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Offline steveishere  
#26 Posted : Thursday, May 16, 2013 8:16:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
To tie my rant back in to Zero's title- I want a team that wins in the playoffs not one that merely shows up and then goes home a week or two later. I guess some of you are happy with it. I am ok with you liking a form of mediocrity.
I measure success by championships.


That's nice and all but every team but 2 goes home a week or two later every year. I guess the sooner you realize the team you like isn't going to be one of the 2 out of 32 teams that makes the big game every single year (no matter what team you like) the easier it will be for you. You are putting up unrealistic expectations. Obviously every fan want's their team to win the Superbowl every year, wanting that doesn't make you special but demanding that makes you irrational.
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DoddPower on 5/16/2013(UTC), greengold on 5/16/2013(UTC)
Offline DakotaT  
#27 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 2:41:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
see THAT is the point. Get rid of the more or less useless low round picks and spend them on quality higher round picks. You get so much more value with higher picks. You get what you pay for.


Uncle Ted gave us a championship with the multiple draft pick system and you question it? Drafting in the late 20's in every round every year and still being a top team annually comes from having a very skilled GM. Maybe we should all just kiss his ass a little more instead of questioning his methods and pouting about more championships.

We had a GM that always thought we were 1 or 2 players away and that didn't pan out too well.
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nerdmann on 5/17/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#28 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 4:38:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
That's nice and all but every team but 2 goes home a week or two later every year. I guess the sooner you realize the team you like isn't going to be one of the 2 out of 32 teams that makes the big game every single year (no matter what team you like) the easier it will be for you. You are putting up unrealistic expectations. Obviously every fan want's their team to win the Superbowl every year, wanting that doesn't make you special but demanding that makes you irrational.


If we played above our abilities and still lost in the NFCC, that would be cool.

But when we are the superior team and we shit ourselves, it disgusts me.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Online wpr  
#29 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 5:39:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post


And my half serious point about too many CMIIIs was that you bump up against the salary cap if you have too many superstars to get re-signed.



wouldn't THAT be a great problem to have? I would never worry about it. The answer is simple. Use them while you have them and then let a few or most walk when the time comes. No worries.

To everyone else- HA! You are getting WAY to worked up over this. Like Dakota mentioned we are only talking about a 1-2 maybe 3 player difference in the team and you are pummeling me for nothing.

I do not hate Uncle Teddy. I think he has done a heck of a job. however we have been discussing in general. Let's get specific. Who feels that it would have been better to have Darius Butler, Derek Cox and Brandon Tate on the Packers instead of Clay? Oops Clay AND Jamon Meredith. Certainly Butler, Cox and Tate have had decent careers. For the most part. Nothing spectacular. But they line up and play week end and week out. Moving up in the draft gives you a better chance at a Pro Bowl caliber player than moving down in the draft. Not a one of you can disagree with that. Just look at the wiki drafts for the past 10 years. More All Pro and Pro Bowl players are taken in the early rounds than the later ones.

Since Uncle Ted does a great job of stocking the team the need to pluck a couple of studs from time to time in lue of 10 more guys who are just passing through is required.

As for the line about measuring success based on championships- is that not Mike Mc Carthy's quote? or a paraphrased version of it?
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Offline Pack93z  
#30 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 6:47:14 AM(UTC)
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If we are going to "blame" the composition of the roster for our post season failure.. then we best remember it was those same type of players that netted us a ring in 2010.

We have talent up and down this roster.. talent is not the problem.

I still maintain.. I will continue to, point most of the blame of our post season failures on our imbalance in offensive play calling.. IE, failing to develop a running game to balance our offense and our team.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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SINCITYCHEEZE on 5/17/2013(UTC), nerdmann on 5/17/2013(UTC), greengold on 5/17/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#31 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 7:23:17 AM(UTC)
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We lost the past two years mostly as a result of losing two very important players who have yet (pending this year's offseason additions) to be replaced: Nick Collins and Cullen Jenkins.

Two of the top players at their positions on D in the NFL. Equally adept pass rush and run stopping ability on the line, and Pro Bowl Safety range and play. Had we not lost both of these players, I think we would have repeated and won back to back SBs 2010 and 2011.

Our potent offense failed to compensate for our losses on D, compounding the situation with some unsuccessful game plans that forced this tired, undermanned D onto the field time and time again. We were so close, yet undermanned at a couple of important positions made very, very clear in some horrific losses throughout these past two seasons.

