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Offline Rockmolder  
#11 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 10:29:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
The Steelers? They haven't won the SB since 2005, and have not been a good team since losing to GB in 2010.


I'm pretty sure the Steelers beat the Cardinals after the 2008 season in SB XLIII.

Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
It really depends on your definition of "elite". In my mind, that says top 3. Nobody's been top 3 most of the last 5 years except MAYBE the Patriots. That's just the nature of the league, and parity is part of what makes the NFL great.

Would you rather have the Packers make the postseason 10 of the next 10 years, winning an average of 2 games per postseason, or get to the postseason 6 times in the next 10 years and win it all twice? I'm not saying that I don't appreciate what we have or that we're perennially a top 5 team or very close to it, but in the end what matters are super bowls. If we don't win anything in the next 5 years or so and always hover around the top 5 in the league, are we really elite or just very good?


We've recently won a Super Bowl and we're constantly in contention. That would make us elite in my eyes.

It depends on how you label elite, I guess, but behind the Patriots there aren't a whole lot of teams that come close to what we've been doing the last few years.

And looking at it more recently, like earthquake said, the Pats haven't done a whole lot in the SB winning department as of late, either.

I'd say we're elite. I'd say the Pats are elite. If we're just good, though, what would that make the rest of the league?
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Online earthquake  
#12 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 10:33:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
It really depends on your definition of "elite". In my mind, that says top 3. Nobody's been top 3 most of the last 5 years except MAYBE the Patriots. That's just the nature of the league, and parity is part of what makes the NFL great.


To me, elite is relative to the other teams in the league, not some theoretical standards that nobody meets.

Quote:

Would you rather have the Packers make the postseason 10 of the next 10 years, winning an average of 2 games per postseason, or get to the postseason 6 times in the next 10 years and win it all twice? I'm not saying that I don't appreciate what we have or that we're perennially a top 5 team or very close to it, but in the end what matters are super bowls. If we don't win anything in the next 5 years or so and always hover around the top 5 in the league, are we really elite or just very good?


Oh absolutely, I would rather GB make the playoffs 3 times and win the SB each time than make it 10 times in the next 10 years with no SB wins. No question. I would take the Giant's 2 SB wins in the last 5 years over GB's extra playoff appearances as well. My point is that every team that you would reasonably consider elite has its warts, just like GB.


Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
I'm pretty sure the Steelers beat the Cardinals after the 2008 season in SB XLIII.


Thanks for catching that, dumb mistake on my part.
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Offline Porforis  
#13 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 10:52:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
To me, elite is relative to the other teams in the league, not some theoretical standards that nobody meets


You set the timeframe, the fact that no single team's going to be consistently elite over a 10 year period doesn't mean that my definition of "elite" is invalid (not to say that you were saying it was). You defined elite by using elite in the definition, which doesn't really explain things well. So would you say top 5? Top 7? Some other metric? Top 3 was just my opinion, just curious about yours. My GUESS is that most people would define it as top 5, admittedly my own standard is pretty stringent.

Quote:
Oh absolutely, I would rather GB make the playoffs 3 times and win the SB each time than make it 10 times in the next 10 years with no SB wins. No question. I would take the Giant's 2 SB wins in the last 5 years over GB's extra playoff appearances as well. My point is that every team that you would reasonably consider elite has its warts, just like GB.


There we agree, and I also agree that it's easy to find things to bitch about this time of year. We're spoiled rotten at QB, top 5 in receiving targets, and pretty good at CB with an elite LB and arguably punter. All things considered we're very lucky.

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Offline gbguy20  
#14 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 11:39:47 AM(UTC)
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What we need is for aaron rodgers to tell mccarthy to stop calling plays and just let him be peyton manning. then we need to beat the quick throws into aaron's head.
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Offline Porforis  
#15 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 11:53:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gbguy20 Go to Quoted Post
What we need is for aaron rodgers to tell mccarthy to stop calling plays and just let him be peyton manning. then we need to beat the quick throws into aaron's head.


If it weren't for McCarthy's excellent challenge record I'd make a joke about letting Jordy Nelson throw the flags for him.
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Offline play2win  
#16 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 12:05:16 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
The Packers are not an elite team and I don't think they will be under this regime. I think the coaching staff is too stubborn to make the necessary adjustments to win consistently in the playoffs. They lack a killer instinct to put teams away. And they let inferior teams hang around and in some cases let them win.

