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British  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:23:46 AM(UTC)
http://packersnews.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6070

This suggests that the problem isn't in where we're drafting offensive lineman.
Greg C.  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:22:04 AM(UTC)
Good point. I'm glad somebody looked up that info. Thompson has not neglected the O-line in the draft, as some have claimed.

However, I disagree with the author's conclusion that Ted Thompson can't be blamed for the O-line problems. Draft position is one thing. The quality of the players is another. And that's in doubt right now.
PackFanWithTwins  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:33:55 PM(UTC)
It is hard to watch the Oline, because we were spoiled for a number of years. But them lines were not just built overnight.

Wahle was a 2nd round pick as a Tackle that didn't become a consistent starter until his 4th year and at Guard. Rivera was a 6th round pick That took a year to mature. Clifton 2nd and Tauscher 6th were both Rookies that got thrown into the fire and Flannagan was a 3rd round pick that didn't become the starter until his 4th year.

There is no magic formula for getting a line to play, some of the best players we had, didn't fit with those around them. When the pieces finally fit, it was a sight to be seen. But even in 2000, neither Clifton or Tauscher were day 1 starters. They got in because of injury and they were the final piece to one of the best lines I have seen play for the Packers.
Nonstopdrivel  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 1:54:57 PM(UTC)
Everyone needs to read that thread. There are some dynamite posts there. Here is one of the most enlightening:

" said: Go to Quoted Post

Yes I know it takes time to do this. I have done a little research on this, so to speak. Two years ago, on a forum far far away, I would argue with posters who thought that our o-line totally sucked and that Thompson had ample time to put together a great line. Although there main contention was for Thompson to just sign some experienced FA's and all our problems are solved. Never mind Thompson went this route in 2005 and it didn't work.

They thought that the line from 2000 to 2004 was the greatest thing since sliced cheese and that they were put together and gelled right a way. I would continually point out that Rivera and Flanagan were 5 yr vets in the 2000 season, Wahle was entering his 3rd season and was pretty terrible his first two years. Of course Clifton and Tauscher were rookies that year but they got a ton of work. In 2000 Green rushed for 1,175. In 2001 he rushed for 1,387; in 2002 he had 1,240. In these 3 years there was virtually nobody with rushing yds. behind Green. One year the next highest was 283, one year the next was 175. So things were not as hunky dory as everyone says it was in those days.

That line did finally his the jackpot in the 2003 season. Finally in their 4th full year together did they put it together and had a monster year rushing the ball. It took 4 years to become a pretty dominant line, from the rushing perspective.

To compare with the crappy lines Thompson has put together Green rushed for 1,059 in 2006, Grant tore it up in 2007 and had 1,203 last year.

BTW, the year after Green's super 2003 rushing season he had 1,163 in 2004 and najeh had 359 in 2004. That great line, rush wise, dominated only one year. They could pass block pretty well but so did the 2007 and 2008 line.
Pack93z  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:13:10 PM(UTC)
I hate to say this, but I don't think that it is crucial to draft guys in the first round and have them develop into quality offensive lineman.

Let me rattle some names off from the last decade or so...

Frank Winters
Adam Timmerman
Marco Rivera
Mark Tauscher
Mike Flannigan

There are some high quality lineman in that group.. and none were drafted highly by the Packers.

In comparison, I think this is a group where players can be molded more so than any other group on the football field.. it takes special coaches to mold them though as a functioning unit.

The basics are vital but so is the communication amongst them.. something I see missing on today's squad.. developed lineman.

Boy I miss the days of Beightol... that guy could flat out develop a line..
zombieslayer  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:18:35 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
I hate to say this, but I don't think that it is crucial to draft guys in the first round and have them develop into quality offensive lineman.

Let me rattle some names off from the last decade or so...

Frank Winters
Adam Timmerman
Marco Rivera
Mark Tauscher
Mike Flannigan

There are some high quality lineman in that group.. and none were drafted highly by the Packers.

In comparison, I think this is a group where players can be molded more so than any other group on the football field.. it takes special coaches to mold them though as a functioning unit.

