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DoddPower  
#61 Posted : Monday, June 17, 2013 10:44:41 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Benson in first half of the SF game.

Not counting Rodgers' yards.

Which is kind of the point.

They didn't run it because they couldn't. When they could, later in the year with Harris, they did.

If you "just run it" when you can't be productive, it isn't going to help.


Yeah, one half of one game doesn't prove anything to me though, especially the first game of the season. The running game takes effort over the long term to be successful. As I previously said, even with Benson, Harris, etc., there's little excuse for the Packers not to have a respectable running game given the fact that opposing defenses sell out to stop the passing game. That's the way I feel, anyway. I'm not even convinced that Harris is truly that talented. I just think the offensive line started to click a little better, McCarthy called a better game, and all of that snowballed into a better running game. I'm not taking anything away from Harris, but I think the improvement in the running game at the end of last season had as much to do with all the external factors around Harris as Harris himself. To Harris' credit though, he took what was there for him, plus some. But I keep going back to the fact that even decent offensive line play and play calling should net a respectable run game for the Packers, almost regardless of who is running the ball. And I need more than a few games late in the season to convince me of anything. Can't make decisions of relatively small sample sizes.
Dexter_Sinister  
#62 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:36:52 AM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, one half of one game doesn't prove anything to me though, especially the first game of the season. The running game takes effort over the long term to be successful. As I previously said, even with Benson, Harris, etc., there's little excuse for the Packers not to have a respectable running game given the fact that opposing defenses sell out to stop the passing game. That's the way I feel, anyway. I'm not even convinced that Harris is truly that talented. I just think the offensive line started to click a little better, McCarthy called a better game, and all of that snowballed into a better running game. I'm not taking anything away from Harris, but I think the improvement in the running game at the end of last season had as much to do with all the external factors around Harris as Harris himself. To Harris' credit though, he took what was there for him, plus some. But I keep going back to the fact that even decent offensive line play and play calling should net a respectable run game for the Packers, almost regardless of who is running the ball. And I need more than a few games late in the season to convince me of anything. Can't make decisions of relatively small sample sizes.


Yet you are willing to say McCarthey abandons the run using the playoff game against the 49ers when we didn't run for 2 drives as your example.

Which is a much smaller sample size.

My point isn't how talented Harris is. It is how bad Benson was and all the injured guys who couldn't play or were hampered by injury, like Green.

Benson sucked and we couldn't run very well with him. Green was hobbled. Which is all we had to run with for most of the season. Starks on PUP, Saine gone, and eventually even Benson gone.

They didn't decide not to run. It wasn't a choice. They couldn't run.

I would say that if they had any decent running backs all year, they would have had 1800-1900 yards rushing and a 4.2-4.3 ypc.
macbob  
#63 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:31:00 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Personally, I thought they had a great game on O against a really tough D. Putting up 31 on the 49ers when they averaged giving up 17 a game.


The O didn't score 31 points. The first 7 came off of a Sam Shields pick 6.

We scored 3 pts in the second half until a prevent D TD with 57 secs left in the game, while down 45-24.

macbob  
#64 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:35:31 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
They didn't decide not to run. It wasn't a choice. They couldn't run.


Again, untrue for the first half of the Seattle game, and the second half of the 49ers playoff game.

3 running plays out of 30 is abandoning the run before finding out we can't run, with 0 pts.

We quit trying to run in the playoff game even though we'd had success running against SF, and scored all of 3 pts in the second half prior to a last minute mop-up TD.
Dexter_Sinister  
#65 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:24:05 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
The O didn't score 31 points. The first 7 came off of a Sam Shields pick 6.

We scored 3 pts in the second half until a prevent D TD with 57 secs left in the game, while down 45-24.



And the prevent drive shouldn't be counted in the "choosing not to run" argument. Which is the point of the conversation.

The 49ers 17 points allowed per game average also includes prevent points. Kind of a moot point.

They still scored a full TD more than the SF D has allowed per game.

For the year, the Packers averaged about a TD per game more than more than the average team.

Seems kind of nitpicky to pick on the running game when the offense was no worse than their average.

When the D gave up 45.



Dexter_Sinister  
#66 Posted : Tuesday, June 18, 2013 9:54:33 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
Again, untrue for the first half of the Seattle game, and the second half of the 49ers playoff game.

3 running plays out of 30 is abandoning the run before finding out we can't run, with 0 pts.

