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Offline yooperfan  
#26 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:53:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I appreciate your sentiment Zero2Cool. I feel much the same.

I would put them in the top tier of the NFL. Are they "elite" now? No. They've shown themselves to not be competitive with the very best in the league. But, they are close. To me, the Packers lost their "elite" card last year in losing at home to the Giants. It should have never happened.

As a "team," responsibility for our demise and success rests on management first, then trickles down. We've got a decent team, but not a great one that rolls over the competition. SF has that now. No one else seems to have that at this moment. Ravens? We'll have to see, but if they win it all over SF, I will be surprised. I do not consider them the top team in the NFL, but they are close, behind only SF and maybe SEA.

Are the NYG elite? I would consider them to be so, but they didn't even make the playoffs. They've probably suffered the same personnel, coaching, and player gaffes that we did along the way this year. Last year was great until we let up in KC. Why did we do that?

This really points to "killer instinct" and the lack thereof in GB. We don't have it in the front office, clearly, as Ted Thompson is forever leaving his team thin at positions of need, counting on rookie players to perform like Pro Bowl talents. We don't have it in the coaching department, because we are too often unprepared, and too often fail to adjust to an opponent's strengths. We don't have it on the player side with enough consistency. How does one of our top talents, Tramon Williams, not perform better when all the chips are on the table? I was really disappointed in his overall play this season and expected more from him. He is also one of our top paid players. IMO, this is an example of a player not performing with a killer instinct. He played way too soft. Finley must get a mention here as well. You can't just show up in a few games. He had so many missed blocks, whiffs. Took him half a season just to get on the same page with his QB. Greg Jennings seemed to be pouting through most of his last year in a GB uniform. What the hell? Is THAT what he gets paid for? We know better. Raji? I kind of expected him to do more too.

Blame can be assigned all the way down the line. And it is the WHOLE line of personnel that is responsible for our current mess. Thompson needs to get a set and start making some bold moves to better the personnel on his team. There is more to building a team than the draft.

McCarthy has to get a set and start coaching to win, especially the big games. Playing down to the level of lesser teams is inexcusable. Laying down to superior teams even moreso. How are his players often taking the field looking unprepared? 181 yds rushing by a QB? Not to mention another 100 by their RB? Unacceptable. Dom Capers can try to spy Kaepernick with my grandma, but that isn't going to work either. Seems Ted left our D way too thin, in spite of 6 draftees on that side of the ball.

Our players need to get a set and put themselves in a position where they are competitive, game in and game out, with the best teams in the league. Play their best. No mailing it in. Not for a single play.

I would add only one thing, and that is how do we recapture a home field advantage in Green Bay? Something has been lost. Is the venue itself too friendly to opposing teams? Seems so. It has gone so far the other way, that it is almost a disadvantage. Something has to change there as well, if we want to be contenders, elite.


play2win, this is the best description of the state the Green Bay Packers that I have read to date.
Nice job!

Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#27 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 2:55:25 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
That's part of the problem. We've got so much dough tied into players who just aren't playing up to their contracts. Woodson. Hawk. Finley. Tramon Williams ( I like Tramon, but I don't think he played all out this past season). Add to that a GM who doesn't believe in adding good, solid, veteran talent via FA or trade...

The whole mindset up there has got to change. Where is our toughness?


Who should we have signed?

play2win wrote:
Des Bishop is awesome at MLB. Had 103 combined tackles, 3 sacks, 2 FFs and an INT in 2010 - add another 26 tackles, a sack, a FF and 2 FRs in the playoffs that year. Had 115 combined tackles last year with 5 sacks and 2 FFs.


FYI. Jones and Smith this year combined, matched Bishop.

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Offline play2win  
#28 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:20:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Who should we have signed?


I think as a GM, I would have traded Jennings for something in return last year.

As for who we should have signed in FA to shore up our DL, it would be revisionist history for me to choose from a listing of players that hit last year's market. So, here's the list:

(Aside from Mario Williams)

Jason Jones (TEN) - DT - When healthy, Jason Jones is one of the league's better interior pass rushers. He has an explosive first step in getting upfield and disrupting a quarterback's ability to step up into a clean pocket. However, last year the Titans moved him out to defensive end, where he struggled to match his productivity from years past. If that's where they expect to play Jones, his value will certainly be greater outside of Tennessee.

