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play2win  
#21 Posted : Sunday, June 9, 2013 10:44:57 AM(UTC)
Well Dexter_Sinister, that sounds good, but let's put this into perspective. We didn't lose Benson until week 5 against the Colts. Our 3rd loss in 5 games.

""I feel like we underachieved, to be frank," said coach Mike McCarthy. "And it starts with me."

Some of the offensive linemen wondered what McCarthy was up to by throwing on his first seven calls of the second half. It got him an interception and a punt, giving the moribund Colts hope and probably creating doubt among his players.

Later, it was a 41-yard gain - yes, on a good, old-fashioned running play - by Alex Green that provided the Packers a brief 27-22 lead. Then a monumental cave-in by the defense enabled Andrew Luck to drive 80 yards for the winning touchdown.

"We're up 21-3 at halftime and we sort of changed our game plan in the second half and we couldn't do (expletive)," an obviously angry guard T.J. Lang said. "They knew all we were doing was throwing the ball so they were coming with everything they had."

The Colts, 2-14 a year ago, overwhelmed Rodgers, his blockers and McCarthy's scheme in the second half. The five sacks, their most in a game since Week 4 of 2009, were the result of Rodgers' indecision on two and Marshall Newhouse, Tom Crabtree and Jeff Saturday just getting beat on the three others.

Cedric Benson's departure (mid-foot sprain) on the fourth play of the second quarter hurt. So did the losses of B.J. Raji (ankle) a series later and Jermichael Finley (shoulder) early in the third quarter."http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/173026821.html

We lost our 1st game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. Cedric Benson was the ONLY RB to receive ANY carries, a grand total of 9!!! Holy crap!

We lost our 3rd game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. 19 measly carries between Benson, Cobb and Kuhn for the entire game. Oh, let's do look at the 1st half! Rodgers was sacked EIGHT TIMES!!! McCarthy ran Benson 2 times in the first half and Cobb once, the only running plays we called. THREE rushes!!! Compared to 23 pass plays by Rodgers.

That's where stats lie, 17 carries in the game by Benson, 15 of which came in the 2nd half after Rodgers had been freaking killed... what the hell was McCarthy thinking? How could he let that happen, with a healthy Benson to go to? Unbelievable.

I'm hopeful this changes with the addition of Lacy and Franklin this season, and that we never again have to revisit this massive failure to run the football.
mi_keys  
#22 Posted : Sunday, June 9, 2013 11:17:52 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
i ran a correlation between winning % and TOP.


There isn't any. The graph looked like a shotgun pattern.


It is a complete myth. It only sounds logical. In reality, it has no effect.


Time of possession is not directly tied to points. If you hold the ball for 7 minutes and throw a pick 6, then hold the ball for 7 minutes and punt, to have it run back for a TD, you are up 14-0 on the clock and down 14-0 on the score board.

If you have long drawn out drives of 10 or more plays, there are more chances to screw up and give the ball away before you score.

If you have a quick strike offense, your opponent still has to score to keep up with you. If you score fast but every time you touch the ball, they have to do more than burn clock. They have to actually put up points.

It doesn't matter how long it takes you to score as long as you do.


Not surprised in the least. Another factor not taken into consideration on the time of possession stat is the time you are on offense while the clock is stopped. You constantly hear about your offense winning the time of possession battle giving your defense time to rest. Well, it's not like the defense can't rest during those 35 seconds the clock is stopped. Yet, that will never show up in the time of possession statistics.

Dexter_Sinister  
#23 Posted : Sunday, June 9, 2013 12:43:39 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Well Dexter_Sinister, that sounds good, but let's put this into perspective. We didn't lose Benson until week 5 against the Colts. Our 3rd loss in 5 games.

""I feel like we underachieved, to be frank," said coach Mike McCarthy. "And it starts with me."

Some of the offensive linemen wondered what McCarthy was up to by throwing on his first seven calls of the second half. It got him an interception and a punt, giving the moribund Colts hope and probably creating doubt among his players.

Later, it was a 41-yard gain - yes, on a good, old-fashioned running play - by Alex Green that provided the Packers a brief 27-22 lead. Then a monumental cave-in by the defense enabled Andrew Luck to drive 80 yards for the winning touchdown.

"We're up 21-3 at halftime and we sort of changed our game plan in the second half and we couldn't do (expletive)," an obviously angry guard T.J. Lang said. "They knew all we were doing was throwing the ball so they were coming with everything they had."