The basics are vital but so is the communication amongst them.. something I see missing on today's squad.. developed lineman.

Boy I miss the days of Beightol... that guy could flat out develop a line..


So, the question becomes who is to blame for our bad OL? Campen? MM? Or TT? I'm guessing you'd say Campen.
Pack93z  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:23:30 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
I hate to say this, but I don't think that it is crucial to draft guys in the first round and have them develop into quality offensive lineman.

Let me rattle some names off from the last decade or so...

Frank Winters
Adam Timmerman
Marco Rivera
Mark Tauscher
Mike Flannigan

There are some high quality lineman in that group.. and none were drafted highly by the Packers.

In comparison, I think this is a group where players can be molded more so than any other group on the football field.. it takes special coaches to mold them though as a functioning unit.

The basics are vital but so is the communication amongst them.. something I see missing on today's squad.. developed lineman.

Boy I miss the days of Beightol... that guy could flat out develop a line..


So, the question becomes who is to blame for our bad OL? Campen? Mike McCarthy? Or Ted Thompson? I'm guessing you'd say Campen.


This has been a consistent theme since Philben and Campen took the reigns and continued to the pairing of Campen and Fontento.. we look around the roster and see development in almost every other unit on the team.. that alone speaks volumes to me.

That and the fact that we all the lineman we have ran through here since Ted has come to town.. we can't find a solid starting 5?

Something is amiss.. we see that the players have the ability for stretches of time.. lacking consistency to get it done on a week to week basis.

Yes.. I am banging the drum for a change at the units coaching.. something we have been commenting on since 06 and 07.. 06 we had three rookies starting.. I can sort of expect that.
Nonstopdrivel  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:25:41 PM(UTC)
Who would be your leading three candidates to fill the position?
dfosterf  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:35:12 PM(UTC)
I blame Ted Thompson the LEAST in all of this. This is based entirely on what I have gathered from what has been made public, which of course is a very small percentage of the whole truth.

Ted is not some autocrat drafting willy-nilly with some exclusive myopic version of his vision for this team. He went out and got the kind of linemen he was told to go out and get. The coaches run the offensive line scheme, the coaches decide what kind of "body-type" they want. Ted is responsible in the sense that the "buck stops" with him, but if it is to be looked at fairly, he did what he was asked to do---quick, athletic- "tweener type" o-linemen---ZBS-type o-linemen, when you read the scouting reports on them.

This is on Mike McCarthy in the sense that he has always taken ownership---And I believe him, in his emphasis on fixing (God I even hate typing this) pad level, foot position, straddle technique--whatever his catch-phrase excuse of the day/week/month might be.

Is it Campen? I think so, but I also think he got a bag of shit to work with. That is on whomever has decided that the Green Bap Packers do not need hat-on-hat simple out-physical your opponent linemen. I think that is on MM... I could be wrong.
Pack93z  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 2:35:32 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
Who would be your leading three candidates to fill the position?


For the way that we build a roster and the theories that Ted has placed on the line in past moves.. I think I would start looking at strong offensive line programs in the college ranks.

I would be looking at schools that run only the pro style offense or even to the spread type attacks in the big time competition conferences where they are facing NFL type defensive talent.. face it Mike McCarthy is a pass first coach, so I would be looking for coaches that can handle developing pass blockers.

Why look to the college ranks, because they yearly deal with turning over the group and can adjust accordingly.. in college if you have an NFL ready lineman in his junior year he is coming out.. and that means you have developed him in two years..

Typical contract here coming out gives you two to three years max to have him developed to get value out of his rookie contract and so you can properly access his value in his next contract. Personally I think it can be done much quicker if the core group is strong.

But we can't afford these three years projects that still should inconsistencies any given week.
millertime  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:26:22 PM(UTC)
I don't know if coaching sucks or if we are just drafting the wrong guys.

Have any of our linemen caught on elsewhere and succeeded? It should be intersting to watch Meredith and Moll. If they succeed elsewhere, it must be coaching. If they don't, it might be drafting.
Wade  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 6:56:29 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
I blame Ted Thompson the LEAST in all of this. This is based entirely on what I have gathered from what has been made public, which of course is a very small percentage of the whole truth.

