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play2win  
#21 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 6:02:42 PM(UTC)
So, apparently we drafted, but didn't "develop" Quarless, Williams and Taylor. We just have no one to play TE if we don't give Jermichael Finley $9,000,000.

I would have rather paid that to Dumervil, or Matthews/Raji, etc in a new deal.
DoddPower  
#22 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 6:08:57 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
So, apparently we drafted, but didn't "develop" Quarless, Williams and Taylor. We just have no one to play TE if we don't give Jermichael Finley $9,000,000.

I would have rather paid that to Dumervil, or Matthews/Raji, etc in a new deal.



For 2013, Finely >>> than the other options on this team. I was high on Williams, but he hasn't developed as I expected (although I still think he can). Quarless could be serviceable, but his health is the main question with him. Perhaps if the team was confident he could return to his pre-injury form, the situation with Finley would have been different. Taylor definitely isn't in the same league in terms of a receiving tight-end and is more of a H-back/special teams/bottom of the roster guy.

As for resigning Mathews/Raji, I really don't think the few million difference will have any significant consequence on any of that.
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#23 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 6:12:56 PM(UTC)
As I understand, if we had cut him, there would have been a $3 million + cap hit. I wish he could have been restructured for a lower cap number and longer term, but what's done is done. All we can do is hope for Finley to snap out of the dropping thing. The good news, of course, is a lot of players really come through big in their contract season. The bad news is if that does happen, it will be extremely difficult to keep him beyond this season.
Gaycandybacon  
#24 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 7:14:56 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
The contract was signed last year and was a two year deal, therefore this isn't a new signing or a new move or anything.

I don't understand why so many are bitching about this, yet where are the complaints about the Packers paying the #1 QB a salary that's probably not even top 10! OH wait, said QB doesn't speak his mind freely via Twitter and the media doesn't twist his words around making him look more foolish than he is.

Bashing Finley doesn't make you cool. It shows you're short sighted.

Sometimes I think Packers fans dislike their own players more than the rest of the NFL. Crazy.


Lol I think Bears fans despise their players more than us in ours.

But anyways I agree.. Finley hasn't had off the field problems.. All he does is talk. Who gives 2 shits. Sure he's dropped a couple balls, but he is a monster receiver and attracts attention throughout games. He's still young 25?26? Let him develop as a player and as a man. I think he's on his way.

I'm fine with them keeping him, we lost Crabtree to FA and we don't know what we have in Quarless or Williams. We can focus on this Defense and Oline now that we don't have to worrie about getting a Top TE in the draft.
play2win  
#25 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 8:30:14 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
As I understand, if we had cut him, there would have been a $3 million + cap hit. I wish he could have been restructured for a lower cap number and longer term, but what's done is done. All we can do is hope for Finley to snap out of the dropping thing. The good news, of course, is a lot of players really come through big in their contract season. The bad news is if that does happen, it will be extremely difficult to keep him beyond this season.


It was my understanding we would have only eaten $0.5M, and realized $8.25 off of our cap. That is a lot of money with those 3 re-signings looming.

I realize it is just one year, but, wouldn't you have rather signed Elvis Dumervil to be opposite Matthews, like the Ravens now have opposite Suggs, and just draft another TE? How about front loading a Raji Re-signing? Or Matthews?

How many years has Finley had to prove himself?

I like Ted Thompson, and I'm grateful to have him as our GM, but the guy does make his mistakes like any other GM will. Calling any of those out is blasphemy. Oh well. I guess now he will be more committed, more dedicated to knowing his routes, and he won't drop as many passes.

RollEyes
porky88  
#26 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 8:46:23 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
So, apparently we drafted, but didn't "develop" Quarless, Williams and Taylor. We just have no one to play TE if we don't give Jermichael Finley $9,000,000.

I would have rather paid that to Dumervil, or Matthews/Raji, etc in a new deal.

And we still have the money to pay Matthews, Raji, Shields, Rodgers, and so on. The Packers are very good at budgeting.

