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Offline Pack93z  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:21:29 AM(UTC)
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In the later rounds of this years draft, say 5th or later, would you advocate the Packers selecting Tyrann Mathieu?

A player that was as electric as any player in 2011.. but couldn't keep himself on the field because of off field issues. The other knock is he is undersized at 5' 9".. but it would be hard pressed not to respect his coverage skills along with his play making ability in the special teams.

In no way shape or form would he be described as a "Packer Person"... but a talented player.


If nothing else.. he could give us a return element without having to place Cobb back there. Although we still have Ross as an option.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Online Zero2Cool  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:29:22 AM(UTC)
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What position? Cornerback? I have only heard the name honey badger, but don't know anything about the person/player.
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Offline Pack93z  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:34:07 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
What position? Cornerback? I have only heard the name honey badger, but don't know anything about the person/player.


Yes.. he is a 5'9" corner back that played for LSU.


Weed charges and continued use.. lead in his off field troubles. But there were other issues.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Porforis  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:42:08 AM(UTC)
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Undersized in an already somewhat undersized defense plus off the field issues = not worth it IMO unless he drops to the 6th or later which I doubt he will.
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Offline Pack93z  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 8:56:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
Undersized in an already somewhat undersized defense plus off the field issues = not worth it IMO unless he drops to the 6th or later which I doubt he will.


Sorry I had to giggle.. that decisive line between 5th and the 6th has been drawn. Big Grin

Now for my real comment.. is I think he goes late because the NFL, may put him in the drug testing program using their discretion. Basically, he may be tested more often than the average player thus increasing the chances he winds up unavailable for those reasons. I think he very well might slide all the way out of the rounds in fact. He wasn't just popped once.. it was multiple times he tested positive.. couple that other concerns off the field.. he is a red flag player.


Quote:
It's important to note that NFL club officials in this case are only referencing failed drug tests administered by the prospect's college that wind up on his background report, not the drug tests the league conducts as part of the scouting process at last month's NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis. Players with drug test failures in college are not automatically enrolled in the NFL's drug-testing program upon being drafted, but those players can be added at the league's discretion, depending on the type of drug used, how recent the failed test occurred and if there were multiple failures.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated...index.html#ixzz2LSH89Yc1

Message modified by user Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:07:11 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline nerdmann  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:09:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
Undersized in an already somewhat undersized defense plus off the field issues = not worth it IMO unless he drops to the 6th or later which I doubt he will.


If he drops out like Shields did, I'd love to see Ted bring him in. He's too short to go up against Megatron, but if the dude can play the ball in the air, there will be a place for him. Especially if he's a return man.

Losing Woody might hurt us as far as reclamation projects, but this team has traditionally been a positive environment for "malcontents."

If he pulls a Brandon Underwood, no big loss.
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Offline nerdmann  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:14:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Yes.. he is a 5'9" corner back that played for LSU.


Weed charges and continued use.. lead in his off field troubles. But there were other issues.


Definitely does not seem to shy away from contact. Strips the ball out too.
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Offline Yerko  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:26:48 AM(UTC)
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In my post for the draft I had said that if he is sitting there in the 5th round to grab him. Yes, he is 5'9" but if you all want someone who is going to come up and hit a guy regardless of their size, he will do it. When I watched him play, he reminded me of a young Charles Woodson. He is EVERYWHERE on the field. He has great coverage skills and is a great returner. At 5th round, you cannot go wrong in selecting him. I'd go as far as saying even 4th round would be okay. He adds the nastiness the Packers need on defense.

For once, I advocate a player with off field issues. Not that I believe it until I see it, but he did state he is/has changed. The KID made mistakes and realizes that all he has in life is football.
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Offline wpr  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:36:50 AM(UTC)
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LCB 38 Williams, Tramon SFA06 31House, Davon 11/4 24Bush, Jarrett W/Car
RCB 37 Shields, Sam RFA 29Hayward, Casey 12/2 23Nixon, James SFA12

Don't they normally carry 5 CB? Let's say they do keep 6. I don't see him jumping over Hayward at all. He could get past House down the road but not at the start of the season. Bush and Nixon are the bubble players. Everyone loves to bash Bush but he is a standout on ST. Will Mathieu come in and do the same? If not the best he can do is land the #6 spot on the team with an opportunity to move up in the future.

