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Offline macbob  
#31 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 4:12:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
What I don't pretend to be is a GM or a coach, thinking that I can evaluate what a player is or isn't worth.


I'm not pretending to be a GM or a coach when I say I think he needs to restructure his contract down or the Packers should go another route. I'm expressing my opinion. Which is what people do on this site.

Time will tell whether or not the Packers GM decides to keep AJ at his current cost or asks him to restructure lower. Time will also tell if AJ agress to restructure and what the Packers GM will do if he doesn't.

That's what they're paying Ted Thompson to do.

I like AJ. He's assignment sure, and a good leader on defense. But do I like him $5.5M worth (his base + misc bonuses)? No.

I'm expressing the opinion that if I were GM I think there are bigger needs on the team that I would rather spend those millions on than a two-down LB.

If it's now a requirement that we have to be a GM or a coach to express an opinion on how a player is playing, what a player is worth, etc, then I think
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Offline warhawk  
#32 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 5:29:39 PM(UTC)
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Hawk is a steady player but not dynamic so the question is what is steady worth? He doesn't sack the QB or force a lot of fumbles or even make many tackles behind the LOS. He's not really even stout against the run although I did see him more involved up by the LOS then I have in past years.
Again, you have LB's that make dynamic plays but screw up assignments too but you don't hear about that as much as the sack in the 4th qtr with the opposing team driving the ball.
If he did that a little more often there wouldn't be the need for this much discussion.
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Offline steveishere  
#33 Posted : Sunday, March 3, 2013 10:35:07 PM(UTC)
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lol buckeye why are you acting like people here have some personal problem with Hawk? Some of your comments are completely absurd. If Hawk was the baddest ass linebacker in the world (or even a top 20 baddest ass linebacker) everyone here would love him. Nobody here dislikes Hawk because he's AJ Hawk, they dislike him because he makes a shit ton of cash and is completely meh. Regardless of where he was drafted he's just not that great of a player.
Online Zero2Cool  
#34 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 5:49:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
lol buckeye why are you acting like people here have some personal problem with Hawk? Some of your comments are completely absurd. If Hawk was the baddest ass linebacker in the world (or even a top 20 baddest ass linebacker) everyone here would love him. Nobody here dislikes Hawk because he's AJ Hawk, they dislike him because he makes a shit ton of cash and is completely meh. Regardless of where he was drafted he's just not that great of a player.


Shouldn't that disdain feeling be aimed towards Ted Thompson though? He's the one who approved the contract.
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yooperfan on 3/4/2013(UTC)
Offline Yerko  
#35 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 9:34:05 AM(UTC)
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AJ Hawk is a serviceable ILB. Serviceable ILBs do not deserve to be the 4th highest paid on a team. Restructure or bring your talents to another team.

Desmond Bishop is coming off a nasty injury and still is in rehab. Last heard, he said he was around 80%. Risk of re-injury...high.

DJ Smith is coming off a nasty injury as well. No news on recovery so far. Knee injury so mark it as a risk of re-injury...high.

Brad Jones is a career back-up.
Quote:
Would you rather allocate those dollars to a younger player like Brad Jones?

No.

Dezman Moses is still a rookie. I like what he has done but it isn't enough to put stock in a starting role for him.

With all that said, while I think the best option is to keep AJ Hawk with the Packers with a restructured contract and also draft an ILB within the first 3 rounds that can come in and have an instant impact. To me, it just seems like regardless of what the Packers do with this position, they are gambling for next season.
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Offline play2win  
#36 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 9:36:15 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Shouldn't that disdain feeling be aimed towards Ted Thompson though? He's the one who approved the contract.


You are correct Sir!

I really, really like Ted Thompson, and I think we are lucky to have such a dedicated GM heading our team. However, he does have some misgivings in hanging onto "his" players a bit too tightly. The Hawk contract was a pretty severe overpay, only made so because Hawk made ZERO FFs, ZERO FRs, ZERO INTs, and only 3 PDef since signing that contract after winning the SB. He had ZERO PDef through 16 games last season.

I appreciate his 4.5 sacks in 2 years, and his leading the team in tackles, his seemingly improved play in 2012. But I am aware, fully aware, that he does not make many, if any, game changing plays that are often required of the QB of your defense in the middle. His being paid as one of the best LBs in the NFL, and not delivering top LB play. That is what most fans find fault with.

Ted signed him to that monster contract.

I think Ted holds to maxims a bit too often. Draft and develop. Re-sign your own players. Don't overpay. Well, if you are re-signing players who can't get you to the next level just because they are yours, your draft and develop players, that may be problematic. And, if he refuses to pay a top talent at an important position on our team to let him "test the market," he ought to make certain that he has a plan in place to cover that loss of talent. I believe that may be one of his greatest faults. It can take years for him to cover the loss of true impact players.

Getting a stud FA, or two, can go a long way toward assembling a serious talent group to go all the way. As for Hawk, his contract is limiting our options. He is a giant cap hit, and we are not getting the value for that in his level of play.
Offline play2win  
#37 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 9:45:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Yerko Go to Quoted Post
AJ Hawk is a serviceable ILB. Serviceable ILBs do not deserve to be the 4th highest paid on a team. Restructure or bring your talents to another team.