Finley is on a one-year contract. It's not a big deal. He'll make a lot of money this year and then his contract is off the books. This has no long-term implications to the Green Bay Packers. That's why they're sticking with him.

In addition, Finley was a vital part of the team after the bye. He caught the ball well, blocked well, and shut his mouth. His blocking is actually an underrated asset. He’s improved leaps and bounds as a blocker.

He also caught 32 passes in his last seven regular-season games. Over that same span, Randall Cobb caught 35 passes (in six games) and James Jones caught 24 passes. If Finley plays as he did in the second half of 2012, then he could catch 70 passes next season. I know it’s a big if, but a one-year contract limits the risks.
Gaycandybacon  
#27 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 9:22:30 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
It was my understanding we would have only eaten $0.5M, and realized $8.25 off of our cap. That is a lot of money with those 3 re-signings looming.

I realize it is just one year, but, wouldn't you have rather signed Elvis Dumervil to be opposite Matthews, like the Ravens now have opposite Suggs, and just draft another TE? How about front loading a Raji Re-signing? Or Matthews?


RollEyes


Why would we do that when we have Perry who only went on IR with a broken hand and is coming off his rookie year?

We are also due for another backup passrusher in the draft anyways.
DoddPower  
#28 Posted : Monday, March 25, 2013 9:49:20 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
It was my understanding we would have only eaten $0.5M, and realized $8.25 off of our cap. That is a lot of money with those 3 re-signings looming.


And as I've already mentioned, the Packers would have likely tried to replace Finley with another tight end that cost a minimum of $4-5 million a season, making the net gain only ~$3 million. Of course there's no guarantee any street free agent that was a suitable replacement would have signed with the Packers and/or quickly learn the system. I guess the Packers could have stuck with the other tight ends that are the roster and HOPE to get a solid player in the draft, but that is far from a guarantee either, and could mean passing on a stud defensive player in the top two rounds to do so (and of course, who knows how a rookie would pan out in the first few seasons). I'd rather roll with Finley for another season, who is a solid player, and focus on other areas. The $3 or so million in savings from cutting him wouldn't make the difference in signing any big-time free agent or Rodgers, CM3, Raji, etc. I really don't get that argument at all. It's of little consequence in the big scheme of things. It certainly wasn't mutually exclusive, e.g. Finley or a player like Dumervil. Even if Ted cut Finley, he wasn't going to sign any big-time free agent, imo. It's just how he rolls.

Off subject and I know it won't happen, but in the back of my mind I'm still hoping for a signing like James Harrison on a reasonable deal. He sure would make a nice insurance policy/pass-rusher should Perry struggle for another season.
MintBaconDrivel  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 2:16:00 AM(UTC)
PackersNews said:
Jermichael Finley said on Twitter Monday afternoon that he'll remain with the Packers this season, and a source confirmed that the Packers tight end didn't take a pay cut or have his contract changed in any way by the 3 p.m. deadline.
Rockmolder  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:08:53 AM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Remember how the Packers stood behind Mason Crosby last year? He earned that loyalty.

Sure, he'll be tested this year in TC, but he earned the right to have the team stand behind him. How? Because when they were F'ing with his holder for that entire year (2009?) he shut his pie hole and took the responsibility on himself. Didn't blame the coaches, didn't blame the holder, didn't act like a punk-ass little bitch.

Donald Driver? Same thing. Respect.

Ryan Grant, on the other hand, used the Favre fiasco to leverage a contract. We see how the team let him hang until he was the only option in the league last year. If we wouldn't have had multiple injuries, he wouldn't even have been back.

Thus far, Jerkmike falls into the latter category. He's got the team (somewhat) over a barrel right now. That won't last forever.



If this makes any kind of difference in your decision making, you're doing a bad job.

