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Offline wpr  
#26 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 1:57:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
None of those guys are "the number 1 receiver" because all 3 of them are. Why is everyone stuck in this mindset that a team has to have a number 1 guy and then a bunch of supplimentary players? I don't see anything wrong with having 3-4 equally dangerous players that can hit a big play at any time. The fact of the matter is from top to bottom this team still has one of the most dangerous wr sets in the league.

What needs to improve is the blocking up front and the running game needs to be good enough that it can offer some support.


Add to the equation that most teams don't have 3 cb who can consistently cover all the of these wr. Therefore the Wr who has a poor cover guy on him defaults to a #1 wr and have the ability to separate from the defender at the los and will seemingly have a more explosive move. There route running and hands are already pretty good. Yes they all have had periods of dropping catchable balls.
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Offline doddpower  
#27 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:02:38 PM(UTC)
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If Ted Thompson has a wide receiver rated as the best player available at pick 26, he should absolutely (and likely will) draft him, regardless of how many snaps he may get this season. That's a silly way to look at things, as I have described in another thread. Besides, that could all change before the season even starts. The Packers receiving group of Nelson, Jones, Cobb, and maybe Finley sounds pretty good, but one injury leaves the group thin and not nearly as dangerous, especially without a running game. Additionally, who knows what's going to happen to Finley, but I'm sure that will be settled by the draft. Even if he stays this season, perhaps he leaves next, again leaving another hole in the receiving group. I like Boykin, but he'll be hard pressed to ever be more than a true #4 WR. A team can't simply address needs as they have them and consistently be successful. They have to plan and draft ahead.

I'm hoping the best player available is a defensive linemen or a pass rusher, but if it works out to be a wide receiver, than I totally understand the pick.
Offline RajiRoar  
#28 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:09:26 PM(UTC)
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I'd like to see Quinton Patton in the 2nd or 3rd.

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Offline wpr  
#29 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:30:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
If Ted Thompson has a wide receiver rated as the best player available at pick 26, he should absolutely (and likely will) draft him, regardless of how many snaps he may get this season. That's a silly way to look at things, as I have described in another thread. Besides, that could all change before the season even starts. The Packers receiving group of Nelson, Jones, Cobb, and maybe Finley sounds pretty good, but one injury leaves the group thin and not nearly as dangerous, especially without a running game. Additionally, who knows what's going to happen to Finley, but I'm sure that will be settled by the draft. Even if he stays this season, perhaps he leaves next, again leaving another hole in the receiving group. I like Boykin, but he'll be hard pressed to ever be more than a true #4 WR. A team can't simply address needs as they have them and consistently be successful. They have to plan and draft ahead.

I'm hoping the best player available is a defensive linemen or a pass rusher, but if it works out to be a wide receiver, than I totally understand the pick.



yep.
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Offline porky88  
#30 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 3:47:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
What team would you imagine our guys could join and slip into the nr. 1 receiver role? I don't think that any of the guys on our roster have the ability to carry a receiving group, to get bracketed and still produce, to be that one receiver you throw to out of desperation and still have a good chance of him coming up with it...

I agree with you that Cobb has made some amazing progression, but he doesn't look like that X or Z guy to me who'd I'd like to see as my leading receiver.

I think that Jones, Nelson and Cobb would all start for just about any team in the NFL, but they wouldn't be the vocal point of the offense. Not the main targets.

Jets (Santonio Holmes), Bills (Steve Johnson), Dolphins (Brian Hartline), Browns (Josh Gordon), Jaguars (Laurent Robinson), Titans (Kenny Britt), Raiders (Denarius Moore), Chargers (Malcom Floyd), Eagles (DeSean Jackson), Redskins (Pierre Garcon), Rams (Danny Amendola), & Seahawks (Sidney Rice).

Those are the definite teams off the top of my head. I believe there's another half a dozen worth debating. For example, I think Cobb and Nelson are better than Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith. The game is changing. You don't need an outside threat as your go-to guy. Teams are attacking the middle of the field with a slot-man. The Packers have done so the better part of the last six years with Greg Jennings. Take 2010 as an example. Green Bay won a Super Bowl that year with Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, and James Jones.

