wide set, Minnesota doesn't match up very well. They don't have the corners and secondary that can go against the Packers passing game.

I guarantee you the Packers aren't going to be stupid and drop back and look for the deep ball. It's going to be a short passing attack. Much like in the first meeting between these two teams.

Two factors I believe aren't talked about enough with the Vikings.

1. Bryant McKinnie. Is he going to be suspended? Last I heard he was but I have to admit I haven't been following it and I dont know if it was made official. If so that is a huge loss for the Vikings.

Aaron Kampman will match up against Ryan Cook on the other side. That alone is a tough task. Minnesotas 2nd string tackle against maybe a KGB or Cullen Jenkins could prove to hurt them. They may have to pay more attention to that combination than they would of liked to have if they had McKinnie in there.

Quite frankly, I like Clifton up against Allen better than Cook against Kampman anyways.

2. Madieu Williams is probably going to be out. Who is starting? Tyrell Johnson. If so the Packers will exploit him. Hes a rookie and even though I like him, hes going to have his hands full back there.

I think the Packers passing attack has a slight edge over the Vikings pass defense. I don't think you cant take the 2nd best passing attack in the league last year versus one of the last in the league at stopping it a year ago and say the team that finished last is going to have an advantage. At the very least we might be looking at a draw pending who is out.

Couple of guys who could miss the game for the Pack and it would be a blow.

1. I think James Jones is a huge loss if the cant go for the Pack because Marcus McCaughly will have an easier time with Ruvell Martin than James Jones.

2. Ryan Pickett is out the Vikings will win the game. Pickett in my opinion is the most underrated player in the division. He doesn't get enough credit he deserves.

I think its very close between these two teams.

Packers passing game > Vikings passing defense
Packers running game &lt; Vikings run defense
Packers pass defense &gt; Vikings pass offense
Packers run defense &lt; Vikings run defense

This game will come down to coaching, discipline, and turnovers.

It can go either way.

I also think the pass protection problems the Packers have won't be as bad as people think. It's like I was saying with short passes.

Minnesota is the type of team you beat with short passes. McCarthy will do that and it will make up for any protection problems. The Vikings may want to blitz the Packers because I think Rodgers has a harder time reading the blitz right now than anything. I'd bring Leber all day.

Also people forget the Packers were 7-1 at home last year. they've beaten Minnesota the last four times. McCarthy hasn't loss versus the Vikings. He has Childress' number right now. The two teams are so close that actually could be a deciding factor.


I agree with a lot of your post, and I think we are pretty much on the same page for most of it. I will again mention that if you actually look at all of the stats, not just the yards per game, you will see that the Vikings were not last against the pass. Bottom half - yes. Not last though.

And the Packers have lost a key component to their second ranked passing attack from last year. While I think that Rodgers will be a good QB, I don't think he will be able to put up a very good performance against the Vikings. First start ever, nationally televised game, a quarter of the fans still booing him, going against the best DL in the league, and Fav-re's picture printed on every ticket. Lots of pressure...
warhawk  
#22 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 5:39:42 PM(UTC)
I see some valid points and some not so valid points.

The Vikes have a good run defense but lousy pass defense. If anything, good run defense should HELP the pass defense. Anytime a team can force their opponent to be one dimenshioned they should be able to react better than being dead last in that other area.

Secondly, TJack being out like this is not good for a player and a team that struggles in the pass game. Let's face it the guy needs the work. You say his numbers aren't bad thus far but then again he wasn't out there to produce them.

The Vikes have better run blocking but we pass protect better and have a more productive QB.

The Vikes D line is stronger than ours but we are much better behind the line then their guys.

The only way I see us losing this game is if we let AP run loose. Forget what their DL said about Favre. Arod will have a good game and complete just as many throws as Brett would. I think the Vikes have every bit as much to worry about with our receivers and the YAC's they can produce as we do with AP and his ability to break big runs.