There's no place for loyalty in the NFL. If you can get someone better (and cheaper), you go for that. That Driver stuck around last year still baffles me.
Rockmolder  
#31 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:34:41 AM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
If Finley would have been cut, they would have likely pursued another via free agency (Dustin Keller, et al.). Best case scenario, those guys would have signed for $4-5 million a year. Rock stated he thinks Keller is better, but that's subjective. He's smaller (6'2), and still not a good blocker. There were/are some other options out there, but the net gain is likely only $2-4 million in savings AT MOST. The $8 million number sounds like a lot, but in order to have any kind of serviceable replacement, the savings would only be a few million for someone that is arguably equally as talented as Finley with "less potential," and that isn't familiar with the Packers system yet. That's assuming they could even sign those players period, or for anything less than $8 million.

I guess I just don't see it as a big of a deal as others. He's likely to be a bit overpaid this year, and will probably be gone next season as Nerd mentioned; either by not having a very good season or breaking out and pricing himself out of Green Bay. As others have mentioned, with Jennings gone there's a reasonable chance he could earn every penny of that $8 million, especially since it's a contract year. If he does have a great season, the money he's getting paid won't be any issue at all. He caught the Packers in a slightly tough spot, and they have to 'eat' $2-3 million for a season and hope he has a great year (which isn't unrealistic, imo).


Fair enough. Keller didn't perform admirably last year, but he has been a more reliable receiver than Finley in the years before that.

I think that, if you sign someone in free agency, there's more than enough time to get familiar with a system. Players change teams in FA all the time and just contnue producing the next year. If a guy can join the Patriots offense as a WR and completely grasp what Josh McDaniels wants to do in one off-season, I reckon a TE could get our offense figured out and produce.

Maybe you can't build up a chemistry between the QB and receiver that fast, but that's not something I've seen progressing that well between Finley and Rodgers, either.

As for the potential part... The man has been with our team since 2008. He can't get over his problems with drops, maturity and consistency. I was a huge fan of his when he joined us and, for a reasonable price, I'd still give him a chance, but at $8 million, I just don't like the investment.

Right now, I'd rather have a reliable option who doesn't have that much potential. A guy like Martellus Bennett would've been a nice, all-round TE, who's averaging $5 million a year. Not a difference maker, but a good, solid player. But maybe that's more of a personel preference than one you can blame Finley for.

That saves you "just" $3 million, but that is money you could've invested in a player like Adrian Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Antwan Barnes, Kenny Phillips, Leon Washington, Chris Canty etc.

Yes, that's easy to say in hindsight, but the combined contribution of a more afforable TE, who can't be that big of a drop-off from Finley, with one of those players would've helped us more than just Finley alone.

Of course, we still have some money free under our cap, so cutting Finley isn't something we have to do, but even if we just saved up that $3 million, I feel like rolling that over to next year or using it to restructure Matthews and front-load his contract some more would've helped us more than holding on to Jermike.

Lastly, I'll leave you with this. Blegh.

Most overvalued tight ends in 2012:

Quote:
2. Jermichael Finley, Green Bay Packers

2012 Cap Hit: $5.2m
2012 Performance Based Value: $1.0m
Value Differential: -$4.2m

Given that only two players at the position had more drops than Finley’s nine and with his 10.8 yards per catch the lowest of his career, it’s not surprising that he finished the regular season as our 47th-ranked tight end. For a player that offers little in terms of blocking, he has to do better as a receiver to avoid making this list next season, as continued unreliability will have Aaron Rodgers, and maybe the Packers this offseason, looking elsewhere.
play2win  
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:48:05 AM(UTC)
http://profootballtalk.n...-chemistry-with-rodgers/

http://www.profootballfo...ar-drop-rate-tight-ends/

http://m.bleacherreport....s-dropped-passes-problem

http://sports.yahoo.com/...ason-161614350--nfl.html

Finley's drop rate is increasing since the start of 2011. His TDs are seriously declining, with only 2 in 2012. Ranked #42 out of 62 NFL TEs in 2013...
http://www.foxsportswisc...kers.html?blockID=861209

I'm not seeing his bonus payment and continued employment by the Packers as having value. We should have not paid it and done something better with $8.25M.

Zero2Cool  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 5:53:53 AM(UTC)
Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.
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play2win  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 6:19:38 AM(UTC)
We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.
Zero2Cool  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 6:29:54 AM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
We need decoy stats!