That said I would not want to use the # 5 pick on the # 6 CB on the team.
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Offline Pack93z  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 9:49:41 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
LCB 38 Williams, Tramon SFA06 31House, Davon 11/4 24Bush, Jarrett W/Car
RCB 37 Shields, Sam RFA 29Hayward, Casey 12/2 23Nixon, James SFA12

Don't they normally carry 5 CB? Let's say they do keep 6. I don't see him jumping over Hayward at all. He could get past House down the road but not at the start of the season. Bush and Nixon are the bubble players. Everyone loves to bash Bush but he is a standout on ST. Will Mathieu come in and do the same? If not the best he can do is land the #6 spot on the team with an opportunity to move up in the future.

That said I would not want to use the # 5 pick on the # 6 CB on the team.


Good post.. I think it will be interesting already for the Packers and keeping players in the secondary. Adding another talent is questionable.. but for me, his value would be as a returner next season to keep Cobb (whom will be counted on even more in the offense) free from the duties.

But as a CB.. yes, that is one area at the moment the Packers don't need to address in the draft.


I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline wpr  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:07:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post


But as a CB.. yes, that is one area at the moment the Packers don't need to address in the draft.




I skipped over it but of the 6 players on the depth chart, 3 of them (both starters) came off the street. This is an area that Uncle Teddy has excelled at.

So IF Tyann slides out of the draft all together...
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Offline nerdmann  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:26:21 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Good post.. I think it will be interesting already for the Packers and keeping players in the secondary. Adding another talent is questionable.. but for me, his value would be as a returner next season to keep Cobb (whom will be counted on even more in the offense) free from the duties.

But as a CB.. yes, that is one area at the moment the Packers don't need to address in the draft.




It's not a weighted area of need, but if he's the BPA, you take him.

How many injuries did we have last year? Look at all the guys we lost at ILB. Could happen at any position. If a guy falls to you, you take him. Especially this late in the draft.
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Offline doddpower  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:30:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
LCB 38 Williams, Tramon SFA06 31House, Davon 11/4 24Bush, Jarrett W/Car
RCB 37 Shields, Sam RFA 29Hayward, Casey 12/2 23Nixon, James SFA12

Don't they normally carry 5 CB? Let's say they do keep 6. I don't see him jumping over Hayward at all. He could get past House down the road but not at the start of the season. Bush and Nixon are the bubble players. Everyone loves to bash Bush but he is a standout on ST. Will Mathieu come in and do the same? If not the best he can do is land the #6 spot on the team with an opportunity to move up in the future.

That said I would not want to use the # 5 pick on the # 6 CB on the team.


Drafting players, especially in the later rounds, isn't about getting a starter in their rookie season, necessarily. Things change so fast in the NFL. He could start his rookie season as the #6 CB, but could end up being #3+ in his 2nd or 3rd season given any number of circumstances. Viewing the pick of a talented player through the above lens just doesn't make much sense to me. Additionally, as mentioned, he likely would have a lot of special teams value, as well. Besides, Tramon Williams has been regressing it would seem for two seasons (can it all be attributed to injury?), and House really hasn't shown a whole lot yet during the actual season, although mostly due to injury. Bush is becoming somewhat expensive, and may be replaced in a season or so. He shouldn't be on the field for the defense, anyway.

Corner back is one of the Packers deepest positions, but there are still several questions about the group, for sure. Adding a good to very good talent late in the draft would be nice.