The Packers are a top 10 team in the NFL, but they are not elite. Elite teams don't get embarrassed at home in the playoffs and surely elite teams do not let a QB run for 170+ of his 181 before even once laying a hand on him. To his credit, Dom Capers did try to contain, he did try a spy (three actually at different times) and he just couldn't stop him.

I went into the last few seasons with hopes of a Super Bowl contention ... now ... I'm thankful for the wins, the division championships but have realized Aaron Rodgers no longer respects his coach and the team is drifting away.

There needs to be changes and the changes needed are against the grain the Packers have exhibited over Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy's careers with the Packers.

Sit back, enjoy the division championships while they last.


I appreciate your sentiment Zero2Cool. I feel much the same.

I would put them in the top tier of the NFL. Are they "elite" now? No. They've shown themselves to not be competitive with the very best in the league. But, they are close. To me, the Packers lost their "elite" card last year in losing at home to the Giants. It should have never happened.

As a "team," responsibility for our demise and success rests on management first, then trickles down. We've got a decent team, but not a great one that rolls over the competition. SF has that now. No one else seems to have that at this moment. Ravens? We'll have to see, but if they win it all over SF, I will be surprised. I do not consider them the top team in the NFL, but they are close, behind only SF and maybe SEA.

Are the NYG elite? I would consider them to be so, but they didn't even make the playoffs. They've probably suffered the same personnel, coaching, and player gaffes that we did along the way this year. Last year was great until we let up in KC. Why did we do that?

This really points to "killer instinct" and the lack thereof in GB. We don't have it in the front office, clearly, as Ted Thompson is forever leaving his team thin at positions of need, counting on rookie players to perform like Pro Bowl talents. We don't have it in the coaching department, because we are too often unprepared, and too often fail to adjust to an opponent's strengths. We don't have it on the player side with enough consistency. How does one of our top talents, Tramon Williams, not perform better when all the chips are on the table? I was really disappointed in his overall play this season and expected more from him. He is also one of our top paid players. IMO, this is an example of a player not performing with a killer instinct. He played way too soft. Finley must get a mention here as well. You can't just show up in a few games. He had so many missed blocks, whiffs. Took him half a season just to get on the same page with his QB. Greg Jennings seemed to be pouting through most of his last year in a GB uniform. What the hell? Is THAT what he gets paid for? We know better. Raji? I kind of expected him to do more too.

Blame can be assigned all the way down the line. And it is the WHOLE line of personnel that is responsible for our current mess. Thompson needs to get a set and start making some bold moves to better the personnel on his team. There is more to building a team than the draft.

McCarthy has to get a set and start coaching to win, especially the big games. Playing down to the level of lesser teams is inexcusable. Laying down to superior teams even moreso. How are his players often taking the field looking unprepared? 181 yds rushing by a QB? Not to mention another 100 by their RB? Unacceptable. Dom Capers can try to spy Kaepernick with my grandma, but that isn't going to work either. Seems Ted left our D way too thin, in spite of 6 draftees on that side of the ball.

Our players need to get a set and put themselves in a position where they are competitive, game in and game out, with the best teams in the league. Play their best. No mailing it in. Not for a single play.

I would add only one thing, and that is how do we recapture a home field advantage in Green Bay? Something has been lost. Is the venue itself too friendly to opposing teams? Seems so. It has gone so far the other way, that it is almost a disadvantage. Something has to change there as well, if we want to be contenders, elite.
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Wade on 1/21/2013(UTC), yooperfan on 1/21/2013(UTC)
Offline doddpower  
#17 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 12:47:41 PM(UTC)
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The Packers are an "elite" team by most peoples standards, and even if they aren't as of this moment, they are very, very close. The Patriots are almost unanimously considered elite, but they just got beat down by the Ravens. Does that mean they are no longer elite? No, not really, they just had a bad day against a hot team that player very well. It happens. Are the Falcons elite? If not they are on the brink too, and the Packers are every bit as talented personnel wise as they are (although they do have much better coaching). The 49'ers are elite, but they have personnel like no other team in the NFL has. They had several mediocre or losing seasons which afforded them higher draft picks to stock talent and they did a good job of doing so. Even with more talent than most teams, it took the right set of coaches to utilize it the past two seasons. Make no mistake, the 49'er's quantity of talent is rare, especially mixed with such great coaching. Now that their team is winning, they will have late draft picks and their players and staff will start being picked apart for other jobs just like every other great team, and it will be a great challenge for them to maintain their success (I'm not saying they won't, but it's going to be incredibly difficult to maintain that type of talent). They have also been very fortunate the past two seasons in staying remarkably healthy. How that is the case, I really don't know. It's obviously a lot to do with luck, but it seems there would have to be at least a little something more to it. Either way, health plays a big factor in their success and they have been very healthy over the past two seasons relative to the Packers (and most other teams). This season alone, the Packers were without their last three first round draft picks for a good part of the season and playoffs, not to mention many key injuries elsewhere. It happens, and for the most part, I think the team responded well to most the injuries. Imagine the 49'er's without two of their elite offensive linemen (Mike Iupati and Anthony Davis) and Aldon Smith (or any other combination of recent 1st round picks). It would likely substantially affect them. The Ravens are loaded with some of the best talent in the league and have great coaching. They are also riding the emotional wave of a one-of-a-kind player in Ray Lewis. His influence cannot be overstated. Ray Rice said after the game "This is all for Ray [Lewis]. We're doing this all for him." I understand that's likely an overstatement, but still, a rare player like that can make a whole team play better. He won't be around after this season, and Ed Reed is nearing the end of his career. At that point, I think the Packers can compete with them so long as the Packers coaches were disciplined.

