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Offline Porforis  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:57:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
If the Tea Party was in ultimate control of this country, every social program would be gutted to nothing, every immigrant would be deported, starving people would be allowed to starve to death, all foreign aid would be cut off, research for diseases like cancer would be gutted. But they're not fascist, they're somehow considered patriotic - but only in the mind of a retard.


And while we're taking the most extreme example of a Tea Partier and passing him or her off as Joe Tea Party, I guess it's also fair if I also find the most extreme example of a Democrat and pass him or her off as a typical Democrat, right?
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Offline DakotaT  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:06:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
And while we're taking the most extreme example of a Tea Partier and passing him or her off as Joe Tea Party, I guess it's also fair if I also find the most extreme example of a Democrat and pass him or her off as a typical Democrat, right?


Are you missing what your heroes in the House of Representatives are doing, or should I say not doing, right now. Didn't their do nothing obstructionism hinder this country enough from 08-12; now we have to go another 2 years until these assholes are voted out in 14?
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Offline Porforis  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:11:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Are you missing what your heroes in the House of Representatives are doing, or should I say not doing, right now. Didn't their do nothing obstructionism hinder this country enough from 08-12; now we have to go another 2 years until these assholes are voted out in 14?


I didn't realize that the Tea Party or Republican party were my heroes, they're both crazy and/or deplorable enough in their own unique ways. In any case, what did that have to do with you suggesting that Joe Tea Party or active representatives would completely gut all social programs, deport every immigrant (see: everyone), let people starve to death in the street, gut research for cancer?
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Offline DakotaT  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:27:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
I didn't realize that the Tea Party or Republican party were my heroes, they're both crazy and/or deplorable enough in their own unique ways. In any case, what did that have to do with you suggesting that Joe Tea Party or active representatives would completely gut all social programs, deport every immigrant (see: everyone), let people starve to death in the street, gut research for cancer?


Yes I believe that, because their goal is to not pay any taxes, and without revenue, all programs are gutted. And their rationale is that the country didn't need taxes before the two World Wars so why do we need them now? That kind of thinking drives me up a wall because it is so ass backwards to the times we are living in. The fact of the matter is that we all live in this wonderful country and to ensure that we all have happines and a chance for a good life we need to pay back to our country when we are doing well. That is what a progressive tax system is designed to do - and 30 years of trickle down moronics from the right wing has put us in the current shithole we find ourselves, but the wealthy got to gut the country of it's wealth by legalized tax evasion. It doesn't really get much simpler than that. All the social issues are wag the dog tactics to draw attention away from the thievery.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
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Offline Porforis  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:40:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Yes I believe that, because their goal is to not pay any taxes, and without revenue, all programs are gutted. And their rationale is that the country didn't need taxes before the two World Wars so why do we need them now?


>Using the word "taxes" (implying all taxation) as a substitute for "Federal income taxes" (a very specific form of taxation).

Granted, property-tax heavy taxation isn't going to work nowadays. In any case, I'm asking this out of geniune curiosity and not to be combative: Do you have a source for your claims regarding income taxes? Sure, I've heard batshit fiscal ideas from some libertarians (which is part of why I hesitate to call myself one, I prefer "Libertarian but not crazy") but I've not heard any super-duper-reactionary fiscal ideas spouted from anybody of importance.
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Offline DakotaT  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:56:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
>Using the word "taxes" (implying all taxation) as a substitute for "Federal income taxes" (a very specific form of taxation).

Granted, property-tax heavy taxation isn't going to work nowadays. In any case, I'm asking this out of geniune curiosity and not to be combative: Do you have a source for your claims regarding income taxes? Sure, I've heard batshit fiscal ideas from some libertarians (which is part of why I hesitate to call myself one, I prefer "Libertarian but not crazy") but I've not heard any super-duper-reactionary fiscal ideas spouted from anybody of importance.


I predict in the next decade, you'll see what is called a VAT tax

http://www.google.com/ur...;bvm=bv.1355534169,d.b2I


The reason for this is because our treasury needs an influx of revenue and because wealthy people have become so resourceful at paying 14% of their income instead of 39% like they are suppose under current income tax codes, so this tax has become necessary - and it is exactly the type of regressive tax that kicks the little people in the nutz. Maybe a national sales tax will be implented.
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Offline Porforis  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:11:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I predict in the next decade, you'll see what is called a VAT tax

http://www.google.com/ur...;bvm=bv.1355534169,d.b2I


The reason for this is because our treasury needs an influx of revenue and because wealthy people have become so resourceful at paying 14% of their income instead of 39% like they are suppose under current income tax codes, so this tax has become necessary - and it is exactly the type of regressive tax that kicks the little people in the nutz. Maybe a national sales tax will be implented.