Offline play2win  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:46:05 AM(UTC)
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I don't have any problem with Ted drafting him if he is so inclined. The kid is a player, and many have made poor decisions early in life. He could be a gem. Might go way higher than R5 - could also fall out of the draft entirely. Green Bay could be a good fit, with a really talented group to compete against. Had he not had any off field issues, he could have been a top10? Top 20? Worth a shot in my opinion.
Offline wpr  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:57:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
Drafting players, especially in the later rounds, isn't about getting a starter in their rookie season, necessarily. Things change so fast in the NFL. He could start his rookie season as the #6 CB, but could end up being #3+ in his 2nd or 3rd season given any number of circumstances. Viewing the pick of a talented player through the above lens just doesn't make much sense to me. Additionally, as mentioned, he likely would have a lot of special teams value, as well. Besides, Tramon Williams has been regressing it would seem for two seasons (can it all be attributed to injury?), and House really hasn't shown a whole lot yet during the actual season, although mostly due to injury. Bush is becoming somewhat expensive, and may be replaced in a season or so. He shouldn't be on the field for the defense, anyway.

Corner back is one of the Packers deepest positions, but there are still several questions about the group, for sure. Adding a good to very good talent late in the draft would be nice.





dodd I don't disagree with you. I am simply trying to add some perspective to the mix.

The basis of my post is, "Is there room for him"? "Do you want to use a #5 pick on the 5th or 6th CB"?

If the answer is yes then go ahead. If not then don't.

There are always injuries and players falling down the depth chart while others climb on every team every season. I never ever said he couldn't climb. I said I didn't expect him to be a #4 when the season opens. Which means it is possible for him to be the #4 by the end of the season.

As far as ST, I realize he can return kicks but that is not Bush's job. And GB already has Ross to return kicks. If Bush is gone who becomes the gunner? Someone has to be there to down the punt at the 3 yard line. Not every one can do what he does or do it as well as he does it.
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Online Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:00:23 AM(UTC)
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This guy won't amount to anything until he's on his second team. Book it.
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Offline Bigbyfan  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:21:14 PM(UTC)
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The main concern I have with him, that I'm surprised no one has mentioned, is that he has been out of football for a year. What kind of shape will he be in? Also that's one less year he has had to develop as a football player.
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Offline play2win  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:48:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
This guy won't amount to anything until he's on his second team. Book it.


Why do you say that? I'm just curious. I don't have any kind of monster desire for him to be a Packers player, but if they see he is right for the team, and he's there at a decent place to take that chance...
Offline JustJeff  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:50:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bigbyfan Go to Quoted Post
The main concern I have with him, that I'm surprised no one has mentioned, is that he has been out of football for a year. What kind of shape will he be in? Also that's one less year he has had to develop as a football player.

He's been working out with Patrick Peterson (former teammates at LSU).

The only way I see Teddy Ballgame drafting him is if he can play safety. Thompson has never had a corner under 5' 11" but has had a few 5' 10" guys at safety (Derrick Martin is the only one I recall at the moment).

Ron Wolf had a rule of "never drafting short corners." What Wolf never said was what constituted a "short corner." The cutoff for Wolf apparently (outside of bowing to his new DC - Ray Rhodes w/T-Buck), Wolf never dipped below 5' 11" and preferred guys 6' and above. Teddy Ballgame has stuck to that... rigidly.

As for the original question, I would take a late flier on him. Someone compared him to Woodson. Mathieu reminds me of a young Antoine Winfield. Smallish, ferocious in run support, coverage skills that make up for short stature. Like Winfield, I think the play-making opportunities drop, playing on Sundays.


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Offline Rockmolder  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 5:57:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JustJeff Go to Quoted Post
He's been working out with Patrick Peterson (former teammates at LSU).

The only way I see Teddy Ballgame drafting him is if he can play safety. Thompson has never had a corner under 5' 11" but has had a few 5' 10" guys at safety (Derrick Martin is the only one I recall at the moment).