The Packers just need to get healthy, add a few pieces, and their Super Bowl chances will be almost as good as any other team. One thing that I think needs some serious improvement is offensive balance. The defense will be OK if they can stay somewhat healthy, players continue to develop, and a few more pieces are added this off season. However, the offense has to consistently find more balance and a lot of the blame for that can be placed on Mike McCarthy. Aaron Rodgers needs more help. He is likely the best QB in the league, but he still can't do it all himself. They were able to maintain some nice balance at times, but they too quickly got away from it. McCarthy has to have more discipline than that, just like the 49'er's did in the 2013 NFC Championship game.

A great off season (draft and free agency), player development, and better coaching will put the Packers right back in contention for a Super Bowl. All of those things are achievable, and I expect that to happen. Are they unquestionable favorites? No, but they don't have to be to be Champions.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#18 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 12:57:24 PM(UTC)
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I would have to say they are an Elite team. The base of this team, is the ability to win the division and make the playoffs each year. That is really what you hope for in a team. When you have that, it only takes a couple things to fall right for the elite to become SB Champs. The 2010 SB team, wasn't any more talented, or better than the last two years. They just had some things fall into place where the others didn't.

Barring injuries, the team is legitimately 2 players away from being dominant. One Olineman, and one on the defensive front that can force pressure. We were the 5th youngest team, and our youth has experience most teams don't.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline rabidgopher04  
#19 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 1:42:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Barring injuries, the team is legitimately 2 players away from being dominant. One Olineman, and one on the defensive front that can force pressure. We were the 5th youngest team, and our youth has experience most teams don't.


I would like to see Ted do something other than nothing to address the D-line. I would like to see him go after a free agent. There's a few good ones out there that could make even a slight difference for this team.

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Offline play2win  
#20 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 1:43:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I would have to say they are an Elite team. The base of this team, is the ability to win the division and make the playoffs each year. That is really what you hope for in a team. When you have that, it only takes a couple things to fall right for the elite to become SB Champs. The 2010 SB team, wasn't any more talented, or better than the last two years. They just had some things fall into place where the others didn't.

Barring injuries, the team is legitimately 2 players away from being dominant. One O lineman, and one on the defensive front that can force pressure. We were the 5th youngest team, and our youth has experience most teams don't.


Oh no. I disagree on the talent end (not to be argumentative at all, but I think this is a common misconception). The 2010 team was FAR more talented. Cullen Jenkins, Nick Collins, Des Bishop, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton, Darren College. Woodson in his prime. Howard Green.

Games are won and lost in the trenches. We've been losing some really big games in the trenches since that SB win. Our DL was Raji, Pickett and Jenkins... with Howard Green as a backup? We had Wilson then too! That's big. We've replaced Jenkins and Green with what exactly? Our OL was also big, and experienced. They weren't the best, but they were big and experienced, and had played together a long time. Who have we replaced those veteran starters with?

We've had nothing close on either line since.

Seems we've lost quite a bit of talent, especially when you throw Nick Collins in there, along with the decline of Woodson through age and injury, and the loss of Bish to injury.

if Ted Thompson wants to continue his draft and develop strategy, I guess we have to ask, will Rodgers get an opportunity to win another SB? It is a team game, and you have to have the talent across the board. I appreciate how good the overall depth of his team is, but it is severely lacking in blue chip starters on both lines. To me, we have 2. Sitton, and Pickett. Raji has regressed himself out of that category. ZERO sacks? Really? Not one?
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