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Formo  
#121 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 10:41:59 PM(UTC)
djcubez, I never would have expected you to jump on me for pointing out some 'excuses'. But I know there are a handful of people that would have. That was my point. It's hard, but I, too, want intelligent football talk with objective views.

Zombie, I agree, the Stillers played all out. Which is why this loss didn't bother me much. I still believe the Vikings best play would beat the Stillers best play, it just wasn't in the cards this past week.

DGB454, I think the Vikings hit their peak and may be on the decline.. At least until they are ranked number 1 in all power rankings (definitely not now, and probably not at all this season, unless a SB win occurs). I enjoyed being at 6-0, and I still enjoy being 6-1. =D
djcubez  
#122 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 10:49:17 PM(UTC)
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I think the Bears were optimistic too. The difference is they beat the Steelers. Look at them now.

That being said..... You guys actually have a reason to be optimistic. As long as Favre can hold up you have a good chance at going into the post season with a solid team.


Exactly my point. But it gets translated into 'Favre being a God', and how he 'can't do any wrong', etc etc etc etc. We can't win in that discussion.



Formo.. It isn't the normal fan that creates the Favre is god objections... it is jaded comments like this.

Quote:
That defense is playing like ASS. Peterson is not doing anything out of this world. His receivers dropped like 7 easy balls and the last one returned for a TD when Favre was about to punch in the go ahead score. If you watched it, you know this is so. To say otherwise is just sour grapes.


Favre wasn't out there himself... but comments like this skew the arguments.


First off, I don't see how Gravedigga's comment could have been skewed too much. The only objection I have is the defense playing like 'ASS'. I agree, it could have played better.. and if they knew how to catch an effin' football, they could have put the game away long before the last ditch effort at the end (two plays IN A ROW Vikings defenders dropped easy INTs on the drive with Rothlesburger's TD pass to their rookie WR). But otherwise, with the Whinny injury, I was impressed with the Vikings D.

Second off, you know damn straight that I would have been 'mauled' if I came on here complaining about ref calls and bad bounces, and how the one 'tripping' penalty caused a 14 point swing that could have effected the outcome of the game, and how Favre's INT was in no way his fault because it hit Chester RIGHT IN THE DAMN HANDS. It would have been turned around into how much I sniffed Brett's jock and how he could do no wrong that game.

Maybe not by you, or by even the majority.. But there would have been people here that would have eaten that crap up. Bottom line, the Vikings played a fairly good game, and the Stillers played a notch better.


Wait wait... do Vikings fans really think that tripping call was a bad call? It was a bad play at a very inopportune time, I will give them that. But if that's not a trip, I'm not sure what is.


Yes, it was a bad call. He left the ground (thus eliminating a possibility for him to purposefully attempt to 'trip' the defender), which I agree with Pack93z isn't the best way to block, but it wasn't a trip.. I've seen multiple backs make that type of block, and never have I seen a flag for 'tripping'. You claiming it a trip is seeing it through green goggles.


I didn't see the play in question so my opinion isn't worth much on this however the definition of tripping in the NFL is "Using a leg or foot to trip another player." If indeed the player did use his leg or foot to trip another player regardless of the situation than it can be called a trip. Like I said I didn't see the play so I could even be aiding Formo's argument.

Secondly, even if it is a bad call you have to roll with them. The Packers had a terrible call in the Bears game on Al Harris when in fact there should have been a penalty called on the Bears instead of on the Pack. I'm not trying to say "we're even" or anything of that sort--just that these sorts of calls happen.

Also I'd like to point out that just because the ref may have nerfed a touchdown with a bogus call doesn't mean he gave the ball to the Steelers. Favre did that on his own 3 plays later.

Quote:
Three plays later, Brett Favre was sacked, and LaMarr Woodley returned a fumble 77 yards for a touchdown, resulting in a 14-point swing.


You also got a kickoff return TD right after the fumble return by the Steelers so I don't think you can put too much blame on that one call (even though it seems the rest of the world agrees it was bad).
Formo  
#123 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 11:11:42 PM(UTC)
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I think the Bears were optimistic too. The difference is they beat the Steelers. Look at them now.

That being said..... You guys actually have a reason to be optimistic. As long as Favre can hold up you have a good chance at going into the post season with a solid team.


Exactly my point. But it gets translated into 'Favre being a God', and how he 'can't do any wrong', etc etc etc etc. We can't win in that discussion.



Formo.. It isn't the normal fan that creates the Favre is god objections... it is jaded comments like this.

Quote:
That defense is playing like ASS. Peterson is not doing anything out of this world. His receivers dropped like 7 easy balls and the last one returned for a TD when Favre was about to punch in the go ahead score. If you watched it, you know this is so. To say otherwise is just sour grapes.


Favre wasn't out there himself... but comments like this skew the arguments.


First off, I don't see how Gravedigga's comment could have been skewed too much. The only objection I have is the defense playing like 'ASS'. I agree, it could have played better.. and if they knew how to catch an effin' football, they could have put the game away long before the last ditch effort at the end (two plays IN A ROW Vikings defenders dropped easy INTs on the drive with Rothlesburger's TD pass to their rookie WR). But otherwise, with the Whinny injury, I was impressed with the Vikings D.

Second off, you know damn straight that I would have been 'mauled' if I came on here complaining about ref calls and bad bounces, and how the one 'tripping' penalty caused a 14 point swing that could have effected the outcome of the game, and how Favre's INT was in no way his fault because it hit Chester RIGHT IN THE DAMN HANDS. It would have been turned around into how much I sniffed Brett's jock and how he could do no wrong that game.

Maybe not by you, or by even the majority.. But there would have been people here that would have eaten that crap up. Bottom line, the Vikings played a fairly good game, and the Stillers played a notch better.


