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Offline Pack93z  
#76 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 9:00:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
It doesn't matter what the scheme is, if the pass rush leaves run lanes open. Three weeks ago, there was no rush discipline and MN beat us, two weeks ago, they have the rush discipline and we win, this game no lane discipline and again we lose. I give much of the credit in that to SF. They blocked us out of our lanes as much as we rushed ourselves out of them. Our edges get to far upfield and our middle doesn't get enough. We had the same problem back with the 4-3. the center got no push and the edges go up field making huge escape lanes for QB.


It all comes down to discipline.. and we lack it in several areas, most notably on the edge. A guy like Walden gives the edge way to often. That is the overall season and not just this game.

But beyond that.. we just got beat at the point of attack, their offensive line simply beat our front. Big physical lines will exploit the 3-4 at times, the is one of the knocks on a 3-4, if your backers are not physical enough across the boards or disciplined enough, they will get exposed.

We got beat in that match up, their offensive line beat our front. And it was enough to beat us on Saturday.

This is my opinion, this league is circular in offensive schemes, things are tried, if they succeed they become popular and copied until the defense figures it out and how to stop it. The read option, especially out of the pistol, is the latest newcomer to the scene. Defenses the last couple years have seen the league torched by the pass, teams build to stop the pass. They scheme to stop the pass. And then someone exposes the underbelly of these concepts, and it becomes a fad.

The real answer, IMO, is to build a defense that can play multiple fronts with strong cover corners behind it. Just like the offense, defenses go through cycles. 3-4 to 4-3 and back to 3-4 as the dominate fronts. Look no further than the Packers.. 80's were 3-4, 90' through the most of the next decade 4-3, then back to the 3-4. Both have weaknesses and strengths, but I think to many times a DC gets too married to one or the other. I personally think, to be successful in this league, you have to be able to play a multiple front defense based on match ups.

That is my disappointment with Capers.. I anticipated a guy that would bring more variations to the table and make adjustments in game a little more fluidly and rapidly. That said, I refuse to lay all the blame at his feet when he is playing at least 3 or 4 deep down the depth chart at several positions and still help carry this team this deep into the season.

Example.. the Cap run off the right edge.. Walden got sucked in and pinned, and Jones failed to read and cover the gap. Both of these guys are backup players being forces up the rotation. Both are good players, but have weaknesses at this point in their games. Walden is undisciplined as they come.. and this has been exposed over and over from 2010 on. Go back to a late season Bears game in 2010.. it looked almost identical to this season often. Jones is a first year inside backer that is trying to forget his outside backer mindset, sometimes he gets caught. Is it Capers fault that we lost DJ and Bishop? Is it his fault that we lost Perry whom is a better edge player?

No.

I think Capers is a good defensive mind, and I refuse to lay all the blame upon him. However, if they choose to part company, a fresh mind might be welcomed.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline wpr  
#77 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 9:03:23 AM(UTC)
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If that is how you see the game unfolding I am ok with that.
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Offline Gaycandybacon  
#78 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 11:22:46 AM(UTC)
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Either way I think we'll be a better defense next year. Dom capers or not. We need trenches players. It's pretty obvious that's what we're gonna look for in this draft. I would go 2 Offensive lineman, 2 Linebackers, and 3 defensive lineman. Ted Thompson will probably trade and stuff like he normally does, so that's just based on what I think with the 7 picks we got now. I think we got depth at the offensive line position. As in, Barclay, Lang, and EDS stepped up this season. But we need a backup for Newhouse, if we get that early in the draft we'll be good there. Along with the defensive line we need to replace Pickett, and get a backup for Raji. Hopefully Worthy will recover and maybe Daniels develops and overcomes his size disadvantage. Finally we need a better backup for Perry, and another MLB to backup, Jones, Smith, and Bishop. Hopefully Jones will develop into a better MLB next year. Certainly Bishops presence on the field will be a huge boost next season, we've missed that guy.
Offline doddpower  
#79 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 11:47:30 AM(UTC)
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Can anyone update me on what type of injury Worthy actually sustained? I must have missed further information on exactly what his knee injury was. Was it just a sprain, ACL, etc?
Offline DakotaT  
#80 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:22:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
Can anyone update me on what type of injury Worthy actually sustained? I must have missed further information on exactly what his knee injury was. Was it just a sprain, ACL, etc?


I looked around and couldn't find an official report. The best info I found was that they were waiting for the swelling to go down for a prognosis, but I didn't find anything else.
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Offline Pack93z  
#81 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:25:42 PM(UTC)
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To illustrate the notion that our interior line defensive line / middle linebacker play wasn't the issue against the run this year.

Between the tackles as a whole.. we gave up 4.12 yards per carry.

On the edges, we have up 6.67 yards per carry over the course of the entire season and postseason.


League average per carry allowed = 4.26.

So between the tackles.. our rush defense wasn't that poor, actually above average.. off the edge.. yikes.

And just to be fair.. both edges were guilty.. one at 6.89 YPC.. the Other 6.5.