If history repeats itself our guys running after the catch against a porous defensive backfield will once again prove to be to much to overcome.
gakko  
#23 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 6:00:45 PM(UTC)
no edge on the passing game? Come on, you have tarvaris jackson and who at receiver?
Cheesey  
#24 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 6:12:33 PM(UTC)
Rodgers being an unknown i think is what Viking fans count on. I think they feel because he is the new starter, he won't be up to the pressure of starting in the NFL.
I think he will be up to it, and produce quite well.
Of course thats just my "homer" opinion.
zombieslayer  
#25 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 7:09:56 PM(UTC)
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Forget what their DL said about Favre. Arod will have a good game and complete just as many throws as Brett would.


Wishful thinking.

Hey, I like Aaron too. But Favre played like he had eyes on the back of his head. He knew exactly where the rush was coming from.

Aaron's a solid passer, don't get me wrong. He doesn't have the experience Favre does with a pass rush. MN will attack that. How successful will they be is anyone's guess. I'm hoping Wells is 100% by game 1, so Spitz can play G.
NodakPaul  
#26 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 7:13:44 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
no edge on the passing game? Come on, you have tarvaris jackson and who at receiver?


I didn't look at the Packers passing offense versus the Vikings passing offense. Why would I? Those two units are never on the field at the same time.

When I look at the Vikings passing DEFENSE versus the Packers passing OFFENSE, I call it a tie. When I look at the Vikings passing OFFENSE against the Packers passing DEFENSE, I gave the advantage to the Packers.
Zero2Cool  
#27 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 7:24:35 PM(UTC)
You can give all the edges to the Vikings you want, but no matter what, they ain't walking out of Lambeau without a goose egg in the W column. :)
NodakPaul  
#28 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 7:28:45 PM(UTC)
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You can give all the edges to the Vikings you want, but no matter what, they ain't walking out of Lambeau without a goose egg in the W column. :)


We shall see.... ;)
TengoJuego  
#29 Posted : Monday, August 25, 2008 10:41:00 PM(UTC)
Ugh...I hate giving the Viqueens any kind words(my most hated NFL team). Although I have very High respect for a guy like AP, I don't see them beating us. I don't see their passing game having any kind of success, and it will all rest on, can our D-line stop the run and play well enough to hold off the duo? Will our Offense produce and not rely on the defense to keep it close?

I think so, I think A-rod will surprise. Call me crazy, you may think he will struggle and he just wont be prolific, I think hes ready to be our QB and leader.
warhawk  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:19:44 AM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
no edge on the passing game? Come on, you have tarvaris jackson and who at receiver?


I didn't look at the Packers passing offense versus the Vikings passing offense. Why would I? Those two units are never on the field at the same time.

When I look at the Vikings passing DEFENSE versus the Packers passing OFFENSE, I call it a tie. When I look at the Vikings passing OFFENSE against the Packers passing DEFENSE, I gave the advantage to the Packers.


And what basis can you possibly use to support this? You pass defense has been one of the worst in the league and our pass offense one of the best. If, in fact, this catagory was even close to a tie it would be us losing 34-0 instead of you guys.

You guys have plenty of strengths but pass defense ain't one of 'em and until they prove that not to be true it is what it is. The facts are your DB's do not match up well with our catch and run receivers so I cannot see how in the world you can call this a draw.

The bottom line is if AP breaks loose for big gains we probably lose the game and there is certainly reason to be concerned (for us) that this could happen but our passing offense is going to get the better of the Vikes pass "D".
dfosterf  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:38:57 AM(UTC)
I don't like this thread, I don't like it at all. Nodak makes far too much sense and I hate it when that happens, especially coming from a Vikings fan. The only response I have to silly threads like this one is... Oh ya, well, I'm gonna go get my big brother... THEN we'll see.
NodakPaul  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 12:55:00 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
no edge on the passing game? Come on, you have tarvaris jackson and who at receiver?


I didn't look at the Packers passing offense versus the Vikings passing offense. Why would I? Those two units are never on the field at the same time.

When I look at the Vikings passing DEFENSE versus the Packers passing OFFENSE, I call it a tie. When I look at the Vikings passing OFFENSE against the Packers passing DEFENSE, I gave the advantage to the Packers.


And what basis can you possibly use to support this? You pass defense has been one of the worst in the league and our pass offense one of the best. If, in fact, this catagory was even close to a tie it would be us losing 34-0 instead of you guys.