We quit trying to run in the playoff game even though we'd had success running against SF, and scored all of 3 pts in the second half prior to a last minute mop-up TD.


In the Seattle game, the 8 sacks and a couple penalties in the first half putting then in long downs kind of forced them to pass on a few drives. Out of the 5 they had in the first half.

They also looked like they were trying to supplement the running game with short passes to Benson and the TEs. (like a WCO).

We didn't run for 2 series in the playoff game playing from behind. The "entire half" is an exaggeration. The last drive doesn't count.

My point being that basing the argument that McCarthey doesn't want to run on a small handful of drives where you don't even know the play call is not a credible argument to me. You don't know what the call was and you don't know what the D alignment was. You can't say they made a mistake because all you really know is how many times they ran.


play2win  
#67 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 6:24:23 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
And the prevent drive shouldn't be counted in the "choosing not to run" argument. Which is the point of the conversation.

The 49ers 17 points allowed per game average also includes prevent points. Kind of a moot point.

They still scored a full TD more than the SF D has allowed per game.

For the year, the Packers averaged about a TD per game more than more than the average team.

Seems kind of nitpicky to pick on the running game when the offense was no worse than their average.

When the D gave up 45.





I do think your point on the responsibility of our D to stop Kaepernick and the like is well taken. Keeping him and players like him (RG lll, Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, etc - guys who can tuck & run at a moment's notice) off the field as much as possible through effective ball control by our offense is key, it is just one key point.

What we have lacked on D is solid line play, and fast, instinctive play from 3 out of 4 of our LB positions. That landscape is changing quickly.

The talent shift from last season to this upcoming season is dramatically better with Datone and Boyd on the line, and the return on Perry and Manning along with additions of Palmer, Barrington and Mulumba. All of these players seem to be wrecking crews as tacklers, with great feet and instincts.

Let's add Johnny Jolly, and what I anticipate to be a better S year 2 in McMillian. Kind of weird, but I think Jolly will make this team and will be effective. He always had good feet and could make tackles. 3 years off without NFL punishment on his body, and a real hunger to succeed may make him a real surprise. He's certainly a man amongst boys, with experience. His presence will make Raji better, giving him our first decent rotation since Howard Green.

McMillian is the wild card. He has seen all of this up and close as a rookie, and he ought to have much of the play in front of him slow down a bit more year 2. He should be greatly improved, as will Burnett.

We have question marks that have to be answered on the field, but I like the changes we've made to improve our D to stop guys like Kaepernick.
DoddPower  
#68 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:35:55 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Yet you are willing to say McCarthey abandons the run using the playoff game against the 49ers when we didn't run for 2 drives as your example.

Which is a much smaller sample size.

My point isn't how talented Harris is. It is how bad Benson was and all the injured guys who couldn't play or were hampered by injury, like Green.

Benson sucked and we couldn't run very well with him. Green was hobbled. Which is all we had to run with for most of the season. Starks on PUP, Saine gone, and eventually even Benson gone.

They didn't decide not to run. It wasn't a choice. They couldn't run.

I would say that if they had any decent running backs all year, they would have had 1800-1900 yards rushing and a 4.2-4.3 ypc.


lol, I'm not basing any opinion off the one playoff game at all, but thanks for assuming. Sure, that one is most prominent because it means the most and was the last game they played, but I have noticed many times where McCarthy and/or Rodgers choose to pass rather than run in key situations that I didn't agree with throughout the past 3+ seasons, really. Again, that's my opinion, but I don't think I'm alone. Continually choosing to pass in key situations, even with an elite QB and good to great wide receivers, when the defense is absolutely expecting it, seems a little stubborn to me. I'll keep saying it, there's no reason this offense shouldn't always have a respectable running game given how talented they are at passing the ball. That applies almost regardless of who's running the ball (within reason of course); whether it be Benson, Harris, Grant, etc. It ultimately comes down to the offensive line and play calling. I'm not expecting an elite running game by any means, and would hope they continue to be a pass first team. But the product could have and should have been better over the past few seasons. You can attempt to explain it away all you want, but that's how I see it. I need to see it for an entire season at least, and in games when it matters the most to have any respect for the Packers running game, just like opposing defenses they will face, as well. So often, opposing defense are essentially begging the Packers to run more. They improved for a few games at the end of the season, but that's just not enough for me to think the problem is solved. I'm no advocate for a rushing first team. I just like taking advantage of what the defense is giving. The Packers need to do a better job of consistently doing this. I like the confidence, but it makes winning certain games much more difficult.