Antonio Garay (SD) - NT - Just as quickly as they lost Jamal Williams, the Chargers thought they had replaced him at nose tackle with another Pro Bowl caliber player. However, after a stellar 2010 season, Garay took a slight step backward in 2011. If the Chargers need to enter a bidding war for his services, it's reported they'll bow out rather quickly.

John Abraham (ATL) - DE - The Falcons went out this past offseason to acquire Ray Edwards to improve the pass rush. Though Abraham is aging, he's still easily the Falcons top pass rusher. His production, even on a snap count, can't be easily replaced, but the team still won't pay him the $8 million a year they did in 2011.

Sione Pouha (NYJ) - NT - The Jets aren't in a position with great depth in their front 7 where they can afford to allow productive starters to leave. Securing Pouha should be one of the organization's first objectives before they decide how to improve their roster through external acquisitions.

The rest:
Vonnie Holliday (ARZ) - DE
Kroy Biermann (ATL) - DE
Cory Redding (BAL) - DE
Israel Idonije (CHI) - DE
Victor Adeyanju (CIN) - DE
Frostee Rucker (CIN) - DE
Derrick Harvey (DEN) - DE
Jason Hunter (DEN) - DE
Tim Bulman (HOU) - DE
Jamaal Anderson (IND) - DE
Tyler Brayton (IND) - DE
Jeremy Mincey (JAC) - DE
Matt Roth (JAC) - DE
Wallace Gilberry (KC) - DE
Kendall Langford (MIA) - DE
Phillip Merling (MIA) - DE
Igor Olshansky (MIA) - DE
Mark Anderson (NE) - DE
Andre Carter (NE) - DE
Shaun Ellis (NE) - DE
Eric Moore (NE) - DE
Jeff Charleston (NO) - DE
Turk McBride (NO) - DE
Dave Tollefson (NYG) - DE
Jarvis Moss (OAK) - DE
Trevor Scott (OAK) - DE
Victor Abiamiri (PHI) - DE
Juqua Parker (PHI) - DE
Aaron Smith (PIT) - DE
Raheem Brock (SEA) - DE
Anthony Hargrove (SEA) - DE
Jovan Haye (TB) - DE
Dave Ball (TEN) - DE
William Hayes (TEN) - DE
Adam Carriker (WAS) - DE
Kedric Golston (WAS) - DE
Marcus Benard (CLE) - DE - Restricted
Clifton Geathers (DAL) - DE - Exclusive Rights
Will Tukuafu (SF) - DE - Exclusive Rights
C.J. Ah You (STL) - DE - Restricted
Michael Bennett (TB) - DE - Restricted
Brandon McKinney (BAL) - DT
Ronald Fields (CAR) - DT
Anthony Adams (CHI) - DT
Amobi Okoye (CHI) - DT
Jonathan Fanene (CIN) - DT
Pat Sims (CIN) - DT
Brodrick Bunkley (DEN) - DT
Marcus Thomas (DEN) - DT
Andre Fluellen (DET) - DT
Howard Green (GB) - DT
Eric Foster (IND) - DT
Tommie Harris (IND) - DT
Daniel Muir (IND) - DT
C.J. Mosley (JAC) - DT
Amon Gordon (KC) - DT
Kelly Gregg (KC) - NT
Paul Soliai (MIA) - NT
Fred Evans (MIN) - DT
Letroy Guion (MIN) - DT
Gerard Warren (NE) - DT
Mike Wright (NE) - DT
Aubrayo Franklin (NO) - NT
Rocky Bernard (NYG) - DT
Jimmy Kennedy (NYG) - DT
Shaun Rogers (NO) - DT
Derek Landri (PHI) - DT
Trevor Laws (PHI) - DT
Red Bryant (SEA) - DT
Colin Cole (SEA) - DT
Gary Gibson (STL) - DT
Albert Haynesworth (TB) - DT
Tony Brown (TEN) - DT
Vance Walker (ATL) - DT - Restricted
Ryan McBean (DEN) - DT - Restricted
Sammie Lee Hill (DET) - DT - Restricted
Nate Collins (JAC) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Leger Douzable (JAC) - DT - Restricted
Kyle Love (NE) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Antonio Dixon (PHI) - DT - Restricted
Steve McLendon (PIT) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Clinton McDonald (SEA) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Jermelle Cudjo (STL) - DT - Exclusive Rights
Malcolm Sheppard (TEN) - DT - Exclusive Rights

I'm sure we could have added a veteran presence to our DL to help carry some of the load, much like Howard Green was in 2010. Who knows? Maybe even a real difference maker...