The Colts, 2-14 a year ago, overwhelmed Rodgers, his blockers and McCarthy's scheme in the second half. The five sacks, their most in a game since Week 4 of 2009, were the result of Rodgers' indecision on two and Marshall Newhouse, Tom Crabtree and Jeff Saturday just getting beat on the three others.

Cedric Benson's departure (mid-foot sprain) on the fourth play of the second quarter hurt. So did the losses of B.J. Raji (ankle) a series later and Jermichael Finley (shoulder) early in the third quarter."http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/173026821.html

We lost our 1st game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. Cedric Benson was the ONLY RB to receive ANY carries, a grand total of 9!!! Holy crap!

We lost our 3rd game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. 19 measly carries between Benson, Cobb and Kuhn for the entire game. Oh, let's do look at the 1st half! Rodgers was sacked EIGHT TIMES!!! McCarthy ran Benson 2 times in the first half and Cobb once, the only running plays we called. THREE rushes!!! Compared to 23 pass plays by Rodgers.

That's where stats lie, 17 carries in the game by Benson, 15 of which came in the 2nd half after Rodgers had been freaking killed... what the hell was McCarthy thinking? How could he let that happen, with a healthy Benson to go to? Unbelievable.

I'm hopeful this changes with the addition of Lacy and Franklin this season, and that we never again have to revisit this massive failure to run the football.


The Colts were a playoff team. 2-14 is is a misleading comment.

The 49ers (NFC Champs) were fairly good at stopping the run. Benson got all the carries because he was the only one we had left. Green wasn't ready, Saine was out, Starks was on PUP.

Seattle is also a fairly accomplished running D.

Benson was a dog. He has been a dog all his career. I said it when we got him and he proved me right. He has never been a productive runner.

With the addition of Harris, we became a top 5 team in attempts per game. They did start the year not running enough. But they ended it running a lot. Because that is what teams were giving us.

It amazes me that people still say that Mike McCarthy doesn't call enough running plays. The majority of plays are options in which Rodgers decides to run or throw based on what the D gives him.

steveishere  
#24 Posted : Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:20:54 PM(UTC)
MM didn't have any problem with running the ball when he had a reliable halfway decent RB in Ryan Grant for a few years. He didn't have any problem running the ball during the short stints that Starks and Dujuan Harris were healthy and productive. If you have Aaron Rodgers and the Packers WR group and Brandon Jackson, 30 year old Cedric Benson, John Kuhn, or an unproven inexperienced Alex Green coming off a knee blow out your best bet is probably going to be to lean heavy on the passing game.

Mike has called an efficient HIGHLY productive offense for 3 years with nothing at all to rely on as far as a running back and some of you have no appreciation at all for it. Some of you sound like some spoiled ass brats. You've got more than most of the rest of the entire NFL fanbase yet keep crying because everything isn't perfect Crying
play2win  
#25 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 6:02:24 AM(UTC)
You cannot win in this league rushing only 9 attempts for an entire game (vs. SF), or only 3 attempts in a half (vs. SEA).

Those comments after the IND game were from our own unnamed OL!
steveishere  
#26 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 6:20:57 AM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
You cannot win in this league rushing only 9 attempts for an entire game (vs. SF), or only 3 attempts in a half (vs. SEA).

Those comments after the IND game were from our own unnamed OL!


You can win a Superbowl with 11 rushing attempts for an entire game I think. When you are only getting 2 yards a run you aren't going to win a game by running 20 times either.
play2win  
#27 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 9:48:55 AM(UTC)
steveishere said: Go to Quoted Post
You can win a Superbowl with 11 rushing attempts for an entire game I think. When you are only getting 2 yards a run you aren't going to win a game by running 20 times either.


Not sure what you are getting at. Yes, we won that SB with 11 carries by our RBs, mostly on Aaron's arm. Since that time, defenses have had us under the microscope and have played to stop that once vaunted passing attack. They've had more than two years of study on it, and we've all seen the results.

Add to that, we did win many games by rushing 20+ times for a couple of yards and a pile of dirt. Those rushes took the heat off of Rodgers and opened up our passing game, which is exactly my point.

Apparently, our own offensive line players felt differently than you about our first 5 games of last season. Funny, after the mismanagement of our running game became such an issue after that week 5 debacle in IND, we go down to HOU week 6 and pile in 29 rushes by our RBs and come away with a win, against a fierce HOU pass rush.

Regardless, we stopped running the ball for whatever reasons in 3 of our first 5 games last season and came away with losses in each of those 3 contests. We improved greatly from that point on by committing more to the run, even with subpar play by Jeff Saturday, and low ypc averages.