I like Lacy, Franklin, and Harris. But ultimately, it's going to come down to the offensive line play. I'm not so sure flipping the offensive line around is going to make much difference in the running game, but I certainly hope so. They have to find a way to force opposing defenses to adjust, and it's going to take a lot more than a few games with a decent yards-per-carry average. I think it's obvious to most defenses that the Packers only want to run juuuust enough to pass. So give them some yards on the ground, just limit the passing game and the opposing teams chances are winning are pretty good. I'm sure most defensive coordinators don't believe the Packers have the patient to consistently run the ball to beat them, especially when they need it the most.
play2win  
#69 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:04:11 AM(UTC)
The patience to run the ball consistently.

Man, that is what I am looking for this season. Running successfully is a mindset, established by the HC/OC. Wear teams the F out. That's what I am after. Do this, and Rodgers will be able to complete anything he wants in the passing game.
DoddPower  
#70 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:11:35 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
The patience to run the ball consistently.

Man, that is what I am looking for this season. Running successfully is a mindset, established by the HC/OC. Wear teams the F out. That's what I am after. Do this, and Rodgers will be able to complete anything he wants in the passing game.


I think James Campen is invincible or something. I just don't get it. How many years of average at best--and often horrible--offensive line play must the Packers endure before they try another coach? I would think it would be difficult to get an offensive line coach that was MUCH worse, and they could likely get one that was better. Hmpf.

Campy
nerdmann  
#71 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:35:53 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
I think James Campen is invincible or something. I just don't get it. How many years of average at best--and often horrible--offensive line play must the Packers endure before they try another coach? I would think it would be difficult to get an offensive line coach that was MUCH worse, and they could likely get one that was better. Hmpf.

Campy


Breaking a rookie's ankle on a fumble drill should have been the final straw.
DoddPower  
#72 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:15:47 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Breaking a rookie's ankle on a fumble drill should have been the final straw.


The final straw should have been pulled some time ago, imo.

Dexter_Sinister  
#73 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:43:06 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
The patience to run the ball consistently.

Man, that is what I am looking for this season. Running successfully is a mindset, established by the HC/OC. Wear teams the F out. That's what I am after. Do this, and Rodgers will be able to complete anything he wants in the passing game.


Cart before the horse.

Running the ball consistently without the ability to run effectively is going to put them in 3rd and long. It is going to come up short when you need to rely on it. 3rd & short, goal line and protecting a 4th quarter lead.

What I am looking for is the ability to run the ball effectively.
Dexter_Sinister  
#74 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 2:47:42 PM(UTC)
Dodd, they were right exactly in the middle of the league in rushing attempts.

Juuuust enough to pass, or juuuust a normal amount.
macbob  
#75 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:02:19 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
In the Seattle game, the 8 sacks and a couple penalties in the first half putting then in long downs kind of forced them to pass on a few drives. Out of the 5 they had in the first half.

They also looked like they were trying to supplement the running game with short passes to Benson and the TEs. (like a WCO).

We didn't run for 2 series in the playoff game playing from behind. The "entire half" is an exaggeration. The last drive doesn't count.

My point being that basing the argument that McCarthey doesn't want to run on a small handful of drives where you don't even know the play call is not a credible argument to me. You don't know what the call was and you don't know what the D alignment was. You can't say they made a mistake because all you really know is how many times they ran.




We ran 1 running play in the first quarter of the Seattle game. If that is not the definition of abandoning the run, I don't know what is.

For the SF game, your argument that we can't know whether the play call was a run or a pass to me isn't credible. If Aaron Rodgers audibled out of running plays in the second half then Mike McCarthy made it easy for him by coming out almost exclusively in shotgun formations.

There was a dramatic shift in the first half and the 2nd half in the formations we used. First half we ran 22 plays, 12 out of the shotgun and 10 from under center. In our first TD drive in the first half alone, Harris carried the ball twice from under center, gaining 5 yards and 18 yards, with the 2nd run resulting in the TD.

Second half, we came out in the shotgun on every single play in the 3rd quarter (17), including all 11 plays before we fell behind. If Aaron Rodgers audibled out of running plays on any of these plays he was audibling out of a draw play out of the shotgun. 4th quarter 16 out of 20 plays were out of the shotgun, all were passes, but by then we were well behind.