Add to this the loss to injury of other KEY players, either highly regarded starters or players acquired to replace key losses, and it is amazing how well we actually fared:

Bulaga
Sherrod
Perry
Bishop
Woodson
Jennings
Worthy
Finley
Neal

Some or all of these players missed significant time due to injury, or had their play/impact adversely affected in trying to come off of injury. Now, we get some of these players returning, and others added at key positions. I'm hopeful we can stay healthy, and turn this around.

Winning Championships is the true mark of success. It is time we won some more, and I think we will.
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yooperfan on 5/20/2013(UTC)
Offline Porforis  
#32 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 7:47:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
2006 6 Johnny Jolly DT 2009
2006 7 Dave Tollefson DE 2012

2007 6 Korey Hall LB 2011
2007 6 Desmond Bishop LB 2012
2007 6 Mason Crosby K 2012

2007 7 DeShawn Wynn RB 2010
2007 7 Clark Harris TE 2012

2008 7 Matt Flynn QB 2012
2008 7 Brett Swain WR 2011

2009 6 Jarius Wynn DE 2012
2009 6 Brandon Underwood DB 2010
2009 7 Brad Jones LB 2012 0

2010 6 James Starks RB 2012
2010 7 C.J. Wilson DE 2012


2011 6 Caleb Schlauderaff OL 2012
2011 6 D.J. Smith LB 2012
2011 6 Ricky Elmore DL 2012
2011 7 Ryan Taylor TE 2012
2011 7 Lawrence Guy DT 2012

Very few of them stand out. For every Tauscher there are several Caleb Schlauderaff's.


Very different looking story if you don't include the ancient past. Let's look at the last 6 years (not including 2013 or 2012 since a single year in the leauge or zero years in the leauge isn't a great sample size).

How many teams do you see drafting 1-2 starting-quality players in the 6th and 7th round every year? Yes, in many cases we're trading away earlier-round picks for multiple late-round picks, but 2nd and 3rd rounders are hardly guaranteed talent.
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Online wpr  
#33 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:07:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Porforis Go to Quoted Post
Very different looking story if you don't include the ancient past. Let's look at the last 6 years (not including 2013 or 2012 since a single year in the leauge or zero years in the leauge isn't a great sample size).

How many teams do you see drafting 1-2 starting-quality players in the 6th and 7th round every year? Yes, in many cases we're trading away earlier-round picks for multiple late-round picks, but 2nd and 3rd rounders are hardly guaranteed talent.


You can't count Bishop, Smith and Jones. They all play the same position. They cut Smith because he can't cut it in their system. Jones was thrust into service due to injuries. Crosby is a kicker for pete sakes. most kickers are UDFA. There is no guarantee of Flynn starting and he did not start for GB so there was no benefit to GB expect as a backup. Wilson started but that was only because they had no other options. I think most people would not have their feels hurt if he were cut this year. There is not going to be any clamor for retiring his number or putting him in the the Packer Hall. (Yes I am being sarcastic and facetious.) That he started is actually a testimony to the need to selecting better quality players and letting the 6th round picks be reserves on the team.

Out of the 19 player only Jolly, Bishop and Starks were true starters and Starks is a question mark at best. 3 out of 19 is 16%. I am sure if you go back and look at the 2nd-4th round picks the number is much higher. Even using your number of 8 that is 42%. The odds of finding a starter in the other rounds is still a whole lot greater.

I have no problem with drafting in the lower rounds but the truth is these players tend to be 2nd and 3rd sting fill in players. Certainly the cream will rise to the top and a few players go on to have solid careers. If you want impact players that can change a game don't look for them in the bottom of the barrel. For the most part they are at the top. You get what you pay for. Teddy likes to bargain shop and he gets a bunch of players that are not ready for prime time players. You won't find Clay Matthews very often in the 7th round.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#34 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:12:38 AM(UTC)
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If the Packers traded their 1st rounder often to gain another 2nd and 3rd or 4th, I'd be okay with that type of deal. Packers recently (since Ted Thompson took over) seem to do really well between rounds 2 and 4.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline Pack93z  
#35 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:17:03 AM(UTC)
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Lets look at the NFL as a whole ... and really where players come from. Below.. they look at the "top 20" players from each draft.

After the first round.. I would say it is pretty balanced through the middle of each draft.. almost up to the 6th and 7th round.

