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Porforis  
#81 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:08:49 PM(UTC)
Cal2GreenBay said: Go to Quoted Post
Aaron has peaked, sad for me to say,
Alex smith was leading stats and got pulled for is guy, you can see why,
Kaepernick is the future and it is now.

This happened to Farve too.


Favre's only 100+ QB rating season was 2009 with the vikes. With the Packers, he had 5 years in the 70s and 5 years with 20+ INTs. In his best year, he threw 39 TDs and 13 INTs (1996). In his worst year, he threw 24 picks with only 19 TDs.

Rodgers has had one sub-100 season (his first year, 93.8) and in his worst year, threw 13 picks with 28 TDs. In his best year (last year), he threw for 45 TDs and 6 INTs.

This year, he "dropped off" to 39 TDs and 8 INTs, a QB rating of 108, 4295 yards and a 67.2 completion percentage behind a swiss cheese offensive line.

I have absolutely no idea how anybody that's watched football for more than 5 years could start talking about Aaron "peaking", and then start talking about how Alex smith was pulled for someone better and then bring up Favre. I don't know if it was your intention to criticize Rodgers but it sounded that way and out of everybody on this team, I think there's probably only 3 people you could criticize less (Cobb, Jones, Matthews). And I don't think you realize just how incredibly blessed we are.
Pack93z  
#82 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 3:16:30 PM(UTC)
To the OP.. no we don't need to completely reload.


We need to fill some gaps short term and long term, but I just don't buy that we are greatly going to turn over the roster of this team.

We need OLine Help.. probably WR depth, and another impact player in the front 7 of the defense and potentially an veteran in the secondary if Woodson doesn't return.

Sure we could use blue chip talent in several areas, but we can win with a blue chipper at every position. More Detail...
Cal2GreenBay  
#83 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 8:04:53 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
Favre's only 100+ QB rating season was 2009 with the vikes. With the Packers, he had 5 years in the 70s and 5 years with 20+ INTs. In his best year, he threw 39 TDs and 13 INTs (1996). In his worst year, he threw 24 picks with only 19 TDs.

Rodgers has had one sub-100 season (his first year, 93.8) and in his worst year, threw 13 picks with 28 TDs. In his best year (last year), he threw for 45 TDs and 6 INTs.

This year, he "dropped off" to 39 TDs and 8 INTs, a QB rating of 108, 4295 yards and a 67.2 completion percentage behind a swiss cheese offensive line.

I have absolutely no idea how anybody that's watched football for more than 5 years could start talking about Aaron "peaking", and then start talking about how Alex smith was pulled for someone better and then bring up Favre. I don't know if it was your intention to criticize Rodgers but it sounded that way and out of everybody on this team, I think there's probably only 3 people you could criticize less (Cobb, Jones, Matthews). And I don't think you realize just how incredibly blessed we are.


Let me rephrase since people seem to let their sensitivities overrule what was said.

This was absolutely NOT a criticism on Rodgers. He is the best he can be. He is AT his peak and is as good as a traditional QB can get. He was the primary reason the packers were even competing in that game. THAT is what I said and nothing else.

what I was explaining, was that in the midst of being blessed with having the best traditional QB in the league, we are also witnessing an evolution of the QB position right before our eyes.

Kaepernick, RG3 and Wilson are ushering in a new QB style that has no answer at this point. This is NOT the wildcat and its NOT a fad. It's not going away and traditionalist are not going to like it. All of the NFL alum and analysts all say so as well.

Teams are going to have to change with the times or get left behind. To compete with the new type of QB, teams need super althletic defenses to catch them. Only the niners and Seahawks presently have that.

What I said was, as good as Aaron is, he will need more dynamic players around him to compete with teams like Seatttle and San Francisco. Aaron's not going to run any faster and transform into a running QB, and Green Bay deosnt need him to be. But he does need help.

The landscape of the NFL has changed in 2 seasons since the Super Bowl. We have to evolve with it.
Be a traditionalist, and we will be one and out of the playoffs for a long time and not sniff the Super Bowl.
That's where we are all disagreeing,

Time will tell.
Porforis  
#84 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 8:43:55 PM(UTC)
Cal2GreenBay said: Go to Quoted Post
Let me rephrase since people seem to let their sensitivities overrule what was said.

This was absolutely NOT a criticism on Rodgers. He is the best he can be. He is AT his peak and is as good as a traditional QB can get. He was the primary reason the packers were even competing in that game. THAT is what I said and nothing else.

what I was explaining, was that in the midst of being blessed with having the best traditional QB in the league, we are also witnessing an evolution of the QB position right before our eyes.