Jermichael Finley was hurt and Donald Driver was well on his way in decline. You're telling me that the drop off from Jennings to Cobb is that significant.

I don't agree with that. The only thing Jennings does significantly better than Cobb is route running, which he's among the best in the league at doing. Cobb is more explosive, though.

Two years ago, Jordy Nelson had an amazing season. Pro Football Outsiders actually rated it among the best of all-time. People seem to forget about it.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder Go to Quoted Post
Favre's stints with Walker and Sharpe always come to mind for me. Favre was always good with his bunch of decent wide receivers, but in the small portions of time that Sharpe and Walker were absolutely dominant, it changed everything. Those "dumb throw to nowhere" became catchable balls with those guys. The nr. 1 CB all of a sudden had something to worry about and defenses had to pull a safety to one side. It just changes the entire offense.

This is not the history I remember. Sterling Sharpe retired after the ‘94 season, which was Favre’s first really good year. Following that season, Favre won his three MVP awards with Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman as his go-to receivers. The Packers also had outstanding tight ends in Mark Chmura and Keith Jackson.

Javon Walker had one 1,000-yard season with the Packers. It came in ‘04, which was a typical Favre season under Sherman. He threw a lot of touchdowns, but also a lot of interceptions.

Regarding the draft, this draft is thin at wide receiver. I don't think there's one player that comes in and makes an immediate impact. I guess maybe Patterson, but any selection of a wide receiver is part of the long-term future of the Packers. You trade up to draft Patterson, and you're preparing for when Nelson and Jones depart when their contract is up. In other words, it's an economic argument, which to Ted Thompson’s credit, I think he saw coming when he drafted Randall Cobb two years ago. Just substitute Player A for Cobb and Nelson or Jones for Jennings. That’s where I think wide receiver enters the radar.
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Offline dfosterf  
#31 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:13:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Oh they go deep.. not arguing the depth of our routes.. but we don't have a guy that is a burner, someone that scares the defense with his speed. Someone that will force the back end of the defense to adjust if he is running a fly route.


I just picked a random point to let you know how much I enjoy and respect your contributions. If I gave you applause every time I agreed with you, people would talk, lol

You are the bomb, Shawn.

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Offline dfosterf  
#32 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:20:12 PM(UTC)
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Good stuff, Porky.

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Offline Rockmolder  
#33 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:37:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: porky88 Go to Quoted Post
Jets (Santonio Holmes), Bills (Steve Johnson), Dolphins (Brian Hartline), Browns (Josh Gordon), Jaguars (Laurent Robinson), Titans (Kenny Britt), Raiders (Denarius Moore), Chargers (Malcom Floyd), Eagles (DeSean Jackson), Redskins (Pierre Garcon), Rams (Danny Amendola), & Seahawks (Sidney Rice).

Those are the definite teams off the top of my head. I believe there's another half a dozen worth debating. For example, I think Cobb and Nelson are better than Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith. The game is changing. You don't need an outside threat as your go-to guy. Teams are attacking the middle of the field with a slot-man. The Packers have done so the better part of the last six years with Greg Jennings. Take 2010 as an example. Green Bay won a Super Bowl that year with Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, and James Jones.

Jermichael Finley was hurt and Donald Driver was well on his way in decline. You're telling me that the drop off from Jennings to Cobb is that significant.

I don't agree with that. The only thing Jennings does significantly better than Cobb is route running, which he's among the best in the league at doing. Cobb is more explosive, though.

Two years ago, Jordy Nelson had an amazing season. Pro Football Outsiders actually rated it among the best of all-time. People seem to forget about it.


I don't agree with every receiver on that list. Santonio Holmes doesn't belong there, DeSean Jackson/Jeremy Maclim I'm not sure about, Justin Blackmon was dangerous already and will only become better (rather than Robinson), guys like Rice and Britt have better skillsets, they're just injured a lot, so I guess I'll give you those...

That still leaves you with a whole lot of teams that have a better situation. A whole lot more than we're than.

And no, I'm not saying that the drop-off from Jennings to Cobb is that big, per say, but I do feel like Jennings could man that outside position better than Cobb can. Jennings did pull the nr. 1 corner most of the time if I recall correctly, though, often leaving Nelson on the nr. 2, where he racked up some pretty good stats. Yes, he held his own when Jennings went down, but that just didn't seem to be the case this year.