So it really is just putting more bullets in the gun after the first round. For reference.. 50% of 2nd rounders are hits.. so if you only have a 50% chance of grabbing an impact player in the second round.. why not increase the odds like he did this year to slide back and add picks later that will in turn increase the impact of your second round pick?

Image source..

Second Round #'s Source..
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I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Offline Pack93z  
#36 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:20:51 AM(UTC)
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More fodder..


TheAtlantic wrote:
But the NFL (which continues its draft today) does seem *particularly* bad predicting future stars. A new football draft study from the Worcester Polytechnic Institute found there has historically been more value among second-round picks than first-rounders. "The analysis of the past 13 seasons shows that second-rounders provide 70 percent of the production of first-round picks but at just 40 percent of the salary," ESPN reported.

To add some anecdotal color, when you look at today's best football players, their draft positions are utterly random. Look at the best quarterbacks. Peyton Manning was a first overall pick, while Aaron Rodgers was a late first-rounder, Drew Brees was the 32nd pick, and Tom Brady was famously a 6th rounder. Or consider the best running backs. Adrian Peterson was the top-rated in his class, but Arian Foster ranked 24th, and breakout star Alfred Morris wasn't drafted until the 6th round.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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Online wpr  
#37 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:40:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Lets look at the NFL as a whole ... and really where players come from. Below.. they look at the "top 20" players from each draft.

After the first round.. I would say it is pretty balanced through the middle of each draft.. almost up to the 6th and 7th round.

So it really is just putting more bullets in the gun after the first round. For reference.. 50% of 2nd rounders are hits.. so if you only have a 50% chance of grabbing an impact player in the second round.. why not increase the odds like he did this year to slide back and add picks later that will in turn increase the impact of your second round pick?

Image source..

Second Round #'s Source..


your chart proves my point. The 6th and 7th rounds are almost devoid of starters. As you mention I don't mind trading back from a low first round pick to getting a couple of 2nd round picks. But to trade back and get a 2nd round pick and get 3 6/7 round picks is a waste.

I also don't have a problem with rounds 3-5 either. There are more misses than hits but it is still a lot better than 6/7 rounds.
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Offline Pack93z  
#38 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 8:49:24 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
your chart proves my point. The 6th and 7th rounds are almost devoid of starters. As you mention I don't mind trading back from a low first round pick to getting a couple of 2nd round picks. But to trade back and get a 2nd round pick and get 3 6/7 round picks is a waste.

I also don't have a problem with rounds 3-5 either. There are more misses than hits but it is still a lot better than 6/7 rounds.


But Ted didn't slide out of the 2nd round.. he just slide down. Grabbing extra picks.. so he got the best value he could from those picks.. he still picked a second round talent and grabbed extra ammo, some of which was used to move up in later rounds.

To me.. this draft this year.. had a ton of value in the middle of it.. there are some drafts that just don't look that way. Hell.. there are some drafts, 2005 comes to mind, in which the entire draft looks weak.

Personally, again, I don't think it is a talent issue up and down this roster.. I believe our philosophies got out of whack at times and it has had more impact than the question of where we acquired talent.

Yearly we see our roster cuts get snapped up elsewhere.. sometimes very quickly. Our scouting department yearly shines in my opinion.. our coaching, or to be more specific, individual coaching aspects is our core weakness which has prevented us from hoisting more than one Lombardi over Rodgers era.

Personally, less talking about becoming a more physical team and more doing MM. Start with busting our offensive line coach in the chops.. wait, maybe the whole line shift was a kick in the ass to Campen. Then MM... look in the freaking mirror and grow a set of running balls. lol.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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play2win on 5/17/2013(UTC), yooperfan on 5/20/2013(UTC)
Online wpr  
#39 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 9:03:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
But Ted didn't slide out of the 2nd round.. he just slide down. Grabbing extra picks.. so he got the best value he could from those picks.. he still picked a second round talent and grabbed extra ammo, some of which was used to move up in later rounds.

To me.. this draft this year.. had a ton of value in the middle of it.. there are some drafts that just don't look that way. Hell.. there are some drafts, 2005 comes to mind, in which the entire draft looks weak.

Personally, again, I don't think it is a talent issue up and down this roster.. I believe our philosophies got out of whack at times and it has had more impact than the question of where we acquired talent.

Yearly we see our roster cuts get snapped up elsewhere.. sometimes very quickly. Our scouting department yearly shines in my opinion.. our coaching, or to be more specific, individual coaching aspects is our core weakness which has prevented us from hoisting more than one Lombardi over Rodgers era.