Kaepernick, RG3 and Wilson are ushering in a new QB style that has no answer at this point. This is NOT the wildcat and its NOT a fad. It's not going away and traditionalist are not going to like it. All of the NFL alum and analysts all say so as well.

Teams are going to have to change with the times or get left behind. To compete with the new type of QB, teams need super althletic defenses to catch them. Only the niners and Seahawks presently have that.

What I said was, as good as Aaron is, he will need more dynamic players around him to compete with teams like Seatttle and San Francisco. Aaron's not going to run any faster and transform into a running QB, and Green Bay deosnt need him to be. But he does need help.

The landscape of the NFL has changed in 2 seasons since the Super Bowl. We have to evolve with it.
Be a traditionalist, and we will be one and out of the playoffs for a long time and not sniff the Super Bowl.
That's where we are all disagreeing,

Time will tell.


Ah, I get you now. Personally, I think after a couple years defenses WILL adapt to this style of offense. Whether we can win it all in the interim or not depends more on our defense than offense, IMO. If a large portion of the league changed their offenses to closer resemble the niners and redskins, wouldn't it be BENEFITIAL to have something different, so that defenses aren't practicing against similar style offenses every week during games?

Anyhow, time will tell indeed. I'd be full of myself and lying if I said that I thought I had any better idea than you how things will turn out in the next half decade or so.
doddpower  
#85 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 9:33:49 PM(UTC)
Porforis said: Go to Quoted Post
Ah, I get you now. Personally, I think after a couple years defenses WILL adapt to this style of offense. Whether we can win it all in the interim or not depends more on our defense than offense, IMO. If a large portion of the league changed their offenses to closer resemble the niners and redskins, wouldn't it be BENEFITIAL to have something different, so that defenses aren't practicing against similar style offenses every week during games?

Anyhow, time will tell indeed. I'd be full of myself and lying if I said that I thought I had any better idea than you how things will turn out in the next half decade or so.


Defenses always adjust to everything (well, at least the good ones). That's how the NFL works. Someone comes up with a new scheme, and teams work to try to find a way to solve it. It may take awhile, or it may not, that really just depends on coaching, schemes, and as always and most importantly, talent. The read option probably will be around in some form for the long-term, probably just like most teams run some variation of West Coast, etc. The main question is, how effective it will be in the long run. Guys like RG3, Russell Wilson, and even Colin Kap are very rare, and even those guys need many pieces around them to make it work. For every one RG3, there will be 20 Joe Webb's. Of course it's incredibly hard to stop a truly gifted athlete on an elite team that is very well coached. That will always be the case, regardless of the specific schemes used to run the plays. It's all an equilibrium in the NFL, as in nature. Less talented and poorer coached teams will usually lose to the better talented and coached team. One of the most talented 'new-aged' QB's in Cam Newton has yet to have a winning season, despite being more talented than Colin Kap. or Russell Wilson. The biggest difference between those teams is defense and coaching, imo.
Cal2GreenBay  
#86 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 9:53:03 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Defenses always adjust to everything (well, at least the good ones). That's how the NFL works. Someone comes up with a new scheme, and teams work to try to find a way to solve it. It may take awhile, or it may not, that really just depends on coaching, schemes, and as always and most importantly, talent. The read option probably will be around in some form for the long-term, probably just like most teams run some variation of West Coast, etc. The main question is, how effective it will be in the long run. Guys like RG3, Russell Wilson, and even Colin Kap are very rare, and even those guys need many pieces around them to make it work. For every one RG3, there will be 20 Joe Webb's. Of course it's incredibly hard to stop a truly gifted athlete on an elite team that is very well coached. That will always be the case, regardless of the specific schemes used to run the plays. It's all an equilibrium in the NFL, as in nature. Less talented and poorer coached teams will usually lose to the better talented and coached team. One of the most talented 'new-aged' QB's in Cam Newton has yet to have a winning season, despite being more talented than Colin Kap. or Russell Wilson. The biggest difference between those teams is defense and coaching, imo.


Cam is NOT more talented than Russell Wilson, Kapernick, or RG3. There is a reason I left him out of this conversation for dynamic quarterbacks.

Newton is NOT a cerebral quarterback. He is a bigger stronger, slightly slower Michael Vick.
He runs a very simplistic offense in Carolina, and it's the only one he is able to comprehend.
The reason they don't win is because that offense doesn't work in the NFL. He puts up big numbers mainly after the team has lost the game or they are in a losing season and other teams have dialed it down when they play them.

Carolina is a mess and Newton has plateaued. He can't even "peak" because he doesn't really improve.