Now in terms of pass rush.. no they get little push as most 3-4 blocker consumers don't.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Yerko  
#82 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:32:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
Finally we need a better backup for Perry, and another MLB to backup, Jones, Smith, and Bishop. Hopefully Jones will develop into a better MLB next year. Certainly Bishops presence on the field will be a huge boost next season, we've missed that guy.


Are you saying that AJ Hawk is not a Packer next season?

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Offline wpr  
#83 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:37:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
Can anyone update me on what type of injury Worthy actually sustained? I must have missed further information on exactly what his knee injury was. Was it just a sprain, ACL, etc?


rotoworld:


Quote:
Latest News
Recent News
Packers DE Jerel Worthy's season-ending knee injury wasn't as serious as initially feared and is not expected to require surgery.
"From what I know, they said it was like a severe knee bruise," said Worthy. "Just something that would have really affected me if I would have went out there and played over the last few weeks." Worthy does not believe the injury will cause him to miss any significant portion of the team's offseason workouts. Jan 14 - 12:15 PM
Source: Green Bay Press-Gazette
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Offline RajiRoar  
#84 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:38:34 PM(UTC)
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Is Capers contract up?


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Offline Zero2Cool  
#85 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 12:48:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
Is Capers contract up?


I just spent a couple minutes looking this and couldn't find the answer so I was gonna ask here ... what was he originally signed with? I only found that he and the Packers game to an agreement, but not details. I think a four year deal, which I believe would mean he's up for a contract extension.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#86 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 1:16:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
Is Capers contract up?


Yes I believe so.

Latest I can find was he was extended for a year which would take him through the 2012 season.

Source
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Offline doddpower  
#87 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 1:48:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post


That's fantastic news. I still think Worthy can be an effective player, especially on the inside on passing downs, and even more so in the traditional 4-3 DT. Perhaps he won't be an impact starter, but as long as he stays motivated, he should be able to be solid depth, at worse.

Offline DakotaT  
#88 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 1:49:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Yerko Go to Quoted Post
Are you saying that AJ Hawk is not a Packer next season?



I think it depends on how much cap can be saved, because the guy is never going to be better than steady. The 3-4 features the linebackers, and if you have mediocrity at any of the positions than it carries on throughout the defense. I think Manning was drafted to replace Hawk, now whether he will be ready or not by next season remains to be seen. Manning was hurt all through training camp last year, but was a good contributor on special teams - hope he's given a chance next year.
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Offline wpr  
#89 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:21:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I think it depends on how much cap can be saved, because the guy is never going to be better than steady. The 3-4 features the linebackers, and if you have mediocrity at any of the positions than it carries on throughout the defense. I think Manning was drafted to replace Hawk, now whether he will be ready or not by next season remains to be seen. Manning was hurt all through training camp last year, but was a good contributor on special teams - hope he's given a chance next year.


Salary aside, if they have CM3, Perry on the outside and Bishop inside they can afford to have Hawk run around out there.

I am not a big Hawk fan one way or the other. He does some things adequately and other things not so well.

rotoworld wrote:
A.J. Hawk Linebacker 3/3/2011: Signed a five-year, $33.75 million contract. The deal included an $8 million signing bonus and a $1.8 million roster bonus in the first season. Annual $250,000 workout bonuses are available in years two through five. 2012: $4.4 million (+ $300,000 roster bonus), 2013: $4.9 million (+ $300,000 roster bonus), 2014: $4.9 million (+ $800,000 roster bonus), 2015: $5.4 million (+ $800,000 roster bonus), 2016: Free Agent


he is worth 5.2 mil plus 1.6 for his signing bonus on the 2013 cap.
If they release him they will have 3 years of cap to eat.
link

Quote:
D.J. Smith Linebacker 7/29/2011: Signed a four-year, $2.143 million contract. The deal included a $103,152 signing bonus. 2012: $465,000, 2013: $555,000, 2014: $645,000, 2015: Free Agent


Desmond Bishop Linebacker 1/4/2011: Signed a four-year, $19.05 million contract. The deal contains $5 million guaranteed and $2 million in roster and workout bonuses. 2012: $3.001 million, 2013: $3.464 million, 2014: $3.522 million, 2015: Free Agent
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Offline Gaycandybacon  
#90 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:39:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Yerko Go to Quoted Post
Are you saying that AJ Hawk is not a Packer next season?



I forgot his name. Oops! But... I would like to see him gone. He's degressed since the superbowl year tremendously. I could say he hasn't been good since the 09' season to be honest. He may never be injured but the guy isn't that fast and pretty much a liability in coverage.
Offline Gaycandybacon  
#91 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:41:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
Salary aside, if they have CM3, Perry on the outside and Bishop inside they can afford to have Hawk run around out there.