You guys have plenty of strengths but pass defense ain't one of 'em and until they prove that not to be true it is what it is. The facts are your DB's do not match up well with our catch and run receivers so I cannot see how in the world you can call this a draw.

The bottom line is if AP breaks loose for big gains we probably lose the game and there is certainly reason to be concerned (for us) that this could happen but our passing offense is going to get the better of the Vikes pass "D".


&lt;sigh&gt; Did you even read the original post? I think I stated my reasons pretty well. Here is that particular section again:
" said: Go to Quoted Post

Vikings Passing Defense vs Packers Passing Offense
Edge: None

For the Pack, Driver and Jennings can be difference makers, and even though Rodgers is new to the starting spot, this is his fourth year in the system. HOwever, the Packers OL is in a bad spot. Not only have they not given the QB any time so far in preseason, Scott Wells was also hampered by a torso injury throughout preseason. If he can't start, expect Spitz to continue to fill in at center. With the extent of Josh Sitton's knee injury still unknown, we could be looking at Barbre and Colledge as the two startign guards this year. If the OL was in better shape, the edge would go to the Packers here. But because of the OL, it is a tie.
On the Vikings side, I am not going to cite Minnesota's last place ranking in total passing yards last year because that stat is skewed by the run defense. Sharper and Madieu Williams are still learning to work with each other, and they haven't been on the field together a lot in the preseason. Griffin is looking better, but still needs some polishing at the CB position. Jared Allen will definitely bring the pressure, and will get at least one sack. The Vikings easily have one of the best DLs in the league, and that should translate into a much better passing defense.


While your pass offense was very good last year, there are several things different this year. I like Rodgers as a QB, but he will not put up the same kind of numbers that Fav-re did last year - especially not in his first NFL start. Your OL has also been hit hard by the injury bug.

As for the Vikings, while our pass defense was poor last year, there are several things different this year. Specifically the addition of a pass rush, which was sorely lacking last year.

I agree that the packers WRs have the edge over the Vikings secondary, especially with M.Williams out. But they are only a part of the passing equation. You also have a green QB behind a suspect OL against the best DL in the league. The advantages and disadvantages to both teams even out rather well.
zombieslayer  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:07:02 PM(UTC)
The whole Packers Pass O vs Vikings Pass D rests on our OL vs their DL. Yes, we have better WRs than their DBs. I think Nodak has stated this more than once. But as we saw in the Super Bowl, the threat of a superior WR staff can be minimized by a strong pass rush.

The Giants DBs were average at best and Randy Moss was hands down the best WR in the NFL last year. What happened? The DL never gave Brady enough time to even look for an open receiver.

So this whole argument goes to how our OL fares up against their DL. Our OL is battered. We'll need Wells healthy, and we'll need better blocking by our RBs because you know someone will get through.

I'm guessing the determining factors in this game will be turnovers and the battle of our OL vs their DL. AP is the 2nd best RB in the NFL, but if we can keep him off the field, then we can minimize his threat.
pack_in_black  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:11:20 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post



......


And the Packers have lost a key component to their second ranked passing attack from last year. While I think that Rodgers will be a good QB, I don't think he will be able to put up a very good performance against the Vikings. First start ever, nationally televised game, a quarter of the fans still booing him, going against the best DL in the league, and Fav-re's picture printed on every ticket. Lots of pressure...




First, that Favre on the tickets line made me laugh. Since I think I detected humorous intent, I doubt Aaron's gonna be on the sidelines between drives looking at fans' ticket stubs... lol


While I agree he'll show a little response to the pressure, he did fine on MNF's preseason opener, so the national audience thing shouldn't be a big factor, the Lambeau faithful gave him a standing o in his first appearance as a starter, and Mike McCarthy is a good enough coach to call plays to protect him from your admittedly impressive d-line.

Just my two pennies
TheEngineer  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 1:34:20 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post



......


And the Packers have lost a key component to their second ranked passing attack from last year. While I think that Rodgers will be a good QB, I don't think he will be able to put up a very good performance against the Vikings. First start ever, nationally televised game, a quarter of the fans still booing him, going against the best DL in the league, and Fav-re's picture printed on every ticket. Lots of pressure...