Ted is not some autocrat drafting willy-nilly with some exclusive myopic version of his vision for this team. He went out and got the kind of linemen he was told to go out and get. The coaches run the offensive line scheme, the coaches decide what kind of "body-type" they want. Ted is responsible in the sense that the "buck stops" with him, but if it is to be looked at fairly, he did what he was asked to do---quick, athletic- "tweener type" o-linemen---ZBS-type o-linemen, when you read the scouting reports on them.

This is on Mike McCarthy in the sense that he has always taken ownership---And I believe him, in his emphasis on fixing (God I even hate typing this) pad level, foot position, straddle technique--whatever his catch-phrase excuse of the day/week/month might be.

Is it Campen? I think so, but I also think he got a bag of shit to work with. That is on whomever has decided that the Green Bap Packers do not need hat-on-hat simple out-physical your opponent linemen. I think that is on Mike McCarthy... I could be wrong.


I blame the personnel acquisition department. So Ted gets part of it on the "buck stops here" rationale that he is in charge of said department. But I think the problem is that the entire office (from college scouts to MacKenzie) just doesn't have what it takes in assessing OL talent.

Does that mean I think Thompson, or his subordinates, should be fired? No. Because they have skills at other things -- like finding LBs, say, or a starting quarterback or WRs. But ISTM, for whatever reason, their track record on OL shows them substandard. So I don't think the solution is firing someone. I think the solution comes in hiring someone to do the things they can't do. A guru scout. Sort of the scouting equivalent of bringing in Dom Capers to fix the defense.
nerdmann  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:35:36 PM(UTC)
Dfo makes a great point. Mike McCarthy wants to run the Zone Blocking Scheme. This requires Ted Thompson to get "athletic" linemen.
"Smaller, quicker" linemen=suckage.
gijoe82  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:47:36 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
Who would be your leading three candidates to fill the position?


Jag is out there. wasnt it his line and his creation in green bay, the zb scheme.
gijoe82  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 8:54:36 PM(UTC)
Gents I think its a bit early to be calling for someones head. It takes a long time to develop an Olineman. How many times did colledge lose the starting position? How many times has he had to win back his job?
I can remember talk about spitiz not playing well. Unfortunately there is not a lot of time for patience in a 16 game season, but as stated above it takes time!
TwinkieGorilla  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:00:01 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
Gents I think its a bit early to be calling for someones head.


that's exactly how i felt LAST year. much more of what we just saw on sunday and i'll feel a whole lot better with a head collection.
Wade  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2009 9:01:07 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
Who would be your leading three candidates to fill the position?


1. dfosterf. He'd kick ass.
2. You. Like foster, you realized that the Packers had a OL problem well before the Packer brain trust did.
3. vikesrule. If we get this far down the list, at least we know VR has a sense of humor and won't talk in manager-speak. And sometimes I think these OL should be wearing the purple underwear he'd require of them.
djcubez  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:17:35 AM(UTC)
Nice post, I'll admit I'm wrong as I was one of the people who picked on Thompson's strategy of drafting O-Lineman late. To be honest though, I don't think I'm entirely wrong.

I'm happy with our interior of Spitz, Sitton and Colledge. They're young and do their job well. However the tackles are the most important positions in the passing game because they protect the blind sides of the quarterback. Ted Thompson had indications the last few years that both Clifton and Tauscher were exiting their prime yet never selected or signed a player that projected to be a bookend LT. We have a right-handed QB so LT is the most important. Instead we decided to rely on the now oft-injured Clifton to fill the role again, and here we are. It's a bad positions to be in especially because we have a first year starter at the other tackle spot. Shaky tackle play on both sides of the line will doom any team. I'm not entirely blaming Ted Thompson on this, it's not like we expected to lose both of our starting tackles in one season--I just wish he had a little better foresight and at least brought in someone to compete for the tackle jobs.

I'm happy with the way our team is built right now but I hope that Ted Thompson throws out his rule book for at least the first round next year and grabs us a solid tackle.
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