With the addition of Lacy and Franklin, and a retooling of our OL along with a renewed emphasis on the run, I see that scenario changing for the better in 2013, and hopefully, we get some of our backs stringing 100 yd games together. That will dramatically change our effectiveness on offense. Add to that what I anticipate will be an improved defense, and we should have a pretty successful season this year. While it is early, it looks like we're back in it as legit contenders for another Lombardi Trophy, and I hope we take it.

Keeping explosive players like Kaepernick off the field with some ball control by this Packers offense will go a long way towards our success.
steveishere  
#28 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 10:40:29 AM(UTC)
We've seen the results of what? The last 2 years we've still had one of the best offenses in the league despite not having any reliable or efficient running game.

Over half the runs against Houston came in the 4th quarter alone when the game was basically already over. That game was won off the back of the passing game.

We weren't going to beat the 49ers by pounding the running back for 2 yards a pop. What the team needs is not simply more runs it needs more efficient runs. There is a balance somewhere between running and passing yes but that balance is significantly skewed when you cannot run the ball efficiently. At some point passing the ball more is still better for the team than running for 0-2 yards. We've had nothing to rely on for 3 years as far as running backs. Hopefully this year is different and if it is I guarantee McCarthy will use it more (as he has in the past).
nerdmann  
#29 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 11:52:57 AM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Well Dexter_Sinister, that sounds good, but let's put this into perspective. We didn't lose Benson until week 5 against the Colts. Our 3rd loss in 5 games.

""I feel like we underachieved, to be frank," said coach Mike McCarthy. "And it starts with me."

Some of the offensive linemen wondered what McCarthy was up to by throwing on his first seven calls of the second half. It got him an interception and a punt, giving the moribund Colts hope and probably creating doubt among his players.

Later, it was a 41-yard gain - yes, on a good, old-fashioned running play - by Alex Green that provided the Packers a brief 27-22 lead. Then a monumental cave-in by the defense enabled Andrew Luck to drive 80 yards for the winning touchdown.

"We're up 21-3 at halftime and we sort of changed our game plan in the second half and we couldn't do (expletive)," an obviously angry guard T.J. Lang said. "They knew all we were doing was throwing the ball so they were coming with everything they had."

The Colts, 2-14 a year ago, overwhelmed Rodgers, his blockers and McCarthy's scheme in the second half. The five sacks, their most in a game since Week 4 of 2009, were the result of Rodgers' indecision on two and Marshall Newhouse, Tom Crabtree and Jeff Saturday just getting beat on the three others.

Cedric Benson's departure (mid-foot sprain) on the fourth play of the second quarter hurt. So did the losses of B.J. Raji (ankle) a series later and Jermichael Finley (shoulder) early in the third quarter."http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/173026821.html

We lost our 1st game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. Cedric Benson was the ONLY RB to receive ANY carries, a grand total of 9!!! Holy crap!

We lost our 3rd game of the season FAILING in the rushing dept. 19 measly carries between Benson, Cobb and Kuhn for the entire game. Oh, let's do look at the 1st half! Rodgers was sacked EIGHT TIMES!!! McCarthy ran Benson 2 times in the first half and Cobb once, the only running plays we called. THREE rushes!!! Compared to 23 pass plays by Rodgers.

That's where stats lie, 17 carries in the game by Benson, 15 of which came in the 2nd half after Rodgers had been freaking killed... what the hell was McCarthy thinking? How could he let that happen, with a healthy Benson to go to? Unbelievable.

I'm hopeful this changes with the addition of Lacy and Franklin this season, and that we never again have to revisit this massive failure to run the football.


Let's look at the history of Mike's teams.

These teams always struggle early in the season. Even in the Superbowl year, they had to have that "come to Jesus" meeting. In '11 we went 15-1, but then again, they were airing it out that entire time, it's just that for the most part it was working. It doesn't always work that well.

It seems to me that Mike will be more prone to abandoning the run and stat whoring early in the season. That Seattle game should never even have been close.

And let's talk about that game. IF, we had put Seattle away instead of letting them tee of and not even pretend to guard the run, we win that game. AND, we get a playoff bye. We get a week's rest before we face the Niners. That's a HUGE difference.

But it just seems to me that this team struggles early in the season, every year. And it usually revolves around neglecting the run game. Mike will try to start playing for real in the playoffs, but in a situation like last year, the damage has already been done.

DoddPower  
#30 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 12:44:32 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Let's look at the history of Mike's teams.