Personally, less talking about becoming a more physical team and more doing MM. Start with busting our offensive line coach in the chops.. wait, maybe the whole line shift was a kick in the ass to Campen. Then MM... look in the freaking mirror and grow a set of running balls. lol.


I was not speaking specifically about this year's draft. I was talking about Ted's overall draft persona is to move down. He usually ends up with a ton of 6/7 round picks. I am not saying he does a bad job. I am not saying they don't have a good scout system. Heck if you think about it there were "experts" who questioned whether or not CM3 would be a mid round draft pick and why move up to get him. They knew. They could do the same thing other times as well in other years. Either they choose not to or the other teams are asking too much to make it work. We don't know. One more thing. Before someone says I am saying this- They can't move up every single year. Sometimes they can move up and sometimes they can move down. Ted tends to move down a whole lot more than he moves up. He accumulates players who can't make this team and who are picked up elsewhere. Instead of getting 50 players who can't make the team I am saying get 3 who can make a huge difference. (EXAGGERATION PEOPLE)
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Offline warhawk  
#40 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 10:50:13 AM(UTC)
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Unfortunately the math doesn't work when it comes to putting a good team together. No team can afford really good 1st thru 3rd round players to fill out a 53 man roster.
Nor can a GM pull off drafting that many low round picks anyhow. Let's say Ted finds a way to draft 4 players in the first three rounds over 5 years.

That's 20 players and no way they are all going to turn out to be quality core type starters. How could Ted ditch the last few rounds of the draft, load up on the first three or four rounds, pay the best players we have to keep them around, AND, stay under the cap?

I would rather draft and develop young players with potential than bring in 3r or 4th year guys that haven't shown enough potential to stick around with the team they were on. Fifty three players have to come from somewhere.







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Online wpr  
#41 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 11:02:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: warhawk Go to Quoted Post
Unfortunately the math doesn't work when it comes to putting a good team together. No team can afford really good 1st thru 3rd round players to fill out a 53 man roster.
Nor can a GM pull off drafting that many low round picks anyhow. Let's say Ted finds a way to draft 4 players in the first three rounds over 5 years.

That's 20 players and no way they are all going to turn out to be quality core type starters. How could Ted ditch the last few rounds of the draft, load up on the first three or four rounds, pay the best players we have to keep them around, AND, stay under the cap?

I would rather draft and develop young players with potential than bring in 3r or 4th year guys that haven't shown enough potential to stick around with the team they were on. Fifty three players have to come from somewhere.




I love how people take what I say and run it as far out on a tangent as possible just to try and prove "their" point.

1. I said you can't trade up and load up with the top picks every single year.
2. I said there has to be some years where they do trade down for more lower picks.
3. I said every team needs players who are acquired in the 6/7 rounds (and also UDFAs) if nothing else than to add depth to a roster.
4. I did say there are players in the lower rounds who are worthy of becoming starters. There are simply fewer and farther between than in the higher rounds.
5. I also said who cares about what the cap is going to be some day 3 or 4 or 5 years from now. Build your winner. Win championships and let 5 years from now take care of itself. If the team wins 3 SB in the next 4 years nearly every single fan would understand it if they had to let some quality players go and rebuild due to cap space issues.

edit-
Also this is all hyperbole. None of this matters one iota. Uncle Ted is going to do what Uncle Ted wants. he isn't going to apologize nor explain himself to anyone.

I also said that I am also only looking at 2 to 3 maybe 4 roster spots in all of this discussion. Yet so many of you feel the need to teach me GM101 when you have never sat in a class on the subject yourself. But I am having fun watching all these posts come up.

I do believe that is why Kevin chose the subject title he did then sat back. He is not feeling well and he is having fun too. You're welcome Zero.
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Offline warhawk  
#42 Posted : Friday, May 17, 2013 4:51:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
I love how people take what I say and run it as far out on a tangent as possible just to try and prove "their" point.

1. I said you can't trade up and load up with the top picks every single year.
2. I said there has to be some years where they do trade down for more lower picks.
3. I said every team needs players who are acquired in the 6/7 rounds (and also UDFAs) if nothing else than to add depth to a roster.
4. I did say there are players in the lower rounds who are worthy of becoming starters. There are simply fewer and farther between than in the higher rounds.
5. I also said who cares about what the cap is going to be some day 3 or 4 or 5 years from now. Build your winner. Win championships and let 5 years from now take care of itself. If the team wins 3 SB in the next 4 years nearly every single fan would understand it if they had to let some quality players go and rebuild due to cap space issues.

edit-
Also this is all hyperbole. None of this matters one iota. Uncle Ted is going to do what Uncle Ted wants. he isn't going to apologize nor explain himself to anyone.

