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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#21 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:11:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: rabidgopher04 Go to Quoted Post
I would like to see Ted do something other than nothing to address the D-line. I would like to see him go after a free agent. There's a few good ones out there that could make even a slight difference for this team.


I wouldn't say he had done far from nothing. He has drafted to build the Dline, Neal,Wilson,Worthy,Daniels. I'm never against getting a FA, as long as the value is right. It is to easy to end up hurting the team by signing the wrong FA at to high a price.


Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Oh no. I disagree on the talent end (not to be argumentative at all, but I think this is a common misconception). The 2010 team was FAR more talented. Cullen Jenkins, Nick Collins, Des Bishop, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton, Darren College. Woodson in his prime. Howard Green.

Games are won and lost in the trenches. We've been losing some really big games in the trenches since that SB win. Our DL was Raji, Pickett and Jenkins... with Howard Green as a backup? We had Wilson then too! That's big. We've replaced Jenkins and Green with what exactly? Our OL was also big, and experienced. They weren't the best, but they were big and experienced, and had played together a long time. Who have we replaced those veteran starters with?

We've had nothing close on either line since.

Seems we've lost quite a bit of talent, especially when you throw Nick Collins in there, along with the decline of Woodson through age and injury, and the loss of Bish to injury.

if Ted Thompson wants to continue his draft and develop strategy, I guess we have to ask, will Rodgers get an opportunity to win another SB? It is a team game, and you have to have the talent across the board. I appreciate how good the overall depth of his team is, but it is severely lacking in blue chip starters on both lines. To me, we have 2. Sitton, and Pickett. Raji has regressed himself out of that category. ZERO sacks? Really? Not one?



If you remember back to 2010, Jenkins missed the final 4 games and was very limited through the playoffs and while out, the front 7 didn't drop in production, Raji was a rookie and didn't come on until late in the season. Yeah, Nick was a loss, but the combination of Woodson and Burnett, is as good as Collins and Peprah. Shields coming on, and now with Hayward able to fill in the slot as well. Bishop wasn't even a starter until injury, and sorry, but he is not a great player. I'd take Brad Jones over Bishop at ILB. Clifton was a shell of what he once was hell Woodson today is more of his old self than Cliffy was in 2010. Bulaga was a rookie

The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline Rios39  
#22 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:22:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Oh no. I disagree on the talent end (not to be argumentative at all, but I think this is a common misconception). The 2010 team was FAR more talented. Cullen Jenkins, Nick Collins, Des Bishop, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton, Darren College. Woodson in his prime. Howard Green.

Games are won and lost in the trenches. We've been losing some really big games in the trenches since that SB win. Our DL was Raji, Pickett and Jenkins... with Howard Green as a backup? We had Wilson then too! That's big. We've replaced Jenkins and Green with what exactly? Our OL was also big, and experienced. They weren't the best, but they were big and experienced, and had played together a long time. Who have we replaced those veteran starters with?

We've had nothing close on either line since.

Seems we've lost quite a bit of talent, especially when you throw Nick Collins in there, along with the decline of Woodson through age and injury, and the loss of Bish to injury.

if Ted Thompson wants to continue his draft and develop strategy, I guess we have to ask, will Rodgers get an opportunity to win another SB? It is a team game, and you have to have the talent across the board. I appreciate how good the overall depth of his team is, but it is severely lacking in blue chip starters on both lines. To me, we have 2. Sitton, and Pickett. Raji has regressed himself out of that category. ZERO sacks? Really? Not one?



A lot of nose tackles don't record any sacks in a season it's not really their job. He's still game planned for so he's still a legit player. 2 Players in the front 7 the opponents plan to stop, Matthews and Raji, they'll let the rest beat them. That needs to be addressed this year. You may say Bishop is impact enough at the MLB to enter a teams game plan.
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Offline play2win  
#23 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:33:59 PM(UTC)
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I said Raji regressed. I know his primary job as a NT is to occupy blockers. But he went from 1 sack in 2009 to 6.5 sacks in 2010 to 3 sacks in 2011 to ZERO in 2012.

Des Bishop is awesome at MLB. Had 103 combined tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FFs and an INT in 2010 - add another 26 tackles, a sack, a FF and 2 FRs in the playoffs that year. Had 115 combined tackles last year with 5 sacks and 2 FFs.
Offline yooperfan  
#24 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:35:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: rabidgopher04 Go to Quoted Post
I would like to see Ted do something other than nothing to address the D-line. I would like to see him go after a free agent. There's a few good ones out there that could make even a slight difference for this team.



Most of us know that ain't gonna happen unless it's another Howard Green type that comes cheap.

Offline play2win  
#25 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:44:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
Most of us know that ain't gonna happen unless it's another Howard Green type that comes cheap.



That's part of the problem. We've got so much dough tied into players who just aren't playing up to their contracts. Woodson. Hawk. Finley. Tramon Williams ( I like Tramon, but I don't think he played all out this past season). Add to that a GM who doesn't believe in adding good, solid, veteran talent via FA or trade...