And I certainly don't see how James Jones is the answer to our problem at nr. 1 receiver or how he'll dominate nr. 2 guys.

porky88 wrote:
This is not the history I remember. Sterling Sharpe retired after the ‘94 season, which was Favre’s first really good year. Following that season, Favre won his three MVP awards with Robert Brooks and Antonio Freeman as his go-to receivers. The Packers also had outstanding tight ends in Mark Chmura and Keith Jackson.

Javon Walker had one 1,000-yard season with the Packers. It came in ‘04, which was a typical Favre season under Sherman. He threw a lot of touchdowns, but also a lot of interceptions.

Regarding the draft, this draft is thin at wide receiver. I don't think there's one player that comes in and makes an immediate impact. I guess maybe Patterson, but any selection of a wide receiver is part of the long-term future of the Packers. You trade up to draft Patterson, and you're preparing for when Nelson and Jones depart when their contract is up. In other words, it's an economic argument, which to Ted Thompson’s credit, I think he saw coming when he drafted Randall Cobb two years ago. Just substitute Player A for Cobb and Nelson or Jones for Jennings. That’s where I think wide receiver enters the radar.


Fair enough. Favre's play didn't explode and I didn't mean to state that it did (reading back, I did, though). The rest of what I said still stands, though. You get that one guy who pulls coverages his way and who just grabs what's thrown at him, even those desperation passes.

We even tried to create our own guy like that in Finley at the start of the 2011 season, throwing every second pass his way.

I'm not advocating a trade-up and I'm not saying that our draft pick will become an AJ Green-like instant impact player. I'm just saying that, would an Allen or a Patterson fall down to us, you pick him up directly. Gives us the chance to let Jones walk next year, as well, as he might just overvalue himself after this TD catch season.
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Offline Rockmolder  
#34 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 4:38:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dfosterf Go to Quoted Post
I like this kid Jarrett Boykin. He reminds me of JAMES JONES!, and everyone should know by now how I feel about that, Laugh as I prefer to remind everyone CONSTANTLY that I HAD HIM in the TEETH of you NAYSAYERS Razz I don't even think Boykin is slow like many say.

I can't believe Rock is getting off a book-end to CMIII to think WR. I'm not seeing it. We are still good at WR, imo.



I'd still like another OLB, but I can't imagine Ted being a guy who would invest yet another first rounder in one position after Matthews a couple of years ago and Perry just last year.

I'd love drafting like the Giants, but I don't think it's realistic to think Ted would do that. Although that's just a hunch that's impossible to back up.
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Offline cheeseheads123  
#35 Posted : Thursday, February 21, 2013 10:00:36 PM(UTC)
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An improved offensive line would do wonders for this receiving group
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Offline Pack93z  
#36 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2013 9:40:20 AM(UTC)
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That is an impressive stat.. Jones caught more TD's than the top 3 (arguably) receivers combined.

FoxSports wrote:
James Jones was a touchdown-scoring machine last season, leading the entire NFL with 14 touchdown receptions. His 784 receiving yards were nowhere near the top of the league, but elite wideouts Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson didn't even combine to match Jones' incredible touchdown total.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline PackerTraxx  
#37 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2013 12:15:30 PM(UTC)
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I'm hoping Charles Johnson is a diamond in the rough. I really like his measurables. I know as a 7th rounder it's a long shot, but maybe he can be the next DD. I've got my finger crossed!!!
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Offline beast  
#38 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2013 7:57:10 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
I'm hoping Charles Johnson is a diamond in the rough. I really like his measurables. I know as a 7th rounder it's a long shot, but maybe he can be the next DD. I've got my finger crossed!!!


I've had this odd feeling... with 7th round pick (#216 overall) WR Charles Johnson getting all this love from Packer fans every where... while 7th round pick (#224 overall) WR Kevin Dorsey is getting no attention...

The odd feeling I've had is that Dorsey will be the one sticking around longer... just simply based on the fact, it seems like often times when a late round pick is getting that much love from fans for every ever reason they don't last very long (because they dropped that far for a reason...)