These teams always struggle early in the season. Even in the Superbowl year, they had to have that "come to Jesus" meeting. In '11 we went 15-1, but then again, they were airing it out that entire time, it's just that for the most part it was working. It doesn't always work that well.

It seems to me that Mike will be more prone to abandoning the run and stat whoring early in the season. That Seattle game should never even have been close.

And let's talk about that game. IF, we had put Seattle away instead of letting them tee of and not even pretend to guard the run, we win that game. AND, we get a playoff bye. We get a week's rest before we face the Niners. That's a HUGE difference.

But it just seems to me that this team struggles early in the season, every year. And it usually revolves around neglecting the run game. Mike will try to start playing for real in the playoffs, but in a situation like last year, the damage has already been done.



Kind of how the bye-week made such a difference the year before against the Giants? I don't see any way in which the Packers would have beaten the 49'ers last year. They were simply the better team, whether the Packers had another week of rest or not.

Regardless, I, and most others, would love to see more production out of the run game. Mike McCarthy gets away from it during critical moments at times, but I can sort of understand given the talent the the position he has been working with and Aaron Rodgers as QB. Now that he will hopefully have a decent backfield, I look forward to and expect him to be a more discipline play-caller.
nerdmann  
#31 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 2:44:01 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Kind of how the bye-week made such a difference the year before against the Giants? I don't see any way in which the Packers would have beaten the 49'ers last year. They were simply the better team, whether the Packers had another week of rest or not.

Regardless, I, and most others, would love to see more production out of the run game. Mike McCarthy gets away from it during critical moments at times, but I can sort of understand given the talent the the position he has been working with and Aaron Rodgers as QB. Now that he will hopefully have a decent backfield, I look forward to and expect him to be a more discipline play-caller.


We lost to them in Week 1, because we started Jarrett Bush at CB.

Plus we abandoned the run. Late in the year DuJuan was on a roll too.

I do not fear the Niners. I do believe they are for real. But so are we, at least talent level wise.
macbob  
#32 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 7:34:05 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
The assertion that they don't like to run the ball is a myth.

The only thing they needed to have a better running game was any healthy backs. Which they didn't really have.



Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Seattle is also a fairly accomplished running D.


Oh, please. 1st half of the Seattle game we ran 30 offensive plays, 27 of them were passes. 1 running play in the first quarter (no gain), 2 running plays in the 2nd quarter (24 yds).

Our explosive, quick strike offense was shut out in the first half as we were losing 7-0 at half time.

McCarthy abandoned the run going into that game, not because we weren't having success running the ball but because it was his game plan. Fortunately, he adjusted at half time and in the second half, we ran the ball 18 times and outscored Seattle 12-0 (I refuse to count that last score). Not that we won because of the running per se, but because running the ball kept the Seattle DL from being able to pin their ears back and just go after AR, which made our passing game more effective.

He did the same thing in the second half of the SF playoff game last year. We ran 4 times in the second half (on the first two series), never ran it again the entire rest of the game. And it's not like we were well down and needed to just pass-pass-pass to catch up--SF had just scored to take the lead when we abandoned the run. What made it more frustrating was we had run the ball effectively in the first & second half, including DuJuan Harris' 18 yard TD run in the first half.

We could run the ball, we just decided to abandon the run. That's not a myth.

nerdmann  
#33 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 9:04:34 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
Oh, please. 1st half of the Seattle game we ran 30 offensive plays, 27 of them were passes. 1 running play in the first quarter (no gain), 2 running plays in the 2nd quarter (24 yds).

Our explosive, quick strike offense was shut out in the first half as we were losing 7-0 at half time.

McCarthy abandoned the run going into that game, not because we weren't having success running the ball but because it was his game plan. Fortunately, he adjusted at half time and in the second half, we ran the ball 18 times and outscored Seattle 12-0 (I refuse to count that last score). Not that we won because of the running per se, but because running the ball kept the Seattle DL from being able to pin their ears back and just go after AR, which made our passing game more effective.

He did the same thing in the second half of the SF playoff game last year. We ran 4 times in the second half (on the first two series), never ran it again the entire rest of the game. And it's not like we were well down and needed to just pass-pass-pass to catch up--SF had just scored to take the lead when we abandoned the run. What made it more frustrating was we had run the ball effectively in the first & second half, including DuJuan Harris' 18 yard TD run in the first half.

We could run the ball, we just decided to abandon the run. That's not a myth.



