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Offline QCHuskerFan  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 9:19:42 AM(UTC)

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The Packers 2 most effective DL this year were Pickett and Raji. Both are listed in excess of 335 lbs.

The balance of the 4 DL is listed at 294, 294, 304, and 300.

Is it any wonder that the Packers struggled on Run D at times? My understanding is that a 3-4 requires DL to be big walls of stone that consume blockers. Those are some pretty light (Hehe) bodies.

The Ravens DL is 349,364,313,330,315, and 295.
The 49ers are only 295, 301, 290, 285, 330, 305 though. So maybe my theory doesn't hold water. Or maybe the 49ers LB's are just so much better that it doesn't matter what their DL do.

So maybe Packers don't need DL talent upgrade as much as we need more all-you-can-eat-buffets!
Offline wpr  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 9:27:36 AM(UTC)

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I always have felt that the GB DL was a little small. But that said size is not everything or all NFL teams would play with 450 linemen.
To be really effective in the 3-4 you have to have guys who love to take on 2 blockers every play and not get much glory. There just are not a lot of Gilbert Browns out there these days. Everyone is worried about how many sacks they can get. How many tackles can they be a part of. That is one of the reasons they blew contain so many times against the Niners. There is no glory in staying out wide and watching some one else make the tackle.
Online nerdmann  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 10:44:36 AM(UTC)

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They've got a bunch of 4-3 players, in a 3-4 scheme.

Nick Perry, Jerel Worthy, Mike Daniels, Mike Neal, CJ Williams.

Pretty much everyone except BJ and Pick. LOL
Offline play2win  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 11:38:33 AM(UTC)

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I think this is a good observation. One quick look at our games against SF and SEA early this year, and v. SD in preseason, and we looked like our defenders were in a different, smaller class. Especially so up on the line. We simply do not have a wrecking crew up there, where we need it. I guess we could add CHI and NYG in there too. Different class entirely.

We must add both size and speed in our front 7 this offseason. Especially on the DL. DE has been calling out as a position of need for two years now. Pickett is a DT/NT. I see adding depth at all 3 line positions an absolute must, with quality talent. Add a LB in there too.

I really do appreciate the improved play from AJ Hawk this year, but it looks like he is kind of maxed out in terms of potential, and that is not good. His speed is marginal, and his coverage is worse than that. He made a good number of tackles, but how many of those were stuffs at the line of scrimmage? 9 TFL. 3 sacks. 0 PD. 0 INT. 0 FF. Those numbers in TFL were comparable to those of the SF LBs, better than Patrick Willis' 7 TFL and Novorro Bowman's 6 TFL, and under Ahmad Brooks, who had 12, but his other numbers, namely in pass coverage, were severely lacking.

Willis had 9 pass deflections, 2 INT and 2 FFs.
Brooks had 6 pass deflections, 1 INT and 2 FFs.
Bowman had 6 pass deflections, 1 INT and 1 FF.

Those can all be big game changing plays. Aldon Smith added another INT and a pass deflection to go with an additional 3 FFs. He had 19.5 sacks.

Clay Matthews had 13 sacks, and 11 TFL, which is comparable to Ahmad Brooks. However, he also failed pretty big, like Hawk, in the turnover department, with just 1 FF and 0 INT and a whopping 2 PDs. Looking at this, I think it is pretty telling. That is two players we are really counting on, both R1 picks, and they just didn't create enough dynamic plays for our defense at LB. I'm not even going to look up Walden's or jones' stats there.

Clearly, we need more bigger, faster, more dynamic players at a number of front our 7 positions. I do think Worthy, Daniels and Perry were all promising picks. They may contribute more next season, but we need more, way more. Figure that a larger, more formidable group on our DL could improve our LB play and DB play. I only bring up the LB play to show we were light in the pants there as well. The entire front 7 needs more size and speed.
Online nerdmann  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 11:53:13 AM(UTC)

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Pickett's 31 now isn't he?

Won't last forever.
Offline QCHuskerFan  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 12:23:06 PM(UTC)

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2013 is quite possibly Pickett's last year. At a minimum, GB needs to draft a replacement for him.

Here is what I see as our DL next year

Raji- Above average NT, 5th year
Pickett- last year probably, 13th overall
Wilson- Nothing special, hasn't gotten bigger after several years so..., 4th year
Daniels- Nothing special as a rookie, needs to gain weight, 2nd year so maybe major step up in 2013?
Neal- Nothing special, hasn't gotten bigger after several years so... 4th year
Draft Pick- NT, I hope, need a big body

Worthy- PUP or IR all season, just my guess, but rather be pessimistic, than disappointed

Without looking at CAP issues or contracts, I could see either Neal or Wilson not coming back. Need to get bigger up front.
Offline RajiRoar  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 1:47:20 PM(UTC)

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I've been sayin it forevers...

Cj Wilson, and Jarius Wynn are prime examples, they slap beer-guts on 4/3 players and call it good.



Also, we don't need fat men (Pickett) we need big athletic ends who can get push..

Just use an eyeball test on Watt or J.Smith, against any of our ends and you can see that something is amiss.

Not saying those types of players grow on trees, but it is something we don't have.
Offline play2win  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, February 5, 2013 6:15:46 PM(UTC)

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Pickett was and remains a very good player. Personally, I think he would be better in rotation with Raji at NT. If I were Ted, I'd look to upgrade his DT position and DE with both draft picks and FAs this offseason, moving him exclusively to NT. I'd add 4 DL, plan to do away with Wilson, and plan on keeping 7 to start the season. Rotate heavily. Pickett and Raji would be the only locks to make the team.