The whole mindset up there has got to change. Where is our toughness?
Offline yooperfan  
#26 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:53:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I appreciate your sentiment Zero2Cool. I feel much the same.

I would put them in the top tier of the NFL. Are they "elite" now? No. They've shown themselves to not be competitive with the very best in the league. But, they are close. To me, the Packers lost their "elite" card last year in losing at home to the Giants. It should have never happened.

As a "team," responsibility for our demise and success rests on management first, then trickles down. We've got a decent team, but not a great one that rolls over the competition. SF has that now. No one else seems to have that at this moment. Ravens? We'll have to see, but if they win it all over SF, I will be surprised. I do not consider them the top team in the NFL, but they are close, behind only SF and maybe SEA.

Are the NYG elite? I would consider them to be so, but they didn't even make the playoffs. They've probably suffered the same personnel, coaching, and player gaffes that we did along the way this year. Last year was great until we let up in KC. Why did we do that?

This really points to "killer instinct" and the lack thereof in GB. We don't have it in the front office, clearly, as Ted Thompson is forever leaving his team thin at positions of need, counting on rookie players to perform like Pro Bowl talents. We don't have it in the coaching department, because we are too often unprepared, and too often fail to adjust to an opponent's strengths. We don't have it on the player side with enough consistency. How does one of our top talents, Tramon Williams, not perform better when all the chips are on the table? I was really disappointed in his overall play this season and expected more from him. He is also one of our top paid players. IMO, this is an example of a player not performing with a killer instinct. He played way too soft. Finley must get a mention here as well. You can't just show up in a few games. He had so many missed blocks, whiffs. Took him half a season just to get on the same page with his QB. Greg Jennings seemed to be pouting through most of his last year in a GB uniform. What the hell? Is THAT what he gets paid for? We know better. Raji? I kind of expected him to do more too.

Blame can be assigned all the way down the line. And it is the WHOLE line of personnel that is responsible for our current mess. Thompson needs to get a set and start making some bold moves to better the personnel on his team. There is more to building a team than the draft.

McCarthy has to get a set and start coaching to win, especially the big games. Playing down to the level of lesser teams is inexcusable. Laying down to superior teams even moreso. How are his players often taking the field looking unprepared? 181 yds rushing by a QB? Not to mention another 100 by their RB? Unacceptable. Dom Capers can try to spy Kaepernick with my grandma, but that isn't going to work either. Seems Ted left our D way too thin, in spite of 6 draftees on that side of the ball.

Our players need to get a set and put themselves in a position where they are competitive, game in and game out, with the best teams in the league. Play their best. No mailing it in. Not for a single play.

I would add only one thing, and that is how do we recapture a home field advantage in Green Bay? Something has been lost. Is the venue itself too friendly to opposing teams? Seems so. It has gone so far the other way, that it is almost a disadvantage. Something has to change there as well, if we want to be contenders, elite.


play2win, this is the best description of the state the Green Bay Packers that I have read to date.
Nice job!

Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#27 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:55:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
That's part of the problem. We've got so much dough tied into players who just aren't playing up to their contracts. Woodson. Hawk. Finley. Tramon Williams ( I like Tramon, but I don't think he played all out this past season). Add to that a GM who doesn't believe in adding good, solid, veteran talent via FA or trade...

The whole mindset up there has got to change. Where is our toughness?


Who should we have signed?

play2win wrote:
Des Bishop is awesome at MLB. Had 103 combined tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FFs and an INT in 2010 - add another 26 tackles, a sack, a FF and 2 FRs in the playoffs that year. Had 115 combined tackles last year with 5 sacks and 2 FFs.


FYI. Jones and Smith this year combined, matched Bishop.

Message modified by user Monday, January 21, 2013 3:19:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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Offline play2win  
#28 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:20:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Who should we have signed?


I think as a GM, I would have traded Jennings for something in return last year.

As for who we should have signed in FA to shore up our DL, it would be revisionist history for me to choose from a listing of players that hit last year's market. So, here's the list:

(Aside from Mario Williams)

Jason Jones (TEN) - DT - When healthy, Jason Jones is one of the league's better interior pass rushers. He has an explosive first step in getting upfield and disrupting a quarterback's ability to step up into a clean pocket. However, last year the Titans moved him out to defensive end, where he struggled to match his productivity from years past. If that's where they expect to play Jones, his value will certainly be greater outside of Tennessee.

Antonio Garay (SD) - NT - Just as quickly as they lost Jamal Williams, the Chargers thought they had replaced him at nose tackle with another Pro Bowl caliber player. However, after a stellar 2010 season, Garay took a slight step backward in 2011. If the Chargers need to enter a bidding war for his services, it's reported they'll bow out rather quickly.

John Abraham (ATL) - DE - The Falcons went out this past offseason to acquire Ray Edwards to improve the pass rush. Though Abraham is aging, he's still easily the Falcons top pass rusher. His production, even on a snap count, can't be easily replaced, but the team still won't pay him the $8 million a year they did in 2011.