Desmond Bishop is coming off a nasty injury and still is in rehab. Last heard, he said he was around 80%. Risk of re-injury...high.

DJ Smith is coming off a nasty injury as well. No news on recovery so far. Knee injury so mark it as a risk of re-injury...high.

Brad Jones is a career back-up.

No.

Dezman Moses is still a rookie. I like what he has done but it isn't enough to put stock in a starting role for him.

With all that said, while I think the best option is to keep AJ Hawk with the Packers with a restructured contract and also draft an ILB within the first 3 rounds that can come in and have an instant impact. To me, it just seems like regardless of what the Packers do with this position, they are gambling for next season.


What the Packers really need, are 3 more top talents at LB. We have one. Pretty important to have exceptional LB play if your D is running a 3-4...

Brad Jones is just into the OK category - that was an improvement from the NOTHING category of the previous year. We shouldn't be counting on Jones, Smith, Hawk, Walden, Lattimore, Zombo. Bishop is a question mark, and so is Perry. I'm hopeful for Moses and Manning. The only one we can count on is Matthews, and even he has trouble staying healthy through 16 games!

This really makes me feel badly for Capers, because it is clear he has not had a whole lot to work with. Our DL sucks. Our Safeties have been struggling since losing Collins. IMO, we must add DE, NT, ILB (2) OLB (1) and S (1) this offseason to improve that talent base. Hell, why not a DT too? All of those positions require upgrades.

Ted has been "Bargain Basementing" our defense, while severely overpaying Hawk as some kind of crazy overcompensation for what? His selecting him #5 overall all those years ago? Look what that has done. Now he's got the only two DL that matter on this team coming up for re-signings in Raji and Pickett. Should be interesting. He has GOT to throw some cash at this front 7 group.
Offline Pack93z  
#38 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 9:46:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
You are correct Sir!

I really, really like Ted Thompson, and I think we are lucky to have such a dedicated GM heading our team. However, he does have some misgivings in hanging onto "his" players a bit too tightly. The Hawk contract was a pretty severe overpay, only made so because Hawk made ZERO FFs, ZERO FRs, ZERO INTs, and only 3 PDef since signing that contract after winning the SB. He had ZERO PDef through 16 games last season.

I appreciate his 4.5 sacks in 2 years, and his leading the team in tackles, his seemingly improved play in 2012. But I am aware, fully aware, that he does not make many, if any, game changing plays that are often required of the QB of your defense in the middle. His being paid as one of the best LBs in the NFL, and not delivering top LB play. That is what most fans find fault with.

Ted signed him to that monster contract.

I think Ted holds to maxims a bit too often. Draft and develop. Re-sign your own players. Don't overpay. Well, if you are re-signing players who can't get you to the next level just because they are yours, your draft and develop players, that may be problematic. And, if he refuses to pay a top talent at an important position on our team to let him "test the market," he ought to make certain that he has a plan in place to cover that loss of talent. I believe that may be one of his greatest faults. It can take years for him to cover the loss of true impact players.

Getting a stud FA, or two, can go a long way toward assembling a serious talent group to go all the way. As for Hawk, his contract is limiting our options. He is a giant cap hit, and we are not getting the value for that in his level of play.


Actually I think it was a move, that at the time, there were some serious questions in the depth department at the interior linebacker coupled with the release of Nick Barnett. Remember this team was coming off a SB win with a ton of players sitting on the IR.

Basically it was maybe an overpay to ensure some continuity for the defense.. especially one that calls out the plays.

If anything, especially with Jennings as an example, Ted has shown that he is impartial in terms of "his" players vs not his. I think it always comes back to the same formula, with these variables:(Value, Supply, Age and duration of contract)

Supply being on difficult it may be to replace the player.. IE do we have a suitable replacement on the roster or can I obtain one via the Draft or at value on the FA market.

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline play2win  
#39 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:00:00 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Actually I think it was a move, that at the time, there were some serious questions in the depth department at the interior linebacker coupled with the release of Nick Barnett. Remember this team was coming off a SB win with a ton of players sitting on the IR.

Basically it was maybe an overpay to ensure some continuity for the defense.. especially one that calls out the plays.

If anything, especially with Jennings as an example, Ted has shown that he is impartial in terms of "his" players vs not his. I think it always comes back to the same formula, with these variables:(Value, Supply, Age and duration of contract)

Supply being on difficult it may be to replace the player.. IE do we have a suitable replacement on the roster or can I obtain one via the Draft or at value on the FA market.



I would offer Hawk, Finley and Justin Harrell as some examples... impartial? Jennings is a very simple case ala James Jones. We'll see what other teams are willing to pony up. Ted has been stockpiling WRs, so the loss of Jennings to a monster offer won't hurt quite as much.

The "at value" re FA market thing is starting to get me a bit. The only impact FAs Ted has really signed to our D are Pickett and Woodson. Those signings happened at the beginning of his tenure. Since that time, any FAs signed have been strictly bottom of scale types who were 2nd or 3rd string players on their respective teams.