As for OL, anyone look at McKinney sauntering up to the BAL line and think, "why didn't we even try to sign him after he was cut from MIN in 2011, knowing fully Cliffy was done, and we needed a LT?" I mean, that is a quality road grader there... 6-8, 340...
Offline play2win  
#29 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:32:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Who should we have signed?



FYI. Jones and Smith this year combined, matched Bishop.


I saw the games too, and I don't think either played like Desmond Bishop. Bish seems to have a much better nose for the football than either of those guys. That's just my opinion in comparing those players. I can't imagine taking Brad Jones over Bishop. I respect that his play improved this year with the switch inside, but it didn't improve our ILB play over years prior. And I like DJ Smith, but his size seems a bit limiting in the NFL.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#30 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:36:04 PM(UTC)
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At what cost? It isn't difficult to cut and paste a list without actually thinking it out.

Jason Jones, 276lb DE. Would you really want him on the packers when having to pay over 4.5 million
Antonio Garay, 320 NT. How many NT does this team need? And at over 4 million a year, and missed 1/2 the season
Abraham might have worked, but he is a 4-3 DE and would have been out of position at OLB or way undersized at DE. And cost 5+/year.
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Offline play2win  
#31 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 3:44:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
At what cost? It isn't difficult to cut and paste a list without actually thinking it out.

Jason Jones, 276lb DE. Would you really want him on the packers when having to pay over 4.5 million
Antonio Garay, 320 NT. How many NT does this team need? And at over 4 million a year, and missed 1/2 the season
Abraham might have worked, but he is a 4-3 DE and would have been out of position at OLB or way undersized at DE. And cost 5+/year.


Dude, why you bustin' my balls? I don't have the answers as to "Who." But, I do know we might have tried to add some talent. Hell, I still, to this day, don't know why we cut Merling and Muir. We should have kept them both. That DL we had was way too thin to start the season. And those were both retread players. Did Ted attempt to add a veteran of quality?

As for Abraham... so was Perry! You don't think John Abraham opposite Clay Matthews would have helped this D? Yes, it would have been costly. So is Woodson. Hawk. Williams. Finley.

Sometimes it is costly NOT adding the player.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#32 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 4:55:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
If you remember back to 2010, Jenkins missed the final 4 games and was very limited through the playoffs and while out, the front 7 didn't drop in production, Raji was a rookie and didn't come on until late in the season. Yeah, Nick was a loss, but the combination of Woodson and Burnett, is as good as Collins and Peprah. Shields coming on, and now with Hayward able to fill in the slot as well. Bishop wasn't even a starter until injury, and sorry, but he is not a great player. I'd take Brad Jones over Bishop at ILB. Clifton was a shell of what he once was hell Woodson today is more of his old self than Cliffy was in 2010. Bulaga was a rookie


I remember B.J. Raji being in his second season, not a rookie, in 2010. I don't remember Morgan Burnett playing more than 4 or so games in 2010.

There is no way Charles Woodson and Morgan Burnett together are as good as Nick Collins and Charlie Peprah tandem. Peprah was assignment sure, for the most part and was solid in run support. Neither Burnett, nor Woodson have anything close to Collins' range or speed.



"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#33 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 6:01:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Dude, why you bustin' my balls? I don't have the answers as to "Who." But, I do know we might have tried to add some talent. Hell, I still, to this day, don't know why we cut Merling and Muir. We should have kept them both. That DL we had was way too thin to start the season. And those were both retread players. Did Ted attempt to add a veteran of quality?

As for Abraham... so was Perry! You don't think John Abraham opposite Clay Matthews would have helped this D? Yes, it would have been costly. So is Woodson. Hawk. Williams. Finley.

Sometimes it is costly NOT adding the player.


Why because it think it is stupid to say. Ted should have gotten somebody. Without a name or names to back it up. Not to mention, I think it is asinine to think Ted, doesn't look at lists of who is available. And I lay odds, that his list have an idea of how much each of them are going to be looking for, and scout and coaches reports on how they would fit the team. I am certain, that Ted does look into players, that we never hear about. Some of them, don't even want to consider GB for what ever reason. Scheme, money or whatever.

Like the talk, Ted should have gotten Lynch. Well, he did try. Just didn't succeed. And there being no guarantee that he would have any more success behind our crappy blocking.