The three I mentioned are all winning. They all can process information and read defenses and exploit weaknesses., Kapernick outplayed Rodgers, AND Brady. Keep that in mind.

I would argue that Kaepernick is the most talented, not Newton.

Defenses figure things out yes. The point we should focus on is that really physical teams have figured out the packers. The giants and 49ers will probably not lose to the packers in the near future. I would argue the same will go for Seattle. To beat the top tier teams, Green Bay will need to complement Aaron's greatness with some elite athletes, That needs to happen way before defenses figure out how to stop the read option.
doddpower  
#87 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 10:28:18 PM(UTC)
Cal2GreenBay said: Go to Quoted Post
Cam is NOT more talented than Russell Wilson, Kapernick, or RG3. There is a reason I left him out of this conversation for dynamic quarterbacks.

Newton is NOT a cerebral quarterback. He is a bigger stronger, slightly slower Michael Vick.
He runs a very simplistic offense in Carolina, and it's the only one he is able to comprehend.
The reason they don't win is because that offense doesn't work in the NFL. He puts up big numbers mainly after the team has lost the game or they are in a losing season and other teams have dialed it down when they play them.

Carolina is a mess and Newton has plateaued. He can't even "peak" because he doesn't really improve.

The three I mentioned are all winning. They all can process information and read defenses and exploit weaknesses., Kapernick outplayed Rodgers, AND Brady. Keep that in mind.

I would argue that Kaepernick is the most talented, not Newton.

Defenses figure things out yes. The point we should focus on is that really physical teams have figured out the packers. The giants and 49ers will probably not lose to the packers in the near future. I would argue the same will go for Seattle. To beat the top tier teams, Green Bay will need to complement Aaron's greatness with some elite athletes, That needs to happen way before defenses figure out how to stop the read option.


I agree that Cam Newton isn't as intelligent as Russell Wilson. He is, however, more athletic, unquestionably. Bigger, stronger, as fast or faster. As Tom Brady has shown and continues to do so, the mental aspect of the game often matters most. But there is no denying that the other pieces around Newton can't even be compared to that of Seattle of the 49'ers. The Panthers defense is pathetic. They have some pieces on offense, but they pay three very talented RBs a ton of money and hardly use them. The coaching has been fairly pathetic, as well. As Pack93z always says, it's important to not over inflate the QB position. There is so many other factors that go into it, and that is especially the case with the 49'ers and Seahawks. As good as the QBs on those two teams have played, the rest of the team has played as good or better.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the direct "Colin Kaepernick outplayed so-and-so" cliches. On a team like the 49'ers, that's just so bogus, and insulting to the rest of the team. I can almost guarantee Rodgers would play much better against the Packers defense rather than the 49'ers, as well, especially with their offensive line. QB's don't play each other, they play opposing defenses.

Kaepernick may be overall more talented than Newton, but how successful would he be on the Carolina Panthers roster and with their coaches? Jim Harbaugh always seems to get the most out of his QBs. Again, there are so many variables it's just not a comparison I buy into. Is he playing much better in one half of a season and one playoff game? Yes. Cam Newton actually played very well his rookie year too, but just like Aaron Rodgers in 2009, his defense often let him down. One cannot deny some of the amazing games Cam played his rookie year in which he did more than his share to win, but still came up with a loss. With that being said, I live in North Carolina and almost everyone was sure that Cam Newton was the next elite QB. I maintained my skepticism because I needed to see more than a full season of solid play from him to be a believer. The same applies to any other young QB as well. Although the defenses of Seattle and San Fran. would keep many QBs competitive, to be fair. I have no doubt Cam Newton would be very successful as the QB of the 49'ers.

Additionally, I just feel like some are putting too much emphasis in a handful of games by Kaepernick. I 'do science' for a living, so I simply have to have a substantial data set to make definitive statements. I believe he is playing like a really good QB on an even better team. Beyond that, I'm just not comfortable saying anything else at this point, as it's only conjecture beyond that. It's fine to do so, I suppose, it's just I and many others will need to see more. But unquestionably, the 49'ers will be competitive with either Kaepernick or Alex Smith at QB. Alex Smith was one of the highest rated QBs in the league for the first part of the season. They are running a great system in San Francisco, from top to bottom. It's impressive, and goes far beyond the QB, imo.
Cal2GreenBay  
#88 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 10:44:31 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
I agree that Cam Newton isn't as intelligent as Russell Wilson. He is, however, more athletic, unquestionably. Bigger, stronger, as fast or faster. As Tom Brady has shown and continues to do so, the mental aspect of the game often matters most. But there is no denying that the other pieces around Newton can't even be compared to that of Seattle of the 49'ers. The Panthers defense is pathetic. They have some pieces on offense, but they pay three very talented RBs a ton of money and hardly use them. The coaching has been fairly pathetic, as well. As Pack93z always says, it's important to not over inflate the QB position. There is so many other factors that go into it, and that is especially the case with the 49'ers and Seahawks. As good as the QBs on those two teams have played, the rest of the team has played as good or better.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the direct "Colin Kaepernick outplayed so-and-so" cliches. On a team like the 49'ers, that's just so bogus, and insulting to the rest of the team. I can almost guarantee Rodgers would play much better against the Packers defense rather than the 49'ers, as well, especially with their offensive line. QB's don't play each other, they play opposing defenses.