I wouldn't be opposed to something along those lines, capital gains taxes also need to be bracketized based on income. However I don't see what that has to do with my previous post unless you're equating opposition to a VAT tax to wanting the polar opposite in which case the same can be said about many Democrats.

Side note - If I don't respond for a few days, I'm not avoiding the topic. We're leaving for the inlaws tomorrow morning, I'll be back Sunday just in time for the game and I should be back then. :)
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Offline Formo  
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:41:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
What rights have you had taken from you since King Barry took over? Now be specific. How exactly is your life any different?

All you jackasses have to offer is that it's going to be this way or that way someday. If the leaders of all you sheep were so smart at forecasting the future, how come none of you are wealthy yet or better yet - smarter?


Who's bringing up Obummer? I haven't. This police state nonsense started long before Barack.

Did you forget about the SOPA already? That almost got through, and if it weren't for huge mega internet companies like Facebook an Google jumping all over the gubment, we'd be having some serious personal violation issues. Then there's the [url=http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr1540enr/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540enr.pdfNDAA of fiscal year 2012.[/url] That is linked to the PDF of the actual bill on the gubment's website. If the US gubment suspects you or I of terrorist activities, they can detain us indefinitely without trial.

We continue to lose our rights to fly without being molested by poorly trained TSA agents.

C'mon man. You're making it easy for me.
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Offline Formo  
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:44:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
Yes I believe that, because their goal is to not pay any taxes, and without revenue, all programs are gutted. And their rationale is that the country didn't need taxes before the two World Wars so why do we need them now? That kind of thinking drives me up a wall because it is so ass backwards to the times we are living in. The fact of the matter is that we all live in this wonderful country and to ensure that we all have happines and a chance for a good life we need to pay back to our country when we are doing well. That is what a progressive tax system is designed to do - and 30 years of trickle down moronics from the right wing has put us in the current shithole we find ourselves, but the wealthy got to gut the country of it's wealth by legalized tax evasion. It doesn't really get much simpler than that. All the social issues are wag the dog tactics to draw attention away from the thievery.


Oh, you only slurp up the images of the Tea Party that your precious liberal media portrays them as. This post is a joke.
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Offline DakotaT  
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:47:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Formo Go to Quoted Post
If the US gubment suspects you or I of terrorist activities, they can detain us indefinitely without trial.

We continue to lose our rights to fly without being molested by poorly trained TSA agents.

C'mon man. You're making it easy for me.


And at what regularity is this happening? Give me some cold hard facts and I'm sure it is way less than 1% of our population being detained. You're talking about an administrative law that happened because of an invasion of our country. When the Japanese Americans were detained without doing anything wrong during WWII, they just sucked it up, didn't whine about it at all.
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Offline Wade  
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:59:35 AM(UTC)
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There you go again, DakotaT.

Ok, time for you to put your brains where your mouth is....

Please provide some evidence that government produces more value than it costs. I'll even allow you to provide "indirect" benefits that come from "public goods". I'll also allow you to count as "benefit" any "other costs" that are saved as a result of having government do X, Y, or Z for us. You can do it for government overall, or just for the feds if you want.

I'll only require three things of you. (These are what I would require of one of my undergraduate econ majors, and you're a heckuva lot smarter than most of them.)

1. The evidence must be "quantitative" or otherwise empirical. No mere waving of one's arms about all the things government does for A, B, C, and D. You have to put a number on the benefit and you have to compare it to the amount of spending required to get that benefit. (As a bona fide producer of real economic value (i.e., that nectar of yours!) in excess of the costs of production, I know you know the difference between expenditure to make something (e.g. your labor and overhead costs) and the benefit created by said expenditure (in your case, a good measure of the benefit of much honey is the price people will pay for it).

2. If the benefit is indirect (i.e., we pay government for X and therefore we get more of the valuable thing Y), you must explain the logic whereby more X leads to more Y AND provide empirical evidence of how much X gets how much Y.

3. If the expenditure works primarily a "transfer payment" (i.e., it takes $$$ out of Peter's pocket, e.g., through taxes, and puts it in Paul's pocket), you must provide quantitative evidence that the extra value that Paul will produce over and above the costs of administering that transfer payment (i.e., the IRS and its enforcers, extra CPAs and tax lawyers and lobbyists that Peter will hire to reduce the transfer, extra CPAs and lawyers and lobbyists that Paul will pay to increase the transfer.