We just gave him a $3,000,000 bonus for all of 2 TDs in 2012. He dropped more TD passes than he caught! Ach. I'm done talking about him. I hope like hell he has a great year with the Packers and that his season ends with he and the rest of his Packers teammates hoisting the Lombardi Trophy! I'll gladly eat that crow.

We could have added Dashon Goldson at S with that money. This is a classic example of Ted overvaluing his own players to a fault.


What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.
Rockmolder  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 6:46:11 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Jimmy Graham and Aaron Hernandez had more drops than Finley. And the graphic attached shows that after his injury was healed that he was playing through btw ... he improved quite a bit. Keep in mind, there are no stats to show how he stretched the field and opened up the underneath routes for Randall Cobb and other WR. That's probably why you don't give him proper due in that regard. You don't have a number to tie to it.


For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.
Zero2Cool  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:23:28 AM(UTC)
Rockmolder said: Go to Quoted Post
For this statement to make any difference from any other TE in the league, it'd mean he'd have to be double covered or at least have a safety slide over to him.

If that's the big selling point, draft a guy like Chris Gragg on day 3 and we've replaced Finley, already, for less than a million.

Let's not get any stats involved, then.

Did our Offense appear to run smoother when Finley was in? Did Finley show his athleticism by grabbing hard to catch balls out of the air? Did he appear to stretch the field moreso than Nelson, Jennings or Jones? Has he been reliable or trustworthy as a receiver, something I want even more out of my TE than my WR?

No, rarely, rarely, not at all...

I'm still not seeing where he's worth that $8,5 million.


First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.

Rockmolder  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 7:51:48 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
First, you have a heavy bias against Jermichael Finley over gloves, so your take is quite tainted.
Second, yes, $8.5 is too much for Jermichael Finley, as who said several times, oh, that was me.
Finally, what I am also saying is he's not a pile of garbage like some are insinuating and that he's a complete waste of money and Ted Thompson failed in this regard.



Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.
Zero2Cool  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 8:12:23 AM(UTC)
Rockmolder said: Go to Quoted Post
Not really. It does add to the view that he's immature and irresponsible to a certain degree, though.

Glad we agree about that, because that's all I'm saying, as well. Had we had him at $3-4 million, I'd be happy. Point I'm trying to make is that, with some simple moves, we could've had a player of the same caliber but at half the price. Not as athletic, but a lot more reliable and consistent.


I'd have been fine with the Packers going in with Andrew Quarless as the starter ... assuming he's 100% or will be soon.
play2win  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, March 26, 2013 8:32:51 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
What statistics do you have to support that Jermichael Finley dropped touchdown catches? can you provide game by game stats to support this claim?


Who's to say Goldson would be any more worth the money than Finley? There's a reason free agents are free agents. But I want the stats on the dropped TD passes. That interests me greatly.


No. I based those comments on what I saw last season. I know what I saw. I know he dropped more than two TDs in 2013. If you think differently, it is your prerogative.

This article and the charts indicate our offense is more efficient when Finley is not on the field: http://www.acmepackingco...finley-green-bay-packers

This shows his targets and drops per game:
http://www.fftoday.com/s...s/2912/Jermichael_Finley

And, this is Bob McGinn, a person who put plenty of work into evaluating Jermichael Finley, with comments from other pro scouts:
http://www.jsonline.com/...y-v081e07-183664521.html

Here, Zero2Cool, my bud... chew on THIS ONE!: [laughing]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/te

Amongst all TEs, Finley only ranks #15 in DYAR, and #18 in DVOA! Unbelievable. [laughing] [laughing] [laughing]
(I laugh because I have no clue what any of that means...)


The whole thing is a value issue, and I think you've already agreed we are on the short end on that one. My opinion is this bonus was money poorly spent, not to mention the year long commitment to him, with a $8.75M cap figure. In essence, we overpaid him greatly, where he would have been hard pressed to get anything close to that in the open market, with his numbers. So, I'm looking at this as akin to a very poor FA signing, by keeping the player on at that figure, rather than outright releasing him.

Again, now all we can do is hope for the best. I don't like what happened there though.
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