Abraham, I was actually somewhat for bringing him in, again for the right price. But I was worried not about pass rushing, but coverage. Abraham might have been able to make the move when he was young, but he isn't anymore and making that change at his age would be difficult, and close to 6 mil a year to see was a pretty high price.
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Offline porky88  
#34 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 6:07:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
If the Packer's aren't elite in the last 5-6 years, who is?

The Patriots? Sure they get to the playoffs almost every year, and have been to the superbowl twice, but they haven't won it since 2004.
The Steelers? They haven't won the SB since 2008, and have not been a good team since losing to GB in 2010.
The Giants? They have been largely inconsistent missing the playoffs 3 times in the same time frame, despite two superbowl wins.
The Ravens? They've been at the cusp for seemingly the last decade, only now getting over the hump after their SB win following the 2000 season.
The Colts? A SB win over a Rex Grossman lead bears team does not make anyone elite.

As fans of the greatest franchise in the league its awesome to have high expectations, but at some point you have to be realistic as well.

Who are these mythical "elite" teams if GB isn't one of them? They don't exist, that's the reality. If anyone doesn't think the packers have been elite over the last 5-6 years, give me your list of teams that have been better.

The Packers are the NFC's version of the Patriots. There was an article from JSonline talking about gaining respect from Bill Belichick. Bob McGinn, who made several great points about the lack of physical play on the current Packers, wrote the article. However, it went into asking about whether the Packers are physical enough to earn Belichick's respect.

This struck a nerve with me because it's a reputation versus reality type of argument. The reputation of Belichick is he's a defensive mastermind that employs physical teams. The reality is New England's defense hasn't been very good in three or four years, as evident by Sunday's loss. Like the Packers, they're a finesse team that wins many games behind an elite quarterback. The big difference is one features running backs and tight ends. The other utilizes wide receivers.

It's remarkable how perception often beats reality, but to your point, the Packers are on that level. Come August, the Super Bowl favorites in the conferences will likely be Green Bay (maybe San Francisco) and New England. Vegas has done it the last few off-seasons. Fans take this stuff for granted, but it’s refreshing to take a breath and appreciate the consistency of this great franchise. The media often is in awe of New England and Pittsburgh, but Green Bay's been there every year since '09.
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Offline steveishere  
#35 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 6:23:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
It really depends on your definition of "elite". In my mind, that says top 3. Nobody's been top 3 most of the last 5 years except MAYBE the Patriots. That's just the nature of the league, and parity is part of what makes the NFL great.


Why put a number on it at all? What if there's a huge drop off between the top 2 and number 3? Elite means the best. I think if you can make a reasonable argument for a team/person being the best then that probably means they are elite. There may be 4 teams of similar quality at the top or 1 that blows everyone else away. I would say the Packers over the last few years have easily been as good as any other top teams in the league. I would say they are an elite team.
Offline DakotaT  
#36 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 6:38:21 PM(UTC)
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One day we are going to look back at the 2010 Packers and wonder, how in the hell did they pull that off with all those injuries. That year, there wasn't a stacked team like the 49er's are today. This Packer team is starting to remind me of the Sherman Packers - rack up the cream puffs but lose to the teams that can punch us in the mouth. McCarthy can run his suffisticated offense all he wants, but what I want to see is a defense that can shut teams down. We don't have anything close to that.
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Offline play2win  
#37 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 6:58:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
One day we are going to look back at the 2010 Packers and wonder, how in the hell did they pull that off with all those injuries. That year, there wasn't a stacked team like the 49er's are today. This Packer team is starting to remind me of the Sherman Packers - rack up the cream puffs but lose to the teams that can punch us in the mouth. McCarthy can run his suffisticated offense all he wants, but what I want to see is a defense that can shut teams down. We don't have anything close to that.


Dakota, so true. Sherman fell in love with Favre and pass, pass, pass offensive game planning genius. How many SBs did he win with that?
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#38 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 7:01:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
One day we are going to look back at the 2010 Packers and wonder, how in the hell did they pull that off with all those injuries. That year, there wasn't a stacked team like the 49er's are today. This Packer team is starting to remind me of the Sherman Packers - rack up the cream puffs but lose to the teams that can punch us in the mouth. McCarthy can run his suffisticated offense all he wants, but what I want to see is a defense that can shut teams down. We don't have anything close to that.