First, that Favre on the tickets line made me laugh. Since I think I detected humorous intent, I doubt Aaron's gonna be on the sidelines between drives looking at fans' ticket stubs... lol


While I agree he'll show a little response to the pressure, he did fine on MNF's preseason opener, so the national audience thing shouldn't be a big factor, the Lambeau faithful gave him a standing o in his first appearance as a starter, and Mike McCarthy is a good enough coach to call plays to protect him from your admittedly impressive d-line.

Just my two pennies


I think Aaron has learned something between preseason game 1 and preseason game 4. That's if you try and push too hard to do well and try to make things happen, chances are you're going to get sacked. Just play within yourself and make the quick throws, and he'll be fine.

For this reason I think he'll be less daunted by the the MNF game, and it won't be as big as a factor as it usually is for 1st time starters (who are generally within their first 2 or 3 years - not a 4 year, same offense man like Rodgers).
warhawk  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:28:37 PM(UTC)
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" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
no edge on the passing game? Come on, you have tarvaris jackson and who at receiver?


I didn't look at the Packers passing offense versus the Vikings passing offense. Why would I? Those two units are never on the field at the same time.

When I look at the Vikings passing DEFENSE versus the Packers passing OFFENSE, I call it a tie. When I look at the Vikings passing OFFENSE against the Packers passing DEFENSE, I gave the advantage to the Packers.


And what basis can you possibly use to support this? You pass defense has been one of the worst in the league and our pass offense one of the best. If, in fact, this catagory was even close to a tie it would be us losing 34-0 instead of you guys.

You guys have plenty of strengths but pass defense ain't one of 'em and until they prove that not to be true it is what it is. The facts are your DB's do not match up well with our catch and run receivers so I cannot see how in the world you can call this a draw.

The bottom line is if AP breaks loose for big gains we probably lose the game and there is certainly reason to be concerned (for us) that this could happen but our passing offense is going to get the better of the Vikes pass "D".


&lt;sigh&gt; Did you even read the original post? I think I stated my reasons pretty well. Here is that particular section again:
" said: Go to Quoted Post

Vikings Passing Defense vs Packers Passing Offense
Edge: None

For the Pack, Driver and Jennings can be difference makers, and even though Rodgers is new to the starting spot, this is his fourth year in the system. HOwever, the Packers OL is in a bad spot. Not only have they not given the QB any time so far in preseason, Scott Wells was also hampered by a torso injury throughout preseason. If he can't start, expect Spitz to continue to fill in at center. With the extent of Josh Sitton's knee injury still unknown, we could be looking at Barbre and Colledge as the two startign guards this year. If the OL was in better shape, the edge would go to the Packers here. But because of the OL, it is a tie.
On the Vikings side, I am not going to cite Minnesota's last place ranking in total passing yards last year because that stat is skewed by the run defense. Sharper and Madieu Williams are still learning to work with each other, and they haven't been on the field together a lot in the preseason. Griffin is looking better, but still needs some polishing at the CB position. Jared Allen will definitely bring the pressure, and will get at least one sack. The Vikings easily have one of the best DLs in the league, and that should translate into a much better passing defense.


While your pass offense was very good last year, there are several things different this year. I like Rodgers as a QB, but he will not put up the same kind of numbers that Fav-re did last year - especially not in his first NFL start. Your OL has also been hit hard by the injury bug.

As for the Vikings, while our pass defense was poor last year, there are several things different this year. Specifically the addition of a pass rush, which was sorely lacking last year.

I agree that the packers WRs have the edge over the Vikings secondary, especially with M.Williams out. But they are only a part of the passing equation. You also have a green QB behind a suspect OL against the best DL in the league. The advantages and disadvantages to both teams even out rather well.


In '05 when we had the top rated pass defense I thought it was a joke because nobody HAD to throw it to beat us. Conversely, I see no justification for a poor pass defense because you stop the run well? What does that have to do with anything other than they should KNOW they opposing teams are going to throw it at them and SHOULD be able then to stop it.

Your same comments could easily have been made last year about how outclassed our young "O" line would be against that "D" front yet we eaked out a 34-0 win.