I also said that I am also only looking at 2 to 3 maybe 4 roster spots in all of this discussion. Yet so many of you feel the need to teach me GM101 when you have never sat in a class on the subject yourself. But I am having fun watching all these posts come up.

I do believe that is why Kevin chose the subject title he did then sat back. He is not feeling well and he is having fun too. You're welcome Zero.

Well, you have #1 thru #4 that Ted has done on a regular basis and probably on an exceptional basis when it comes to UDFA's and then you skip to #5 that is a far cry from what got you there.

There's a few holes here by the way. We won the SB in 2010 and after two years had to deal with Arod and Mathews. So if it was as simple as three or four positions and riding it for 5 years it would be a viable plan. Just doesn't fit into what is really going on.

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Offline steveishere  
#43 Posted : Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:40:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
To tie my rant back in to Zero's title- I want a team that wins in the playoffs not one that merely shows up and then goes home a week or two later. I guess some of you are happy with it. I am ok with you liking a form of mediocrity.
I measure success by championships.


In the last 3 years combined only 8 teams have ended their season closer to a championship than GB. That's not any form of mediocrity.
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Online wpr  
#44 Posted : Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:46:52 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
In the last 3 years combined only 8 teams have ended their season closer to a championship than GB. That's not any form of mediocrity.


You can look backwards all you want. I am looking forward. however, looking back GB could have done better.
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Online dfosterf  
#45 Posted : Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:08:29 PM(UTC)
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If you look at the big picture as regards prospects coming out of college...

The differential between a 1st round pick and a seventh round pick is profoundly small.

We as fans get caught up in all the hype during the off-season, but one hell of a lot of this whole deal is quite the crap-shoot, manglement-wise.

(You get to call managers manglers when you get all old and retired, lol)

Topic at hand- We fail due to our trench-play. Period. Ted will have to keep pounding at this subject in the draft if he insists on avoiding free agency and/or not being that good at it, coupled with being LATE in addressing it, especially in light of his draft vs. free agency strategy. At times, it seems rather disorganized/ willy-nilly to me.

I still trust him quite a bit, plus I have no choice... I was born in Wisconsin just enough pre-Lombardi, so I'm stuck with all you whack-fucks. Laughing

Message modified by user Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:27:05 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .00001924537805515393 % of the Green Bay Packers.



Offline DakotaT  
#46 Posted : Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:23:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dfosterf Go to Quoted Post
If you look at the big picture as regards prospects coming out of college...

The differential between a 1st round pick and a seventh round pick is profoundly small.

We as fans get caught up in all the hype during the off-season, but one hell of a lot of this whole deal is quite the crap-shoot, manglement-wise.

(You get to call managers manglers when you get all old, senile, and retired, lol)

Topic at hand- We fail due to our trench-play. Period.


I fixed that for you! And yes, we lose football games at the line of scrimmage. It really is that simple.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
dfosterf on 5/19/2013(UTC)
Online dfosterf  
#47 Posted : Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:31:14 PM(UTC)
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..took me a millisecond but I caught it, so I'm that old, am I? lol




Razz worried- a little Woot

Message modified by user Sunday, May 19, 2013 7:47:24 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .00001924537805515393 % of the Green Bay Packers.



Offline Zero2Cool  
#48 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2013 10:23:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dfosterf Go to Quoted Post
..took me a millisecond but I caught it, so I'm that old, am I? lol


Razz worried- a little Woot


Cheer up! Packers are currently the 3rd seed!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/s...nferenceRank/order/false
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline dhazer  
#49 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2013 11:13:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Cheer up! Packers are currently the 3rd seed!

http://espn.go.com/nfl/s...nferenceRank/order/false


And the Bears just lost Cutler for atleast 4 weeks with a torn vagina Laughing
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Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be :)
Offline Porforis  
#50 Posted : Monday, October 21, 2013 12:15:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: dhazer Go to Quoted Post
And the Bears just lost Cutler for atleast 4 weeks with a torn vagina Laughing


Not sure that's good news for the Packers. That's two less turnovers we'll get for two divisional games this year.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
rabidgopher04 on 10/21/2013(UTC)
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