I think there needs to be a combination of Finese and Toughness. The finese comes from the skill positions. On offense, that is QB, WR and Pass catchers, on Defense, more CB and S. Toughness from the Oline and Front 7 on defense. We are sitting pretty good with the finese. just need to toughen up the trenches. I started to see a touch of toughness from the Oline in run blocking at the tail end of the regular season as they moved away from the stretch blocking. Dline, just don't see it. People may hate Suh, but the Packers could use somebody with that sort of attitude. And mostly at the DE positions. Matthews is non-stop. Raji, isn't mean, he is finese and speed more than power.
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Offline play2win  
#39 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 7:49:05 PM(UTC)
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PFWT, yeah we do need more toughness on our DL. More from our OL wouldn't hurt either, but I question coaching more there. Run blocking is an attitude. If a coach/play caller won't commit to it, the line is forced into stepping back in pass pro and absorbing pass rush.

As for the list of FAs I posted, I was just trying to be helpful by looking up a list of players Thompson had to choose from. Simple as that.

My bigger point was that Thompson didn't do enough to cover all of the bases in assuring we got a better, more formidable DL to help our secondary. Can't just rely on the draft. He could have made a trade for a quality DL. He could have signed a FA. We've looked weak on the DL for two whole seasons now. Gave up an embarrassing number of yds via pass in 2011, and an embarrassing number of yds via run in 2012.

Something has got to give.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#40 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 8:21:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
PFWT, yeah we do need more toughness on our DL. More from our OL wouldn't hurt either, but I question coaching more there. Run blocking is an attitude. If a coach/play caller won't commit to it, the line is forced into stepping back in pass pro and absorbing pass rush.

As for the list of FAs I posted, I was just trying to be helpful by looking up a list of players Thompson had to choose from. Simple as that.

My bigger point was that Thompson didn't do enough to cover all of the bases in assuring we got a better, more formidable DL to help our secondary. Can't just rely on the draft. He could have made a trade for a quality DL. He could have signed a FA. We've looked weak on the DL for two whole seasons now. Gave up an embarrassing number of yds via pass in 2011, and an embarrassing number of yds via run in 2012.

Something has got to give.


I agree with the run blocking. Which is why I think they were able to have some success, late in the season. they started to commit to it, along with getting away from the stretch. I think Sitton, Bulaga and Lang could really be good run blocking if they actually committed to it.

As for Thompson not doing enough. He has added, to the Dline and pass rush, 5 1st or 2nd round picks in the last 4 years. I've been through the FAs. Sure there are some that I think could have helped, but none of us have any idea if they were contacted, if they wanted to come, or what the cost would have been and how that would impact the long term plans for having money to signe Clay, Rodgers, Raji or any other number of our own FA. Having Perry back alone could have made the difference on defense.
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Offline doddpower  
#41 Posted : Monday, January 21, 2013 8:32:48 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, it's not really that Ted Thompson hasn't done things to address areas of need. Unfortunately, injuries hurt the Packers more than anything. Sure, there could be talent upgrades in places, but that's always going to be the case, especially when managing a salary cap. Not every position is going to be deep. There's always going to be a thin spot, or spots. It's just the way it is with super stars such as Aaron Rodgers and CM3 coming up for new contracts. Fortunately, the Packers have a ton of young developing players that will hopefully improve and be key contributors. I still think Nick Perry will be a force in the pass rushing department, and don't really care if he's not that great in coverage. The Packers need pass rush help more than anything. If they can get one more consistent defensive linemen that provides a nice pass rush and Nick Perry stays healthy, the Packers defense will be very good. That's not a bad situation to be in. Moreover, if Bulaga, Sherrod, Newhouse, Lang, Barclay, EDS, and a couple players added in the 2013 draft are healthy, the Packers could have a good to very good offensive line, in time.

All the pieces are still there for the Packers, they just haven't came together in the past couple of seasons. Beyond some of the coaches, I'm comfortable with the talent on this team so long as they have another strong off season. I would like to see a new offensive line coach and a new defensive coordinator. However, I understand why Dom Capers likely stays this season, and I expect his defense to be pushing for a top 10 spot in points allowed in the regular season, slightly better than in 2012. The playoffs make me nervous, but the Packers defense may surprise some people next season. There's no reason to overreact about this team. It just needs a few more pieces and some luck, and they will have every opportunity to be champions again.
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24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool