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PackFanWithTwins  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:46:05 PM(UTC)
What is the biggest problem the Schemes, the Talent or Attitude.

I think it is attitude. This team has talent, and we have seen both the offense and defense click. Yet both sides can be so up and down. One week they can come out and run over the opposition, the next they can come out and look like they should be in last place. Only to get pissed off and return on a mission and destroy the opponents. Both sides have leaders, but I don't see a player that has that ability to get the team pumped week in and out.

On defense, Raji, Woodson, Tramon, Hawk, Pickett and Matthews. Great players, work hard, help out the younger guys, and lead, but none of them stand out as emotional leaders. Guys who get in anothers face and jack them up when doing wrong, or pumping them up when they do good. Offense is the same, Rodgers excellent example of leader, with work and dedication. But he keeps himself so much in check during games, the rest of the offense seems to emulate him. And quite possibly McCarthy.

Remember the first couple years of the switch to the 3-4 and the first years of Matthews. Kevin Greene running and bouncing around, his actions and attitude seemed contagious especially with Clay. I remember how Brett, on the field, getting in the face of defenders like Sapp, how the energy and expression he showed trickled down to those around him. How Reggie without have to be loud and boistrous, got the energy flowing in that defense. Where or who are the guys that could do that for this team going forward.

Has this team as a whole assumed the demenor of McCarthy, Thompson and Capers to somewhat of a detriment. I just don't see the energy I once saw with the team. That leader on defense might have been Nick. But if they can find one or two guys to stand up and get both sides of the ball energized next year, look out.
PackerTraxx  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:01:11 PM(UTC)
I think you might have something here. But we sure could use an influx of some talent also. We are questionable at RB at best, we haven't replaced Collins, center is nothing more than adequate, O tackles are health questions, we have no good DEs, Woody has slipped so we could use a corner with size, who knows what's going to happen at TE, an elite receiver would be outstanding, we need a good ILB and OLB(finger crossed for Bishop and Perry), but we have one of the best QBs in the league so that'a a good start.
Pack93z  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 5:36:07 PM(UTC)
I would agree that this has more impact as well.. we seem to be flat often. Some of that comes down from Mike McCarthy as well.. being calm and well measured has its place most of the time in this life.. but sometimes, you just have to come bat shit unglued.


I think as well, that some of the offenses problem was how over the course of the season, Aaron became wore down and less fiery.. probably just trying to make it through with the toll of injuries. Over the second half of the season he didn't seem to be having fun. Sometimes caught on the sidelines, he had that ho hum attitude in place of his generally intense one. Also on the field, he seems spent in place of his smiling and somewhat jovial nature. I think that carried over to the offensive performance. I think the last completely plugged in game was the Texan game.


Anyway.. I agree we lack the emotional leaders. We talked about it in the preseason.. and we are still talking abou it now. Bishop may have been one.. I still believe in time, Worthy might become one. Someone that fires them up and demands it remain there.
dfosterf  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:02:08 PM(UTC)
Trenches.

PUMP, PUMP PUMP the trenches. Make our QB comfy, not the other one.
RajiRoar  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 6:11:31 PM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post


Anyway.. I agree we lack the emotional leaders. We talked about it in the preseason.. and we are still talking abou it now. Bishop may have been one.. I still believe in time, Worthy might become one. Someone that fires the up and demands it remain there.



when they came here to Seattle, Worthy really stood out as a guy who was getting pumped up for the game, me and my fellows all noticed. The guy was all over the place.

in a good way.
macbob  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:52:21 PM(UTC)
I've been becoming less and less enamored with MM's offensive scheme.

I'm tired of the lip service that Mike McCarthy provides on running the ball. No, I don't want our offense to be primarily a running game, not with the way the rules favor the passing game. But at the same time, we can't afford to go one-dimensional, allow the defensive backs to concentrate solely on covering their man and allow the DL to tee off on the QB. We need to make the safeties, etc at least think twice (or even once, dammit) about having to honor that fake handoff and give our receivers some help in getting separation.

I thought our offensive performance in the 49ers game was night and day from the first half to the second (and similarly, but in reverse, I thought the same about the Seahawks game earlier in the season).

a) Too many plays from the shotgun, not enough under center. Running from a regular formation helps your play action passing game. However, you have to run plays from under center to get this benefit—shotgun formation diminishes your running game's ability to help your passing game, reducing it to a draw play.

First half of the 49ers game we had a much better split than the second half: 22 plays the first half, 12 were shotgun and 10 were under center. 38 plays the second half, 33 shotgun, 5 under center.

b) Too many of our running plays are draw plays out of the shotgun formation. 8 of the 13 runs during the game were run from the shotgun. There IS a difference—Dujuan Harris' 18 yd TD run in the first half was NOT from the shotgun.

c) And there are just too many times where Mike McCarthy abandons the run and our offense struggles. 1st half of the Seahawks game, 27 out of 30 plays were passing plays and we scored 0 pts. 2nd half of the 49ers game—4 running plays and over 30 passes—we scored 3 pts until a score in the last minute during garbage time with the game out of reach.

Frankly, I was worried during our first possession when Mike McCarthy called 3 passing plays and we went 3 and out. The only one of the 3 we completed was the first play, which was the only one of the 3 not from the shotgun. But I thought Mike McCarthy called a good first half after that: Dujuan Harris ran the ball 9 times in the first half, gained 47 yds (over 5 yards per carry). Run/pass ratio was pretty good (9 runs, 13 passes), though 4 of the 9 runs were from the shotgun.

The offense moved the ball pretty well the first half, scoring TDs two of the four times we had the ball (the punt after our first 3 and out and an interception ended the other two). If it weren't for a muffed punt we'd have been winning at half time.

In the second half, Harris carried the ball on the first two plays and gained 3 yards each carry. His final stats at the end of the game were 11 carries for 53 yards (4.8 yds/carry).

That's right—the last time Harris ran the ball were those first two plays of the second half. (note: both were from the shotgun)

Next series, Randall Cobb gained 26 yards on two carries, both from the shotgun. Those two carries were our last running plays of the game.

For those who would argue that we were behind and needed to pass to catch up in the 49ers game: the series where Cobb carried the ball was the one where we kicked a field goal to tie the game after having driven down to the 49ers 15 yard line.

49ers went down the field the next series and took a 31-24 lead.

There was over 7 minutes left in the 3rd quarter, we're down by 1 score, and never run the ball again.

First series we ran 6 plays out of the shotgun formation, all passes. First two were incomplete. We got a first down on a 17 yard scramble by Aaron Rodgers on 3rd and 10. The next 3 plays netted all of 4 yards.

The defense continued their collapse, and the next series we gave up another TD. With the score now 38-24 had no choice but to pass the rest of the way.

Yes, the defense deserved a lot of blame for the loss. But Mike McCarthy didn't help them out at all offensively in the second half.
Zero2Cool  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:33:11 PM(UTC)
Defense Rankings (of who played atleast 25% snaps) from ProFootballFocus - link to how they grade.

3 - 4 DE out of 32
  • 7th B.J. Raji
  • 13th Mike Neal
  • 32nd Jerel Worthy



3 - 4 OLB out of 34
  • 2nd Clay Matthews
  • 28th Dezman Moses
  • 34th Erik Walden



DT/NT out of 85
  • 37th Ryan Pickett



ILB out of 53
  • 10th Brad Jones
  • 20th A.J. Hawk
  • 28th D.J. Smith



CB out of 113
  • 3rd Casey Hayward
  • 12th Sam Shields
  • 40th Davon House
  • 60th Tramon Williams



S out of 88
  • 17th Morgan Burnett
  • 32nd Jerron McMillian
  • 37th Charles Woodson
  • 50th M.D. Jennings
User is suspended until 5/28/2018 11:54:40 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:48:08 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Defense Rankings (of who played atleast 25% snaps) from ProFootballFocus

3 - 4 DE out of 32
  • 7th B.J. Raji
  • 13th Mike Neal
  • 32nd Jerel Worthy



3 - 4 OLB out of 34
  • 2nd Clay Matthews
  • 28th Dezman Moses
  • 34th Erik Walden



DT/NT out of 85
  • 37th Ryan Pickett



ILB out of 53
  • 10th Brad Jones
  • 20th A.J. Hawk
  • 28th D.J. Smith



CB out of 113
  • 3rd Casey Hayward
  • 12th Sam Shields
  • 40th Davon House
  • 60th Tramon Williams



S out of 88
  • 17th Morgan Burnett
  • 32nd Jerron McMillian
  • 37th Charles Woodson
  • 50th M.D. Jennings




Your stats tell me that we are weak up the guts. The biggest problem with this team is that we lose the time of possession battle against good teams because our offensive line and running backs are subpar. Improve the running back position and run blocking - and the defense will automatically get better by being fresher. Oh, and improve the linebacking corp as well.
RajiRoar  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:48:35 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Defense Rankings (of who played atleast 25% snaps) from ProFootballFocus

3 - 4 DE out of 32
  • 7th B.J. Raji
  • 13th Mike Neal
  • 32nd Jerel Worthy



3 - 4 OLB out of 34
  • 2nd Clay Matthews
  • 28th Dezman Moses
  • 34th Erik Walden



DT/NT out of 85
  • 37th Ryan Pickett



ILB out of 53
  • 10th Brad Jones
  • 20th A.J. Hawk
  • 28th D.J. Smith



CB out of 113
  • 3rd Casey Hayward
  • 12th Sam Shields
  • 40th Davon House
  • 60th Tramon Williams



S out of 88
  • 17th Morgan Burnett
  • 32nd Jerron McMillian
  • 37th Charles Woodson
  • 50th M.D. Jennings




what exatly is this ranking?
TheKanataThrilla  
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:31:06 AM(UTC)
Why is Capers always upstairs and not on the field? I think it would certainly help if the Defensive Coordinator actually had the ability to get in some of his guys faces and talk to them like men during the game.
Wade  
#11 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 7:59:57 AM(UTC)
DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Your stats tell me that we are weak up the guts. The biggest problem with this team is that we lose the time of possession battle against good teams because our offensive line and running backs are subpar. Improve the running back position and run blocking - and the defense will automatically get better by being fresher. Oh, and improve the linebacking corp as well.


Weak up the guts. Yes. (IMO the only exception to this is Pickett, and he was hurt against SF.)

Agree that OL is subpar. Been saying this for years. Sitton is stud. Rest are just guys. (I know people like Bulaga, but IMO they've overrated him. He may be good enough with Sitton next to him, but not if Sitton has to cover for the guy on the other side as well.

What I would like to see is have Bulaga and Newhouse battle it out for RT, someone (and I don't mean a 7th rounder) to battle Dietrich Smith for center, and someone to battle Lang for LG (also not a 7th rounder), and someone to battle Sherrod for LT (and, yes, not a 7th rounder here as well). Bank on me to use the "OL OL OL" refrain more than once this offseason!

That said, I don't think the RBs are the problem. I think that Harris/Green/Grant/even Starks all have it in them to be "the guy" on a given Sunday. I would have no problem if the Packers "went with the hot hand" every week, did it by committee, or both. And, much as I think the OL as a whole is subpar, I think you can run regularly over Dietrich-Smith/Sitton. But as macbob and others have pointed out, the coaching staff must truly be committed to run as an option. And not just to running out of the shotgun formation.

It's bad enough when, because the run isn't working early, they abandon it too quick. But it made no sense at all for them to stop giving the rock to Harris in the SF game and run everything out of the option. Harris was running hard, running well, and getting extra yards when blocks weren't there. Why the heck the only "halftime adjustment" the Packers made was to adjust away from something that was working boggles the mind.

Getting away from problems surrounding running the ball, though, I don't think you can blame time of possession woes on the offense exclusively. At least not in the playoff failures. Because in both last year and this year's losses, the defense showed little ability to get off the field throughout the game. Sure, they were gassed by the end of the game, and McCarthy's play calling on offense and the offense's lack of execution contributed to the gassing. But the main reason they were gassed was they couldn't stop anything and couldn't get themselves off the field. If you let the other team's quarterback rip off 15-20 yard runs again and again, damn straight you're going to get tired. And you have no one to blame for that but yourself.