Sione Pouha (NYJ) - NT - The Jets aren't in a position with great depth in their front 7 where they can afford to allow productive starters to leave. Securing Pouha should be one of the organization's first objectives before they decide how to improve their roster through external acquisitions.

The rest:
Vonnie Holliday (ARZ) - DE
Kroy Biermann (ATL) - DE
Cory Redding (BAL) - DE
Israel Idonije (CHI) - DE
Victor Adeyanju (CIN) - DE
Frostee Rucker (CIN) - DE
Derrick Harvey (DEN) - DE
Jason Hunter (DEN) - DE
Tim Bulman (HOU) - DE
Jamaal Anderson (IND) - DE
Tyler Brayton (IND) - DE
Jeremy Mincey (JAC) - DE
Matt Roth (JAC) - DE
Wallace Gilberry (KC) - DE
Kendall Langford (MIA) - DE
Phillip Merling (MIA) - DE
Igor Olshansky (MIA) - DE
Mark Anderson (NE) - DE
Andre Carter (NE) - DE
Shaun Ellis (NE) - DE
Eric Moore (NE) - DE
Jeff Charleston (NO) - DE
Turk McBride (NO) - DE
Dave Tollefson (NYG) - DE
Jarvis Moss (OAK) - DE
Trevor Scott (OAK) - DE
Victor Abiamiri (PHI) - DE
Juqua Parker (PHI) - DE
Aaron Smith (PIT) - DE
Raheem Brock (SEA) - DE
Anthony Hargrove (SEA) - DE
Jovan Haye (TB) - DE
Dave Ball (TEN) - DE
William Hayes (TEN) - DE
Adam Carriker (WAS) - DE
Kedric Golston (WAS) - DE
Marcus Benard (CLE) - DE - Restricted
Clifton Geathers (DAL) - DE - Exclusive Rights
Will Tukuafu (SF) - DE - Exclusive Rights
C.J. Ah You (STL) - DE - Restricted
Michael Bennett (TB) - DE - Restricted
Brandon McKinney (BAL) - DT
Ronald Fields (CAR) - DT
Anthony Adams (CHI) - DT
Amobi Okoye (CHI) - DT
Jonathan Fanene (CIN) - DT
Pat Sims (CIN) - DT
Brodrick Bunkley (DEN) - DT
Marcus Thomas (DEN) - DT
Andre Fluellen (DET) - DT
Howard Green (GB) - DT
Eric Foster (IND) - DT
Tommie Harris (IND) - DT
Daniel Muir (IND) - DT
C.J. Mosley (JAC) - DT
Amon Gordon (KC) - DT
Kelly Gregg (KC) - NT
Paul Soliai (MIA) - NT
Fred Evans (MIN) - DT
Letroy Guion (MIN) - DT
Gerard Warren (NE) - DT
Mike Wright (NE) - DT
Aubrayo Franklin (NO) - NT
Rocky Bernard (NYG) - DT
Jimmy Kennedy (NYG) - DT
Shaun Rogers (NO) - DT
Derek Landri (PHI) - DT
Trevor Laws (PHI) - DT
Red Bryant (SEA) - DT
Colin Cole (SEA) - DT
Gary Gibson (STL) - DT
Albert Haynesworth (TB) - DT
Tony Brown (TEN) - DT
Vance Walker (ATL) - DT - Restricted
Ryan McBean (DEN) - DT - Restricted
Sammie Lee Hill (DET) - DT - Restricted
Nate Collins (JAC) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Leger Douzable (JAC) - DT - Restricted
Kyle Love (NE) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Antonio Dixon (PHI) - DT - Restricted
Steve McLendon (PIT) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Clinton McDonald (SEA) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Jermelle Cudjo (STL) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Malcolm Sheppard (TEN) - DT - Exclusive Rights

I'm sure we could have added a veteran presence to our DL to help carry some of the load, much like Howard Green was in 2010. Who knows? Maybe even a real difference maker...

As for OL, anyone look at McKinney sauntering up to the BAL line and think, "why didn't we even try to sign him after he was cut from MIN in 2011, knowing fully Cliffy was done, and we needed a LT?" I mean, that is a quality road grader there... 6-8, 340...
Offline play2win  
#29 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:32:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Who should we have signed?



FYI. Jones and Smith this year combined, matched Bishop.


I saw the games too, and I don't think either played like Desmond Bishop. Bish seems to have a much better nose for the football than either of those guys. That's just my opinion in comparing those players. I can't imagine taking Brad Jones over Bishop. I respect that his play improved this year with the switch inside, but it didn't improve our ILB play over years prior. And I like DJ Smith, but his size seems a bit limiting in the NFL.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#30 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:36:04 PM(UTC)
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At what cost? It isn't difficult to cut and paste a list without actually thinking it out.

Jason Jones, 276lb DE. Would you really want him on the packers when having to pay over 4.5 million
Antonio Garay, 320 NT. How many NT does this team need? And at over 4 million a year, and missed 1/2 the season
Abraham might have worked, but he is a 4-3 DE and would have been out of position at OLB or way undersized at DE. And cost 5+/year.
The world needs ditch diggers to Danny!!!
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