I'll even let you get the help of anyone else here considers themselves something other than a "bat shit libertarian" or "even crazier anarchist" to help you out. I'm not sure that allows you to use the slayer of zombies to help you or not, but I'm pretty sure it allows you to draw from anyone else here other than yours truly. Even vikesrule (who, except for that ND v. MN thing, I think you pretty much agree with) and Formo (who, I'm pretty sure you don't).

If you, by yourself or together with the massed intelligence of PackersHome-1, can do all three of the above provide credible sources for your numbers other than a political speech, ad, or editorial ... heck, if you can provide empirical evidence for two of the three, I'll abandon anarchism and vote for whichever Presidential candidate you wish in 2016.

So, yes, I'm giving you until the 12:01 a.m. on the first Tuesday of November, 2016.

I am not, however, going to hold my breadth.

Go to it.

Big Grin
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Formo  
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:00:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
And at what regularity is this happening? Give me some cold hard facts and I'm sure it is way less than 1% of our population being detained. You're talking about an administrative law that happened because of an invasion of our country. When the Japanese Americans were detained without doing anything wrong during WWII, they just sucked it up, didn't whine about it at all.


Really? That was absolutely wrong too. The Japanese are weird people anyway, so how would you know what they truly felt? Regardless, it doesn't make what we did to them any more right.
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Offline Formo  
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:03:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
There you go again, DakotaT.

Ok, time for you to put your brains where your mouth is....

Please provide some evidence that government produces more value than it costs. I'll even allow you to provide "indirect" benefits that come from "public goods". I'll also allow you to count as "benefit" any "other costs" that are saved as a result of having government do X, Y, or Z for us. You can do it for government overall, or just for the feds if you want.

I'll only require three things of you. (These are what I would require of one of my undergraduate econ majors, and you're a heckuva lot smarter than most of them.)

1. The evidence must be "quantitative" or otherwise empirical. No mere waving of one's arms about all the things government does for A, B, C, and D. You have to put a number on the benefit and you have to compare it to the amount of spending required to get that benefit. (As a bona fide producer of real economic value (i.e., that nectar of yours!) in excess of the costs of production, I know you know the difference between expenditure to make something (e.g. your labor and overhead costs) and the benefit created by said expenditure (in your case, a good measure of the benefit of much honey is the price people will pay for it).

2. If the benefit is indirect (i.e., we pay government for X and therefore we get more of the valuable thing Y), you must explain the logic whereby more X leads to more Y AND provide empirical evidence of how much X gets how much Y.

3. If the expenditure works primarily a "transfer payment" (i.e., it takes $$$ out of Peter's pocket, e.g., through taxes, and puts it in Paul's pocket), you must provide quantitative evidence that the extra value that Paul will produce over and above the costs of administering that transfer payment (i.e., the IRS and its enforcers, extra CPAs and tax lawyers and lobbyists that Peter will hire to reduce the transfer, extra CPAs and lawyers and lobbyists that Paul will pay to increase the transfer.

I'll even let you get the help of anyone else here considers themselves something other than a "bat shit libertarian" or "even crazier anarchist" to help you out. I'm not sure that allows you to use the slayer of zombies to help you or not, but I'm pretty sure it allows you to draw from anyone else here other than yours truly. Even vikesrule (who, except for that ND v. MN thing, I think you pretty much agree with) and Formo (who, I'm pretty sure you don't).

If you, by yourself or together with the massed intelligence of PackersHome-1, can do all three of the above provide credible sources for your numbers other than a political speech, ad, or editorial ... heck, if you can provide empirical evidence for two of the three, I'll abandon anarchism and vote for whichever Presidential candidate you wish in 2016.

So, yes, I'm giving you until the 12:01 a.m. on the first Tuesday of November, 2016.

I am not, however, going to hold my breadth.

Go to it.

Big Grin


lol Funny. But I won't help him. He's on his own. =)
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Offline Wade  
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:04:04 PM(UTC)
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P.s. I'm pretty sure Kevin will be willing to break my last post into a new thread so we can all watch how this evidence accumulates.

Wouldn't you, Kevin?

We could call it the "Evidence that Wade is Full of Shit in His Government Hate" thread, or something similar.

None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
Offline Wade  
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 27, 2012 12:05:45 PM(UTC)
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P.P.S. Merry Third Day of Christmas, everyone!!
None of the above. It wouldn't have been a wasted vote. Obama and Romney -- Those were the wasted votes.
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