But in fairness, they racked up some pretty decent stats.
Dexter_Sinister  
#34 Posted : Monday, June 10, 2013 9:38:15 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
Oh, please. 1st half of the Seattle game we ran 30 offensive plays, 27 of them were passes. 1 running play in the first quarter (no gain), 2 running plays in the 2nd quarter (24 yds).

Our explosive, quick strike offense was shut out in the first half as we were losing 7-0 at half time.

McCarthy abandoned the run going into that game, not because we weren't having success running the ball but because it was his game plan. Fortunately, he adjusted at half time and in the second half, we ran the ball 18 times and outscored Seattle 12-0 (I refuse to count that last score). Not that we won because of the running per se, but because running the ball kept the Seattle DL from being able to pin their ears back and just go after AR, which made our passing game more effective.

He did the same thing in the second half of the SF playoff game last year. We ran 4 times in the second half (on the first two series), never ran it again the entire rest of the game. And it's not like we were well down and needed to just pass-pass-pass to catch up--SF had just scored to take the lead when we abandoned the run. What made it more frustrating was we had run the ball effectively in the first & second half, including DuJuan Harris' 18 yard TD run in the first half.

We could run the ball, we just decided to abandon the run. That's not a myth.



Who abandoned the run? Who decided to not run the ball?
play2win  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2013 7:13:45 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Who abandoned the run? Who decided to not run the ball?


Ultimately, I would say that is on McCarthy. He runs everything on that O. It all goes through him. And if it is not what he wants, it is his charge to change it.

I know you are asking if it might be Rodgers checking to pass in run/pass option plays. McCarthy must have a handle on that stuff.
DoddPower  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:40:55 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
We lost to them in Week 1, because we started Jarrett Bush at CB.

Plus we abandoned the run. Late in the year DuJuan was on a roll too.

I do not fear the Niners. I do believe they are for real. But so are we, at least talent level wise.


Oh I think the Packers can beat the 49'ers, especially when somewhat healthy. But not in the playoffs last year. At that point, they were the better team in most every way. Fortunately for the Packers, every season is a new story.

macbob  
#37 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:53:59 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Who abandoned the run? Who decided to not run the ball?


McCarthy in the first half of the Seattle game. He scripts the first 15 or so plays. That's 100% on him.

And my bet is primarily McCarthy in the SF game, too, though Aaron Rodgers undoubtedly audibled out of some runs, too. The formations we came out in were almost exclusively shotgun (both 1st half of Seattle game and 2nd half of SF game). The 4 runs in the second half of the SF game were all draws out of the shotgun.

Dexter_Sinister  
#38 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:30:10 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
McCarthy in the first half of the Seattle game. He scripts the first 15 or so plays. That's 100% on him.

And my bet is primarily McCarthy in the SF game, too, though Aaron Rodgers undoubtedly audibled out of some runs, too. The formations we came out in were almost exclusively shotgun (both 1st half of Seattle game and 2nd half of SF game). The 4 runs in the second half of the SF game were all draws out of the shotgun.



Do you know what the play calls actually were?

The majority of McCartheys plays are RUN/PASS options. The plays direction is in Rodgers hands a great deal.

He makes the read and decides to run or throw based on how he feels he can best exploit the D.

Our first drive against the 49ers we had 3 runs for 6 yards. The next 3 rushes produced 6 more.

Do you really think we could have beat them sticking with that running game?
Dexter_Sinister  
#39 Posted : Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:38:11 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Ultimately, I would say that is on McCarthy. He runs everything on that O. It all goes through him. And if it is not what he wants, it is his charge to change it.

I know you are asking if it might be Rodgers checking to pass in run/pass option plays. McCarthy must have a handle on that stuff.


McCarthey leaves that to the QB.

Specially Rodgers.

In post game PCs, McCarthey has said that he would have preferred to have run more, but he left it in Rodgers hands. That was a couple years ago.

I doubt he has suddenly started trusting Rodgers less and micro managing him more.

play2win  
#40 Posted : Wednesday, June 12, 2013 7:16:21 AM(UTC)
This is all such horse hockey. Just run the damn ball...

Finally, we have the RBs to take our running game to levels we may not have seen in GB since Taylor & Hornung. If your QB is checking out to much in order to pass, and getting himself in trouble, the HC can pull him aside, or get in his ear and adjust accordingly. As a matter of fact, McCarthy has an obligation as HC to do so. Ball control will keep Kaepernick off the filed. It is that simple. Fundamental football.
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23-Mar / Announcements / Zero2Cool

23-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

23-Mar / Fantasy Sports Talk / wpr

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