Each of the Packers' problems are magnified by the others. The running game suffers because the OL is not doing its job. The OL is exposed because Rodgers holds the ball too long AND because whoever calls the plays goes away from the run too easy, uses the shotgun too much, and forgets about the value of slants and other quick passes. Because the OL doesn't do its job, the vertical passing game suffers and Rodgers gets hit far too much. Because the vertical passing game suffers and Rodgers gets sacked so much, the offense spends too little time on the field. Because the offensive spends too little time on the field. Because the offense spends too little time on the field, the defense has even more trouble stopping the other team from scoring. And because the defense has more trouble stopping the other team from scoring, Mike McCarthy and company feel compelled to go away from the run and toward the shotgun and toward the deep passing game more, repeating the cycle of mediocrity all over again.

I'm a big believer that you should always play to your strengths more. But part of that means knowing what your weaknesses are, and not doing the things that give your weaknesses more power over the final outcome. I like McCarthy. But I also think the thing that keeps him from being a great coach -- as opposed to a good/very good one, is that he is sometimes blinded by our strengths (Rodgers and the receiving possibilities) that he puts the weaker parts of the team in positions where they are more likely to fail. He does it with the OL too often, he does it with the run game too often; and because he does it with the run game an the OL too often, he does it with the defense.

And the same is true with Capers. The weaknesses of the Packers defense are (save for Pickett) up the middle and in the linebacking corps, and to a lesser extent, its youth. Yet he too often emphasizes blitzing and coverage schemes that depend on above-average performance up the middle and from the LBs. And that require extra discipline from that youth.

And its even true a bit with Thompson. Where have Thompson's drafts been weakest? The OL. He has one unqualified success (Sitton). He has one semi-success (Bulaga). He has some where it is still too early to tell (Sherrod, Datko). But mostly he's been providing late round draft choices and tier three free agents; and even when he's drafted OL high, he's picked mostly late-round talent (e.g. Colledge, Spitz). Yet he stays with his same approach to talent acquisition (build through the draft and not overpay for others' free agents or our own) for the OL (where it hasn't worked) as well as for the other positions (WR, DB, QB) where it has.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the solution isn't in getting rid of this or that coach. Even if we eliminate Capers' part in "accenting our weaknesses," we still have the problems of McCarthy and Thompson doing the same. The solution for the Packers is much harder, because the Packers as an organization must find a way to recognize these tendencies in themselves and resist them. Capers must recognize more his weakness in trying to finesse too much. And McCarthy must recognize more his weakness in playcalling/gameplanning. Thompson must recognize more his weakness and the scouting department's in identifying OL talent. And recognizing their respective weaknesses more, all of them must take active steps in changing the way they make those particular decisions so that it's harder for them to succumb to them again.

It's tough. They don't want to stop doing what makes them well above average at what they do (e.g., Capers' willingness to try different combinations, McCarthy's passing mind, Thompson's ability to identify collegiate talent and those who identify collegiate talent). But they do need to recognize where those very talents tend to get them in more trouble rather than less.

But that's why they get paid the big bucks. Part of what coordinators and head coaches and general managers are being paid to do that their subordinates are not paid to do, is to minimize the effects of their own shortcomings. Any schmo can point out what their underlings are doing wrong. But the true leaders, the truly successful, are also able to assess themselves and figure out what they are doing wrong.

Greatness lies not in correcting others or in eliminating the weakness of others. Greatness lies in succeeding despite the errors of others AND in working around your own weaknesses.



Porforis  
#12 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:09:40 AM(UTC)
PackerTraxx said: Go to Quoted Post
I think you might have something here. But we sure could use an influx of some talent also. We are questionable at RB at best


I agree with everything else you have to say, but I sincerely believe that you could slap a James Starks behind a top 10 run blocking team and he'd be a top 10 back. Consider that we also have (had?) Cedrick Benson who showed a lot before he got hurt and DuJuan Harris who seems to be a VERY quick one-cut back that doesn't go down easy, I really can't say that we're that questionable at RB.
wpr  
#13 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 8:53:05 AM(UTC)
I think part of the problem with attitude is they think they are good enough to show up and they will win. Part of that is lack of real leadership. Part of it is youth. These kids were all so good in college and HS before that. They have to learn to give everything on every single play no matter who the opponent is.
PackFanWithTwins  
#14 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 10:45:38 AM(UTC)
TheKanataThrilla said: Go to Quoted Post
Why is Capers always upstairs and not on the field? I think it would certainly help if the Defensive Coordinator actually had the ability to get in some of his guys faces and talk to them like men during the game.


He has always said that he likes being in the booth because he can see what is going no better. He probably has less distraction. He also doesn't seem to have the personality to get in someones face like that.

though his position assistants should really be the ones to get in the faces of their players.
nerdmann  
#15 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:01:52 PM(UTC)
DakotaT said: Go to Quoted Post
Your stats tell me that we are weak up the guts. The biggest problem with this team is that we lose the time of possession battle against good teams because our offensive line and running backs are subpar. Improve the running back position and run blocking - and the defense will automatically get better by being fresher. Oh, and improve the linebacking corp as well.

Mike McCarthy doesn't want to drain time off the clock. He wants to score quickly, so that he can score more often.

Unfortunately this leaves us at a disadvantage when there are offensive players like Kaepernick you want to keep off the field.
wpr  
#16 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 12:42:37 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
MM doesn't want to drain time off the clock. He wants to score quickly, so that he can score more often.

Unfortunately this leaves us at a disadvantage when there are offensive players like Kaepernick you want to keep off the field.


I think if you polled 100 HCs from the NFL and NCAA and asked them if they preferred to score in 2-3 plays but only used up a min off the clock or have the ball for 10 minutes where you may or may not score and the score could be only a FG, 100% of the coaches would chose to score quickly.

But that is just my guess. [grin1]
PackerTraxx  
#17 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:51:46 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I think if you polled 100 HCs from the NFL and NCAA and asked them if they preferred to score in 2-3 plays but only used up a min off the clock or have the ball for 10 minutes where you may or may not score and the score could be only a FG, 100% of the coaches would chose to score quickly.

But that is just my guess. [grin1]


I don't see that as a fair comparison, anybody would take a TD over a field goal, unless they can't count! The question should be "would you sooner take 2-3 plays or 10 minutes to score the same amount of points on a drive". Unless you're behind with a limited amount of time I believe 100% would opt for 10 minutes.
wpr  
#18 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:55:35 PM(UTC)
PackerTraxx said: Go to Quoted Post
I don't see that as a fair comparison, anybody would take a TD over a field goal, unless they can't count! The question should be "would you sooner take 2-3 plays or 10 minutes to score the same amount of points on a drive". Unless you're behind with a limited amount of time I believe 100% would opt for 10 minutes.


It is fair because there is no guarantee you can score even if you have the ball for 10 minutes. Over the years we have seen many times were GB (and other teams) had the ball for 7-8 minutes and got shut out.

So the point is to take the points no matter how quick you get them. hanging on to the ball is no magic solution at all.
Zero2Cool  
#19 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 2:57:58 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I think if you polled 100 HCs from the NFL and NCAA and asked them if they preferred to score in 2-3 plays but only used up a min off the clock or have the ball for 10 minutes where you may or may not score and the score could be only a FG, 100% of the coaches would chose to score quickly.

But that is just my guess. [grin1]


If my team is up by 8 points and there is 12 minutes or less to go, I'll take the 10 minute drive that may or may not yield a field goal attempt. Especially if it's the Packers defense.
PackerTraxx  
#20 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:11:42 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
It is fair because there is no guarantee you can score even if you have the ball for 10 minutes. Over the years we have seen many times were GB (and other teams) had the ball for 7-8 minutes and got shut out.

So the point is to take the points no matter how quick you get them. hanging on to the ball is no magic solution at all.


I've also seen GB go 3 and out... I'll take the points not matter how long it takes.
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