To summarize:
1st half: 12 - 10 plays out of shotgun / under center
2nd half: 33 - 4 plays out of shotgun / under center

So, which is more credible--MM called a bunch of draw plays out of the shotgun and Aaron Rodgers audibled out of them, or Mike McCarthy called pass plays out of the shotgun in the first place?
nerdmann  
#76 Posted : Wednesday, June 19, 2013 10:01:09 PM(UTC)
Are there still people who deny Mike and Aaron abandon the run?
play2win  
#77 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:20:37 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Cart before the horse.

Running the ball consistently without the ability to run effectively is going to put them in 3rd and long. It is going to come up short when you need to rely on it. 3rd & short, goal line and protecting a 4th quarter lead.

What I am looking for is the ability to run the ball effectively.


Cart before the horse? BS. The Packers have had the talent IMO. It simply had not been used correctly.

If your HC is OK with pass:run ratios of 8:1, your OL will never be able to wear out an opponent to effectively run block. Run blocking is all about precision and power, knocking your opponent backwards off his mark. Good run blocking is simply the result of going to this well again and again. That is what makes good running teams.

"Effective" isn't just "oh, good, this is working. Now lets use it." I don't buy any of this stuff about us not being able to run last season. Too often, we simply chose not to, especially during our first 5 games, taking us to a 2-3 record.

Lets put it this way: our own OL complained publicly after our loss to IND. Were those complaints about their position coach, Campen? Their supposedly shitty RBs? No, they were about the play calling that chose pass over run, again and again and again, resulting in a really fucking stupid loss. Should have never happened. Same with the SEA game.

Mike McCarthy simply allowed himself to get away from fundamental football. Really simple. This isn't rocket science.

Odd too, that after the public outcry for more running plays, we ran more, not particularly "effectively", and won more.

I do think we are both wanting the same things dexter, and I think we will see it realized this season.
DarkaneRules  
#78 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:15:20 AM(UTC)
I am more in the line with the camp of people that say with teams like this that your best defense is offense. The gameplan is a risk if it doesn't work, but I believe the best plan is to shorten the game with long clock killing drives. The more time teams like the 49ers are on the field with that QB, the more they will hurt you. Once Kap gets into rhythm, I don't believe you can stop him. To me he is one of the most exciting players in the NFL.
nerdmann  
#79 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2013 9:31:41 AM(UTC)
Suddenly everyone's on my side!

Shit's starting to warm my cockles.
Dexter_Sinister  
#80 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2013 5:56:30 PM(UTC)
play2win said: Go to Quoted Post
Cart before the horse? BS. The Packers have had the talent IMO. It simply had not been used correctly.

If your HC is OK with pass:run ratios of 8:1, your OL will never be able to wear out an opponent to effectively run block. Run blocking is all about precision and power, knocking your opponent backwards off his mark. Good run blocking is simply the result of going to this well again and again. That is what makes good running teams.

"Effective" isn't just "oh, good, this is working. Now lets use it." I don't buy any of this stuff about us not being able to run last season. Too often, we simply chose not to, especially during our first 5 games, taking us to a 2-3 record.

Lets put it this way: our own OL complained publicly after our loss to IND. Were those complaints about their position coach, Campen? Their supposedly shitty RBs? No, they were about the play calling that chose pass over run, again and again and again, resulting in a really fucking stupid loss. Should have never happened. Same with the SEA game.

Mike McCarthy simply allowed himself to get away from fundamental football. Really simple. This isn't rocket science.

Odd too, that after the public outcry for more running plays, we ran more, not particularly "effectively", and won more.

I do think we are both wanting the same things dexter, and I think we will see it realized this season.


What was the pass run ratio last year?

Coincidentally, Benson also sucked as a runner and always has. He was all they had in the first 5 games.

So who was the RB that wasn't "Supposedly shitty"? Who had a good YPC average in the first 5 games. Green playing on a bad leg, Saine on IR or Starks on PUP?

Because if they were not really shitty and it was the lack of attempts, they should have had a decent YPC and not many carries.

In the Colts game, the Packers had their 3rd highest rushing total of the year.

The D giving up 30 is much more to blame than the lack of a run game.

Dropping picks was one of the issues I would identify as the biggest reason we lost. Not the run game.
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