Kaepernick may be overall more talented than Newton, but how successful would he be on the Carolina Panthers roster and with their coaches? Jim Harbaugh always seems to get the most out of his QBs. Again, there are so many variables it's just not a comparison I buy into. Is he playing much better in one half of a season and one playoff game? Yes. Cam Newton actually played very well his rookie year too, but just like Aaron Rodgers in 2009, his defense often let him down. One cannot deny some of the amazing games Cam played his rookie year in which he did more than his share to win, but still came up with a loss. With that being said, I live in North Carolina and almost everyone was sure that Cam Newton was the next elite QB. I maintained my skepticism because I needed to see more than a full season of solid play from him to be a believer. The same applies to any other young QB as well. Although the defenses of Seattle and San Fran. would keep many QBs competitive, to be fair. I have no doubt Cam Newton would be very successful as the QB of the 49'ers.

Additionally, I just feel like some are putting too much emphasis in a handful of games by Kaepernick. I 'do science' for a living, so I simply have to have a substantial data set to make definitive statements. I believe he is playing like a really good QB on an even better team. Beyond that, I'm just not comfortable saying anything else at this point, as it's only conjecture beyond that. It's fine to do so, I suppose, it's just I and many others will need to see more. But unquestionably, the 49'ers will be competitive with either Kaepernick or Alex Smith at QB. Alex Smith was one of the highest rated QBs in the league for the first part of the season. They are running a great system in San Francisco, from top to bottom. It's impressive, and goes far beyond the QB, imo.


Harbuagh switched to Kaepernick because he knew that smith could only take the team so far with his limitations. Yes, they won with Smith, but like you said, he has a better situation than Newton. You cannot directly compare QBs because of all the factors, but as some point you have to consider them as a direct factor in their success, not just their team. Brett Farve would've struggled on a bad team as well. But that doesn't mean that the converse is guaranteed. I don't believe newton would be as successful as Kaepernick if he was on the 49ers.

doddpower  
#89 Posted : Monday, January 14, 2013 11:03:58 PM(UTC)
Cal2GreenBay said: Go to Quoted Post
Harbuagh switched to Kaepernick because he knew that smith could only take the team so far with his limitations. Yes, they won with Smith, but like you said, he has a better situation than Newton. You cannot directly compare QBs because of all the factors, but as some point you have to consider them as a direct factor in their success, not just their team. Brett Farve would've struggled on a bad team as well. But that doesn't mean that the converse is guaranteed. I don't believe newton would be as successful as Kaepernick if he was on the 49ers.



Of course QBs are strongly correlated to a teams success. That's a given. This is especially true on some teams more than others though. For example the Packers are QB centric. They depend on their QB far too much, imo, and fail to give him enough help both in terms of coaching and play-calling, and defense. Teams like Seattle and 49'ers are built much differently though. They are both built as true teams, meaning that every player contributes significantly to their success, including the QB, but they just aren't as QB-centric as a team like the Packers, the Colts under Manning, the Patriots, etc. Even if Alex Smith was still the starter, the 49'ers would likely be competing for a Super Bowl, despite his limitations, because of the way the team plays the game. I still think they should have been in the Super Bowl last year if not for two unbelievable special teams blunders. Kaepernick may be and very likely is more talented than Alex Smith, but the achievements of the rest of the team cannot be minimized, is my bigger point.

So yeah, any QB has a lot to do with the success of a team, but some more so than others. Some teams can have great success with only average to slightly above average QB play while others certainly cannot.
Cal2GreenBay  
#90 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:00:34 PM(UTC)
If you all saw the Atlanta-49ers game, you could see that this dynamic QB thing is not a gimmick and is not going away.

Kaepernick beat the Falcons with his arm and not his legs.
The threat of his running forced the Falcons front 7 to defend the outside lanes,
and that opened up the middle for the niners running backs.

Again, defenses cannot account for ALL of it.
They can "contain" a running QB in the read option, but if
that QB can also throw, then there's not really anything they
can do. Baltimore is in some serious trouble.