I am not a big Hawk fan one way or the other. He does some things adequately and other things not so well.



he is worth 5.2 mil plus 1.6 for his signing bonus on the 2013 cap.
If they release him they will have 3 years of cap to eat.
link



Trading Hawk is the only way of getting rid of him at this point then huh?
Offline Porforis  
#92 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:46:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Mortfini Go to Quoted Post
Having said that you don't know how this game would have went if we had a few more players back
Worthy
Perry


At best, I'd say we would have been gashed for 100 less yards and that's giving a LOT of credit to Worthy and Perry. And even then, it'd be pretty pitiful. We were the healthiest we've been all season, if we're going to use injuries as an excuse then this is probably the worst time of year to use it.
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Offline wpr  
#93 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:54:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
Trading Hawk is the only way of getting rid of him at this point then huh?


good luck with that.
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Offline wpr  
#94 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 2:57:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
I forgot his name. Oops! But... I would like to see him gone. He's degressed since the superbowl year tremendously. I could say he hasn't been good since the 09' season to be honest. He may never be injured but the guy isn't that fast and pretty much a liability in coverage.


really?

Code:

Season     Comb Total Ast     Sck     PDef     Int         
2012     120     81     39     3.0     0     --             
2011     84     53     31     1.5     3     --             
2010     111     72     39     0.5     10     3              
2009     89     67     22     1.0     2     2             
2008     86     67     19     3.0     1     --             
2007     105     78     27     1.0     4     1             
2006     119     82     37     3.5     6     2     
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Offline Pack93z  
#95 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:07:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I think it depends on how much cap can be saved, because the guy is never going to be better than steady. The 3-4 features the linebackers, and if you have mediocrity at any of the positions than it carries on throughout the defense. I think Manning was drafted to replace Hawk, now whether he will be ready or not by next season remains to be seen. Manning was hurt all through training camp last year, but was a good contributor on special teams - hope he's given a chance next year.


I don't think there is anyway the Hawk is not a Packer next season, for several reasons.

1. This was his best year in Green Bay to date as a whole. He has physical limitations in his game, speed mostly, but he is and always has been as consistent as we have. I am not his biggest fan when looking at value in terms of his play vs his contract, but the guy makes plays.

I would love to have a ass kicker like a young Ray Lewis or Patrick Willis.. or a Bowman. Bishop was missed this season.. he has that element to his game, he just lacks blue chip speed.


2. 4.8 Million of cap dollars to be absorbed yet.


Hawk is being used as a scapegoat this season.. hasn't always been the case, but the guy produced this year.

Message modified by user Monday, January 14, 2013 3:34:59 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#96 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:29:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
Trading Hawk is the only way of getting rid of him at this point then huh?


Trade or cut makes no difference. We would gain about 2 million in cap space if we move him before next season.
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Offline Pack93z  
#97 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:32:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Trade or cut makes no difference. We would gain about 2 million in cap space if we move him before next season.


Bingo.

Cap number 7,050,000 - Cap hit to move him.. 4,800,000
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#98 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:35:38 PM(UTC)
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For those saying or thinking that we should let Capers go and move back to 4-3. Main question. Can Clay play MLB? Because he is not going to be a DE in the 4-3.

The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline play2win  
#99 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:57:50 PM(UTC)
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It really is amazing to me how poorly we are equipped to play the 3-4 defense, and how much better equipped we currently are to play a 4-3 as things stand today. Capers has made some really poor calls with our defense, and especially so when it mattered most over these past two seasons. He was the DC for the worst defense in NFL history.

In his defense, I will say Ted Thompson didn't get the job completely finished when it came to the personnel he has had to work with. Yes, we drafted 6 on his side of the ball last year. However, there was just so much more to do. A GM cannot continually count on first year players to turn one segment or group around. That is what he did with our pass rush, and he failed to adjust after losing his prize piece, Perry, for the season in week 4. He should have signed some insurance opposite Matthews, especially knowing that area of his defense is what hurt the secondary most the previous year.

We should make the switch to the 4-3, like, pronto!

Perry should flourish at DE. Make Matthews your WSLB, the playmaker. Hawk, opposite at SSLB with Bish in the middle. If Hawk proves unable to work out there as a starter, then we'll have a very high priced, experienced backup - but I think he'd be fine with this switch, maybe better. Draft another DE or two, and a good backup NT and we should be set.

If I were Ted, I would load up on both lines this draft, and allow for either a premiere WR or LB talent to be an early choice weighed against the line talent available should one fall.

3-4 defenses call for bigger players than we have, and faster players who are better in coverage as well. To me, Perry is no sure thing as a pass rushing LB in a 3-4 with the coverage responsibilities. Pickett won't last forever, especially if this staff refuses to get the players here for a reasonable rotation. Raji has no backup. None. And, what do we really have at DE?

3 years after winning SB XLV, maybe we will get a pass rush and a more stout defense. Switching to a 4-3 could really help. Can Capers do that effectively? Probably. Then again, maybe not. But, whoever's responsibility this winds up being is going to need more than what Ted gave Capers in 2011 and 2012.
Offline play2win  
#100 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:59:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post


Hawk is being used as a scapegoat this season.. hasn't always been the case, but the guy produced this year.


I think he was better than many people may think.
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