It such seems like the late round picks with the most hype from the fans are always one of the first to go... such examples are...

2012: OT Andrew Datko

2011: DE/OLB Ricky Elmore

2009: OT Jamon Meredith

2007: WR David Clowney

2007: RB DeShawn Wynn (he did help, but he was gone sooner than his talent, but then again that's why he drafted to the 7th in the first place)

2006: WR Cory Rodgers


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Offline nerdmann  
#39 Posted : Wednesday, May 8, 2013 9:07:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I've had this odd feeling... with 7th round pick (#216 overall) WR Charles Johnson getting all this love from Packer fans every where... while 7th round pick (#224 overall) WR Kevin Dorsey is getting no attention...

The odd feeling I've had is that Dorsey will be the one sticking around longer... just simply based on the fact, it seems like often times when a late round pick is getting that much love from fans for every ever reason they don't last very long (because they dropped that far for a reason...)

It such seems like the late round picks with the most hype from the fans are always one of the first to go... such examples are...

2012: OT Andrew Datko

2011: DE/OLB Ricky Elmore

2009: OT Jamon Meredith

2007: WR David Clowney

2007: RB DeShawn Wynn (he did help, but he was gone sooner than his talent, but then again that's why he drafted to the 7th in the first place)

2006: WR Cory Rodgers




Charles Johnson could be the steal of a very very good draft.

He's got the skills to be BETTER than DD. I know that's heresy. I know he has to prove it on the field. But I LOVE that pick.
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Offline beast  
#40 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 7:23:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Charles Johnson could be the steal of a very very good draft.

He's got the skills to be BETTER than DD. I know that's heresy. I know he has to prove it on the field. But I LOVE that pick.


I agree with you... but I believe the same was also said for WR draft picks David Clowney and Cory Rodgers as well...

I'm was pointing out that it seems like the late but highly hyped draft picks are the ones that seem to bust first for the Packers over the past years. Doesn't mean Johnson can't change all of that.

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Offline Yerko  
#41 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 8:28:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I've had this odd feeling... with 7th round pick (#216 overall) WR Charles Johnson getting all this love from Packer fans every where... while 7th round pick (#224 overall) WR Kevin Dorsey is getting no attention...

The odd feeling I've had is that Dorsey will be the one sticking around longer... just simply based on the fact, it seems like often times when a late round pick is getting that much love from fans for every ever reason they don't last very long (because they dropped that far for a reason...)

It such seems like the late round picks with the most hype from the fans are always one of the first to go... such examples are...

2012: OT Andrew Datko

2011: DE/OLB Ricky Elmore

2009: OT Jamon Meredith

2007: WR David Clowney

2007: RB DeShawn Wynn (he did help, but he was gone sooner than his talent, but then again that's why he drafted to the 7th in the first place)

2006: WR Cory Rodgers




I think the love for Charles Johnson is because he is coming from a smaller school and who doesn't love a story like that?
In my Packers mock draft, I had *jokingly* put Charles Johnson there in the 7th just to match the story of another 7th round WR draft pick that had a lot of success in Green Bay. Aside from that, the kid has speed and good hands. I don't know much about Kevin Dorsey but I would like to see some contribution from both of them. They both have incredible speed (4.3 and 4.4).

If anything, both guys can add some depth and competition on special teams. I instantly thought of K/P return competition.

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Offline PackerTraxx  
#42 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 8:56:48 AM(UTC)
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I like both Dorsey and Johnson, it's that Johnson's measureables jump out at you. Of course, the odds are against them as it is with any late round draft choice. That's why they're late round draft choices. But there's always hope for another DD.
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Offline nerdmann  
#43 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:12:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
I like both Dorsey and Johnson, it's that Johnson's measureables jump out at you. Of course, the odds are against them as it is with any late round draft choice. That's why they're late round draft choices. But there's always hope for another DD.


That's where I'm at with him. Say what you want about Clowney (who iirc is still in the league) and all these other dudes. But they don't have "Jerry Rice" measurables like Johnson.

Dude has the solid character to make the most of his chances too. Classic Ted Thompson guy.
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Offline beast  
#44 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 2:35:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
That's where I'm at with him. Say what you want about Clowney (who iirc is still in the league) and all these other dudes. But they don't have "Jerry Rice" measurables like Johnson.