As for the Packers, Aaron doesn't scare defenses to defend the outside running lanes.

He scares them with his passing ability. But if we don't have a dynamic running back to scare defenses, then we will continue to be
one dimensional.

Aaron is the best passing QB in the league.

The league in the future will have the best passing QB in the league
who can run. That future is in front of us and is playing in the Superbowl right now.

We need a dynamic running back to keep pace and compete, or we won't sniff the superbowl again.
Pack93z  
#91 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:26:21 PM(UTC)
To the OP.. don't we in a way reload each season under Ted. He is not shy about keeping youth over age, he is not afraid to keep a un-drafted free agent over a drafted player. We are in a constant flux of reloading.

And in terms of starting players, yes we need a couple more impact players, most notably in the box on defense.. but for the most part our depth is inexpensive and serviceable.

If anything, I think we really need to look at the training staff and injury prevention as we seem to be consistently placing high numbers on IR or the inactive lists. Some of that talent is impact type talent at their positions.. IE Bishop and Bulaga, a healthy Bulaga.

I really think we are missing a head knocker of a player on defense to demand excellence and effort snap in and out.. someone on the field that is going to hold players accountable. It doesn't have to be lambasting them in the open, but an "understanding" in the huddle that shit will be dealt with off the field.

I firmly believe this team isn't that far away from being able to get there..
Cal2GreenBay  
#92 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:40:51 PM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
To the OP.. don't we in a way reload each season under Ted. He is not shy about keeping youth over age, he is not afraid to keep a un-drafted free agent over a drafted player. We are in a constant flux of reloading.

And in terms of starting players, yes we need a couple more impact players, most notably in the box on defense.. but for the most part our depth is inexpensive and serviceable.

If anything, I think we really need to look at the training staff and injury prevention as we seem to be consistently placing high numbers on IR or the inactive lists. Some of that talent is impact type talent at their positions.. IE Bishop and Bulaga, a healthy Bulaga.

I really think we are missing a head knocker of a player on defense to demand excellence and effort snap in and out.. someone on the field that is going to hold players accountable. It doesn't have to be lambasting them in the open, but an "understanding" in the huddle that shit will be dealt with off the field.

I firmly believe this team isn't that far away from being able to get there..


Hey nice post again.

Yes, I do agree that Thompson reloads and is frugal about cost and youth vs. veterans.

The thing I'm noticing is that Thompson's reload was based on the landscape of the NFL as we saw it a year ago. But within this year, there has been an emergence of a different style that we are not designed to stop/account for.

The best example I could give are the 90-93 SF 49ers. They were always reloading and had the offense to handle the rest of the NFL. However, they were NOT designed to stop the Dallas Cowboys.

The Cowboys had a massive offensive line that had not been seen before and a stout running game with a young QB(Aikman) with a strong arm. Within a year, those young players of the Cowboys changed the landscape of the NFL under all that reloading from the 49ers.

The niners could NOT beat the Cowboys for 3 years, until they found a way.

The same example goes for the niners and Green Bay. The late 90s Packers were younger, faster, and more dynamic than the 49ers. They only got over the hump when a DYNAMIC player emerged(Owens).

This comes back to the current packers. They remind me of the early nineties 49ers with a team that can outpace most of the league.
BUT there is a new dynamic team on the block that they do not match up well against. The 49ers and in some respects, the Seattle Seahawks. Both teams have dynamic young QBs and super athletic defenses.

Thompson's reloading for the near term has to be predicated on how to solve matching up against these teams. Even with the full squad of packers players, I do not believe it would have made much difference against that San Francisco team.

Like you mentioned, we need some real impact players on defense AND on offense who are game changers. Easier said than done.

Rebuilding with drafting or signing low cost, servicable character guys who don't have break away speed or can't disrupt the line of scrimmage is not going to get us past the niners or seahawks next season. In my opinion.

It just feels like the Packers are not upper tier anymore but just under and that gap are those impact players. If we don't get them, we will always be on the cusp for a long time to come.
play2win  
#93 Posted : Wednesday, January 23, 2013 3:37:35 PM(UTC)
Cal2GreenBay,

That player is Eric Walden, and many others like him. Kind of scrap heap players we are putting into positions that are really quite important to our moving forward. I understand he got the position due to injury to Perry, but, there he still is, unable to provide the consistent pressure, sacks, coverage and contain the position opposite Matthews requires, for a second year in a row.

I'm hoping Ted will see that he has Aaron Rodgers, in his prime, along with some other great players in their primes, and that he takes measures to insure those opportunities for success with this special group of players are not wasted.
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