Neal, Wilson and Daniels would have to fight for spots. We need that kind of upgrade.
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nerdmann on 2/5/2013(UTC)
Offline warhawk  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:00:35 AM(UTC)

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Two big NT's from smaller schools that played well in the Senior Bowl and will probably be drafted in the later rounds:
Montori Hughes, 6'4", 327 Tenn-Martin
Brandon Williams 6'1", 341 Missouri Southern

They graded out well against the best senior OL at the Senior Bowl so they must have some potential. If one's around in the 4th or 5th round...for a rotational NT that can eat up some space?
Offline doddpower  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:17:48 PM(UTC)

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nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
They've got a bunch of 4-3 players, in a 3-4 scheme.

Nick Perry, Jerel Worthy, Mike Daniels, Mike Neal, CJ Williams.

Pretty much everyone except BJ and Pick. LOL


Both of which would likely be as effective, if not more effective in a 4-3. Especially BJ Raji, who played such a position in college.

Offline play2win  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:56:50 PM(UTC)

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doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Both of which would likely be as effective, if not more effective in a 4-3. Especially BJ Raji, who played such a position in college.



dodd, I could see that working really well. I kind of wish they would switch back to 4-3, bc the personnel, all across the board seems a better fit. Mike Neal could make a great DE in a 4-3. Perry could be the consummate speed rusher opposite. Raji and Pick in the middle. I could easily see that.

Matthews could very well have much the same positive effect in coverage in this defense as Urlacher did with CHI. I'd put Clay at WSLB.

This way they could just add depth with starter potential in the draft on the DL, along with some serious LB talent.
Offline porky88  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:18:28 PM(UTC)

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The Packers run mostly sub packages, so they draft players to fit those specific packages. Mike Neal and Jerel Worthy play inside a majority of the time in a 2-4-5. They line up between the guard and center, so they're not playing a radically different position as they did in college.

Green Bay’s base defense is C.J. Wilson, Ryan Pickett, and B.J. Raji. All three have ideal 3-4 body types. Pickett and Raji are natural nose guards and Wilson is a five technique. Frankly, having two natural nose guards on the field is great. It’s precisely what most teams covet, because it creates a matchup nightmare for many teams. That’s why Pickett remains so valuable, even though he doesn’t always play his natural position.

The Packers definitely have to add depth. They need to limit Raji's and Pickett’s snap count, for obvious reasons. I think they really miss Howard Green. He was that natural big-bodied guy that could spell Pickett and Raji. Without him, one or the other is likely to be on the field most of the time. In the case of Raji, his versatility allows him to slide a gap over and stay in sub packages.

What the Packers lack right now is the third big-bodied player (Howard Green) and another natural five-technique to backup C.J. Wilson. Wilson missed a couple of games this season, and I thought the defense missed him. They didn’t have anyone else that could fill the role, so that’s why you had some lighter players playing out of position, although I believe they think Worthy can manage the position. His injury puts a wrinkle in those plans.
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QCHuskerFan on 2/7/2013(UTC)
Offline QCHuskerFan  
#13 Posted : Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:28:40 AM(UTC)

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Absolutely agree, Porky. If I'm the opposing QB, anytime I see Raji and Pickett out of the game, I'm calling a run play. No big bodies backing them up.
Online nerdmann  
#14 Posted : Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:49:40 AM(UTC)

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porky88 said: Go to Quoted Post
The Packers run mostly sub packages, so they draft players to fit those specific packages. Mike Neal and Jerel Worthy play inside a majority of the time in a 2-4-5. They line up between the guard and center, so they're not playing a radically different position as they did in college.

Green Bay’s base defense is C.J. Wilson, Ryan Pickett, and B.J. Raji. All three have ideal 3-4 body types. Pickett and Raji are natural nose guards and Wilson is a five technique. Frankly, having two natural nose guards on the field is great. It’s precisely what most teams covet, because it creates a matchup nightmare for many teams. That’s why Pickett remains so valuable, even though he doesn’t always play his natural position.

The Packers definitely have to add depth. They need to limit Raji's and Pickett’s snap count, for obvious reasons. I think they really miss Howard Green. He was that natural big-bodied guy that could spell Pickett and Raji. Without him, one or the other is likely to be on the field most of the time. In the case of Raji, his versatility allows him to slide a gap over and stay in sub packages.

What the Packers lack right now is the third big-bodied player (Howard Green) and another natural five-technique to backup C.J. Wilson. Wilson missed a couple of games this season, and I thought the defense missed him. They didn’t have anyone else that could fill the role, so that’s why you had some lighter players playing out of position, although I believe they think Worthy can manage the position. His injury puts a wrinkle in those plans.


I'd like to see Pickett and Raji back each other up and keep each other fresh throughout the game. We have an offense that actually tries to AVOID time of possession, in an attempt to squeeze in more scoring plays. This, as we have seen, wears down the defense.

As for Wilson, I'd like to see him add 30 lbs to become a prototypical 3-4 end.
Offline doddpower  
#15 Posted : Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:55:02 AM(UTC)

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CJ Wilson is incredibly average, imo. I think he has OK size for a 3-4 DE, but he should not be a starter. He's OK against the run, but that's about it. I don't think he's very strong, and not the best block consumer. Usually gets zero push on passing plays. Yet another average player among many on the Packers defense. Wilson is great depth, but the Packers desperately need an upgrade at this position.
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