Dude has the solid character to make the most of his chances too. Classic Ted Thompson guy.



Interesting the Bills signed Clowney .... Clowney also lead the NFL in pre-season games yardages a couple of years with the Jets (giving the Jets hope they were going to have a passing game)...

Ummm what do you mean by ""Jerry Rice" measurables"? .... you mean his height and weight? lots of guys have been big and not done well...

Anyways I hope they're both successful for the Packers. But it just bothers me a tad when players get this much hype because they don't seem to live up to it... like Ricky Elmore and Datko have had over the last two years.

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Offline nerdmann  
#45 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 3:15:48 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
Interesting the Bills signed Clowney .... Clowney also lead the NFL in pre-season games yardages a couple of years with the Jets (giving the Jets hope they were going to have a passing game)...

Ummm what do you mean by ""Jerry Rice" measurables"? .... you mean his height and weight? lots of guys have been big and not done well...

Anyways I hope they're both successful for the Packers. But it just bothers me a tad when players get this much hype because they don't seem to live up to it... like Ricky Elmore and Datko have had over the last two years.



Height, weight, speed, quickness.
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Offline sschind  
#46 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 3:23:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
Interesting the Bills signed Clowney .... Clowney also lead the NFL in pre-season games yardages a couple of years with the Jets (giving the Jets hope they were going to have a passing game)...

Ummm what do you mean by ""Jerry Rice" measurables"? .... you mean his height and weight? lots of guys have been big and not done well...

Anyways I hope they're both successful for the Packers. But it just bothers me a tad when players get this much hype because they don't seem to live up to it... like Ricky Elmore and Datko have had over the last two years.



That's the one thing I don't like about the off season following the draft until the preseason games start. The media makes it seem like everyone from the star QB right down to the very last street free agent long snapper are going to be all pros. Pretty much everyone is a star during training camp.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline steveishere  
#47 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 3:58:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
Interesting the Bills signed Clowney .... Clowney also lead the NFL in pre-season games yardages a couple of years with the Jets (giving the Jets hope they were going to have a passing game)...

Ummm what do you mean by ""Jerry Rice" measurables"? .... you mean his height and weight? lots of guys have been big and not done well...

Anyways I hope they're both successful for the Packers. But it just bothers me a tad when players get this much hype because they don't seem to live up to it... like Ricky Elmore and Datko have had over the last two years.



Sam Shields got a lot of hype and he sure lived up to it. Not all of those guys are busts. A lot of those guys are still in the league at least even if it's on another team. Say what you want but for 7th round types any career longer than a couple years is pretty good.
Offline nerdmann  
#48 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 4:37:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Sam Shields got a lot of hype and he sure lived up to it. Not all of those guys are busts. A lot of those guys are still in the league at least even if it's on another team. Say what you want but for 7th round types any career longer than a couple years is pretty good.


Ted is the master of finding these guys, and our staff are masters at developing them. Happens EVERY year.

Shields, Walden, Moses, Barclay, DuJuan Harris, even back to Tramone Williams.
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Offline beast  
#49 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 5:24:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Height, weight, speed, quickness.


There where I'm not sure you're right comparing them to Rice. Didn't Rice run a rather slow 40 time? And these guys ran rather fast 40 times...


Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Sam Shields got a lot of hype and he sure lived up to it. Not all of those guys are busts. A lot of those guys are still in the league at least even if it's on another team. Say what you want but for 7th round types any career longer than a couple years is pretty good.


I believe I said late draft pick. Shields wasn't drafted.

And you're right sticking in the NFL on a 53 man roster is very good for a 7th round pick. But my point of it is they were off the Packers teams very quickly.
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Offline nerdmann  
#50 Posted : Thursday, May 9, 2013 7:03:33 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
There where I'm not sure you're right comparing them to Rice. Didn't Rice run a rather slow 40 time? And these guys ran rather fast 40 times...




I believe I said late draft pick. Shields wasn't drafted.

And you're right sticking in the NFL on a 53 man roster is very good for a 7th round pick. But my point of it is they were off the Packers teams very quickly.


Rice ran a 4.5 at the combine, iirc. Johnson ran a 4.3.
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