You also seem to put a lot of eggs in the Jared Allen basket to all of a sudden take a team that was poor at rushing the QB and now they will be good there. Better does not make good enough until that is proven.

I like Ted Thompson because he deals in reality and gets the guys that are needed to really make a team better over pure optimism. The Vikes struck one cord there and that was Allen but as far as TJack, he should be long gone and some guys remotely capable to the days of Moss are sorely needed at receiver. No, an ex-Bear that's never done jack against us does not qualify.

It's no coincidence that the teams hoisting the big trophy at the end all chuck it pretty damn good. You can say what you want about NY and yes they played unbelievable on defense but what won that SB was Eli getting hot those last 7-8 games. He plays same ole, same ole, and NY get's no where near the SB. That's reality.

And if ARod doesn't get it done you can pretty well know we will suck too so that you see that reality is for everyone.
bozz_2006  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 8:30:42 PM(UTC)
well done warhawk. +1
zombieslayer  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:09:03 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
The Vikes struck one cord there and that was Allen but as far as TJack, he should be long gone and some guys remotely capable to the days of Moss are sorely needed at receiver. No, an ex-Bear that's never done jack against us does not qualify.



To beat the Vikings this year is to beat them the same way in '07. Keep AP off the field. How? Get an early lead. Childress will panic and start playing TJack instead of their dynamic running duo and we win.

Things we cannot do:
1) turn the ball over,
2) let anyone get to Aaron.

I don't see the big deal about Berrian. He's an average WR. Not a huge pickup. We keep their running game off the field and force them to pass, we win in a blowout.

I'm always worried about the Vikings every year because on paper, they look absolutely sick. Then the season starts and they implode.

On paper, the Vikings should be in a position to challenge us for the NFC North. But as I've said earlier this year, even without Favre, the NFC North is ours. The Vikings will find a way to screw it all up.

Sorry, Nodak. You know what they say about history.
NodakPaul  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, August 26, 2008 11:57:10 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post

It's no coincidence that the teams hoisting the big trophy at the end all chuck it pretty damn good.


Yeah, like Brad Johnson when he won with Tampa Bay. Oh wait no... I must have been thinking about Trent Dilfer with the Ravens. No wait, that's not it either... Let's see, the Bears made it to the big game because Grossman played so... good?

Well Manning is great... but for some reason he only has one ring - and that was against the Bears. Fav-re was pretty damn good, but when was the last time he got a ring? The Pats broke Minnesota's record for most points scored in a single season last year. Coincidently neither team got a ring when they did so.

History is riddled with teams who are successful with a great defense but average offense. Having a great passing game is NOT the sole way to a SB birth.
porky88  
#40 Posted : Wednesday, August 27, 2008 1:18:17 AM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post

It's no coincidence that the teams hoisting the big trophy at the end all chuck it pretty damn good.


Yeah, like Brad Johnson when he won with Tampa Bay. Oh wait no... I must have been thinking about Trent Dilfer with the Ravens. No wait, that's not it either... Let's see, the Bears made it to the big game because Grossman played so... good?

Well Manning is great... but for some reason he only has one ring - and that was against the Bears. Fav-re was pretty damn good, but when was the last time he got a ring? The Pats broke Minnesota's record for most points scored in a single season last year. Coincidently neither team got a ring when they did so.

History is riddled with teams who are successful with a great defense but average offense. Having a great passing game is NOT the sole way to a SB birth.


Wait a second. This isn't the first time I've heard a Viking fan compare their team to those teams but that defense isn't on the level of Baltimore's or Tampa Bay's from those Super Bowl years. Their defensive line maybe but Derrick Brooks or Ray Lewis isn't there.

Tampa Bay had a nice passing game the year they won the Super Bowl. Johnson threw for over 3,000 yards and 22 touchdowns. Also only 6 picks when I looked it up which is amazing. Keyshaun Johnson was a pretty good receiver too something Minnesota really doesn't have.

You strike me as someone who is a realist. Do you think that defense can be like the Ravens? If not then do you think Jackson can have a season like Brad Johnson?

For Minnesota to win the Super Bowl I think one of those things need to happen.
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