Ted has not had an impact signing in FA for our defense in years.
Offline Pack93z  
#40 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:17:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
I would offer Hawk, Finley and Justin Harrell as some examples... impartial?


For every Hawk I offer a Brohm (2nd),Lee (2nd), Thompson (4th), Rouse (3rd), Hodge (3rd) for examples.

I think Ted gives a pick every chance to contribute.. and if they can't he moves on. Brohm and Rouse were moved quickly off the roster..

Hawk and Finley contribute.. I think Finley contributes more in presence than overall production in terms of what strain he places on the defense in terms of match up.

Further more.. if the worst offense Ted makes is overpaying a solid NFL linebacker in Hawk.. well then I think we are in pretty good shape. :)

This from a guy that has been banging on Hawk since about 2008 for his reactive play in place of using his instincts that made him special in college.

Message modified by user Monday, March 4, 2013 10:33:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline play2win  
#41 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:25:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
For every Hawk I offer a Brohm (2nd),Lee (2nd), Thompson (4th), Rouse (3rd), Hodge (3rd) for examples.

I think Ted gives a pick every chance to contribute.. and if they can't he moves on. Brohm and Rouse were moved quickly off the roster..


touche. Well done my friend! Laughing

Yeah, no GM is perfect. It is a tough business. I do wish that he would finally add some players alongside Pick and Raji, and Matthews for that matter. It is almost like he's hunting through the FA scrap heap and late round picks hoping for a miracle. Or is he? What exactly is he looking for?

We need some big time talent added to our D, and the draft alone will not do it.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
yooperfan on 3/4/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#42 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:26:04 AM(UTC)
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What's with all the Brad Jones hate? Dude's our only LB who can really cover. He's an upgrade over Hawk, imo.

Now I've been as critical of Hawk as anyone, but let's keep in mind, the DL is a bit weak. The job of a 3-4 DL is to keep blockers off your LBs, so the LBs can make plays. I wouldn't necessarily say that's been happening consistently.

If we can stack the DL, I think it might help Hawk and Bishop look better.

But I still think the biggest key is having quality depth at OLB.
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Offline wpr  
#43 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:31:45 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
What's with all the Brad Jones hate? Dude's our only LB who can really cover. He's an upgrade over Hawk, imo.

Now I've been as critical of Hawk as anyone, but let's keep in mind, the DL is a bit weak. The job of a 3-4 DL is to keep blockers off your LBs, so the LBs can make plays. I wouldn't necessarily say that's been happening consistently.

If we can stack the DL, I think it might help Hawk and Bishop look better.

But I still think the biggest key is having quality depth at OLB.


Wow. Uncle Teddy and Mike are so stupid. They have been sticking Hawk out there play after play and game after game while leaving Jones to rot on the bench. "What the hell is going on out there?" They don't deserve to be a part of the team if they miss something as simple as this.

Let's make nerdmann GM and HC.
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Offline Yerko  
#44 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:39:49 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
What's with all the Brad Jones hate? Dude's our only LB who can really cover. He's an upgrade over Hawk, imo.


Disagree.

Please explain.
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Offline play2win  
#45 Posted : Monday, March 4, 2013 10:41:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
What's with all the Brad Jones hate? Dude's our only LB who can really cover. He's an upgrade over Hawk, imo.

Now I've been as critical of Hawk as anyone, but let's keep in mind, the DL is a bit weak. The job of a 3-4 DL is to keep blockers off your LBs, so the LBs can make plays. I wouldn't necessarily say that's been happening consistently.

If we can stack the DL, I think it might help Hawk and Bishop look better.

But I still think the biggest key is having quality depth at OLB.


I don't hate Brad Jones, and I thought last season was his best in a Packers uniform. I just think we need better talent all around at LB outside of Matthews. Jones is not one of those true ILB types. He was chosen as more of an edge rusher in the end of the 2009 draft. He did next to nothing in 2011, but played well on STs. Yes, he could improve beyond what he did in 2012.

I'm just thinking we need to be more formidable. If you have an edge rusher type filling the middle of your D.... I doubt that is what we are after in terms of improving. Our run stopping was abysmal, this after not being able to stop the pass at all the previous season. We gave up epic rushing yards last season with Hawk and Jones in the middle. I'm not saying it is all their fault. Raji looked to have regressed. CJ Wilson was just OK. Pickett was our best DL. Worthy appeared to struggle. Neal seemed inconsistent, but he flashed some promise. Hawk's play was improved last season too in my eyes. But, we need upgrades to dominant football players at both of those positions, and many others.

Your point about the DL and how their play affects the LBs is well taken. I thought, overall, our DL had another down year, making it two in a row. Better than 2011, but not by a whole lot. That down play did nothing for our LBs. Surround some of our current players with better players, and we might see some real improvement. We need at least a top LB and DL added.

FWIW, here is a little bit on Jones possibly being sought by NYG: http://www.bigblueview.c...brad-jones-mlb-green-bay
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