Ron Wolf had a rule of "never drafting short corners." What Wolf never said was what constituted a "short corner." The cutoff for Wolf apparently (outside of bowing to his new DC - Ray Rhodes w/T-Buck), Wolf never dipped below 5' 11" and preferred guys 6' and above. Teddy Ballgame has stuck to that... rigidly.

As for the original question, I would take a late flier on him. Someone compared him to Woodson. Mathieu reminds me of a young Antoine Winfield. Smallish, ferocious in run support, coverage skills that make up for short stature. Like Winfield, I think the play-making opportunities drop, playing on Sundays.




We traded Tony Moll for Martin, just to get something. Turned out to be quite the STs player. I don't think anyone every expected him to really play a whole lot of CB.

I'm not quite sure how Ted sees this, but in my opinion, you'll only get flawed players in the later rounds. His flaw are his character (that being debatable, as I get the feeling that 2/3th of the NFL players smoke weed) and his size. You just have to ask yourself if he can contribute to your team despite those flaws... And I think he most certainly can.

Like said before, you don't put him on Calvin Johnson or someone like that, but he is physical enough and quick enough to be a great match-up against a guy like Amendola, Welker etc.

And if that doesn't work out, you still have quite the returner.

And if even that doesn't work out, he has all the tools to be an amazing STs player.

If he's there in the 5th, you have to take him. Only thing is, I really doubt that he'll be there. A team like the Bengals or Titans will take a chance on a kid like him far before Ted even thinks about pulling the trigger.
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Offline nerdmann  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:15:42 PM(UTC)
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Given his size and aggressiveness, he'd probably be a vintage slot guy. Stuffing the run, attacking the QB covering WRs and going for the strip.
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Offline JustJeff  
#22 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:05:31 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
We traded Tony Moll for Martin, just to get something. Turned out to be quite the STs player. I don't think anyone every expected him to really play a whole lot of CB.


Martin was a safety. My point was Wolf and Thompson don't like short corners. They were both okay dipping below 5' 11" for safeties, but not CB's.

Derrick Martin was the only one I recalled off the top of my head, and I remembered he was a safety.

Here are all of the sub 5' 11" defensive backs to whom Teddy Ballgame has given a roster slot.

S Marviel Underwood 5' 10" Drafted round 4 - 2005 (spent three years with us appearing in 16 games)

CB Therrian Fontenot 5' 10" Free Agent - 2005 (late season addition appeared in 1 game & was traded)

CB Frank Walker 5' 10" Free Agent - 2007 (spent one season with us appearing in 12 games)

CB Joe Porter 5' 10" Free Agent - 2008 (late season addition - four weeks on the roster - appeared in 1 game)

S Derrick Martin 5' 10" Trade (spent two full seasons with us appearing in 19 games)

The only guys who got any serious time from scrimmage were Walker whose combine height was 5106 (5' 10.75") and the safeties.

Thompson is okay with shorter safeties, but rarely looks at shorter corners.

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Online Zero2Cool  
#23 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:53:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Why do you say that? I'm just curious. I don't have any kind of monster desire for him to be a Packers player, but if they see he is right for the team, and he's there at a decent place to take that chance...


He has discipline issues. He's most likely of the mindset that once on an NFL team things will be different. He's going to realize being on an NFL team is going to require more self discipline. Something he's shown he has little to none of. I'd say after he gets cut from his first team, that'll be the wake up call that he'll need to improve. Something like Cris Carter.
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Offline PackerTraxx  
#24 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:05:24 AM(UTC)
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If Ted Thompson felt good about his interview I would have no problem drafting him in the 6th or 7th. I would feel much better if Woody was still here to mentor him. I'd prefer a couple of 6' - 6'2" CBs but don't pass on talent if the head matches the body.
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Offline play2win  
#25 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 8:54:51 AM(UTC)
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I will say this, it doesn't follow a line of getting bigger, faster players. In playing the Giants, the 49ers, the Seahawks, I came away thinking we must get bigger, faster, more athletic, across the board.
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