Wait wait... do Vikings fans really think that tripping call was a bad call? It was a bad play at a very inopportune time, I will give them that. But if that's not a trip, I'm not sure what is.


Yes, it was a bad call. He left the ground (thus eliminating a possibility for him to purposefully attempt to 'trip' the defender), which I agree with Pack93z isn't the best way to block, but it wasn't a trip.. I've seen multiple backs make that type of block, and never have I seen a flag for 'tripping'. You claiming it a trip is seeing it through green goggles.


I didn't see the play in question so my opinion isn't worth much on this however the definition of tripping in the NFL is "Using a leg or foot to trip another player." If indeed the player did use his leg or foot to trip another player regardless of the situation than it can be called a trip. Like I said I didn't see the play so I could even be aiding Formo's argument.

Secondly, even if it is a bad call you have to roll with them. The Packers had a terrible call in the Bears game on Al Harris when in fact there should have been a penalty called on the Bears instead of on the Pack. I'm not trying to say "we're even" or anything of that sort--just that these sorts of calls happen.

Also I'd like to point out that just because the ref may have nerfed a touchdown with a bogus call doesn't mean he gave the ball to the Steelers. Favre did that on his own 3 plays later.

Quote:
Three plays later, Brett Favre was sacked, and LaMarr Woodley returned a fumble 77 yards for a touchdown, resulting in a 14-point swing.


You also got a kickoff return TD right after the fumble return by the Steelers so I don't think you can put too much blame on that one call (even though it seems the rest of the world agrees it was bad).


I'm aware of dealing with bad calls, hense why I didn't throw a huge fit about it. Like I said, bottom line, the Vikes didn't play as hard as the Stillers.

To make a minor correction, Favre wouldn't have 'given' the ball to the Stillers if that was the right call, because it was a TD that was called back. Yeah, sure, Harvin scored on the ensuing kick off after that fumble (which, BTW, I would have loved to see that play again, I swore I saw atleast one hold on the return.. but again, I'd have to see it again..) but it still was a 14 point swing. Harvin wouldn't have needed to return that kickoff.

Looking at the tripping call again, it looks like the Vikings player, Dugan, dove for the block while turning his body so his back was towards the Steeler (apparently called a 'rolling block').. The initial contact was at or around the lower back area, but the defensive player used a swim/jumping move to maneuver around/over Dugan, and ended up eating turf while diving over Dugan's lower body. My point was Dugan made his dive-block before the defensive player made his move, thus how could he trip the guy? That's all.

Here's the YouTube video.. at the 29 second mark is the beginning of the good replay angle.
Zero2Cool  
#124 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 11:12:16 PM(UTC)
[align=center][size=28]THE
VIKINGS
LOST
GET
OVER
IT
[/size][/align] :horse: :horse: :horse:
[align=center] :danceme: :danceme: :danceme: [/align]
[align=right] :onfloor: :onfloor: :onfloor:[/align]
Formo  
#125 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 11:13:06 PM(UTC)
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[align=center][size=28]THE
VIKINGS
LOST
GET
OVER
IT
[/size][/align] :horse: :horse: :horse:
[align=center] :danceme: :danceme: :danceme: [/align]
[align=right] :onfloor: :onfloor: :onfloor:[/align]


Been over it, you troll.. =P

Ready for another beat down next Sunday?
Zero2Cool  
#126 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 11:16:10 PM(UTC)
No.
porky88  
#127 Posted : Monday, October 26, 2009 11:22:27 PM(UTC)
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BTW.. it is funny no one was saying Favre was holding the ball to long in the pocket.. that fumble was a 5 count. ;)


" said: Go to Quoted Post
He did hold the ball too long on the fumble though. Wait he does that? A little karma maybe :)


:thumbright:
djcubez  
#128 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:05:39 AM(UTC)
Hate to say it Formo but I can see why that was called. He did throw the backside of his legs at him and Harrison was coming on an all out blitz. I can see how he was trying to throw a cut block though but technically his legs tripped Harrison. Either way it's a big call to make.

Also I wonder if Dugan will be fined. If you watch the ensuing kickoff return by Harvin he absolutely crushes a referee.
Formo  
#129 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:15:21 AM(UTC)
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Hate to say it Formo but I can see why that was called. He did throw the backside of his legs at him and Harrison was coming on an all out blitz. I can see how he was trying to throw a cut block though but technically his legs tripped Harrison. Either way it's a big call to make.


It could have been seen as a trip, but no way it's a legal trip. Initial contact was with Dugan's lower back/ass, and the defender dives over his legs/ass.

" said: Go to Quoted Post
Also I wonder if Dugan will be fined. If you watch the ensuing kickoff return by Harvin he absolutely crushes a referee.


I was actually waiting for a penalty on that one.. it looked like Dugan had zero intention of moving out of the way. My wife watched that part of the game with me, and even though she doesn't know what the line of scrimage is, she was yelling at the ref to move before Harvin got to him, much less Dugan. Was pretty funny.

I'd be expecting a fine if I were Dugan. Can't blame him, though.. I probably would have done worse after that call.
Nonstopdrivel  
#130 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 1:40:49 AM(UTC)
He extended his arms in a clear show of intent before hitting the ref. He absolutely deserves a fine. I do think the ref Hollywooded a little after the hit, though.
RedSoxExcel  
#131 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 2:52:01 PM(UTC)
Nonstop, your signature avatar thing is nuts. It almost seems like its from a Hollywood movie or something but thats real life. Mayweather is awesome.
Pack93z  
#132 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 2:56:35 PM(UTC)
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BTW.. it is funny no one was saying Favre was holding the ball to long in the pocket.. that fumble was a 5 count. ;)


" said: Go to Quoted Post
He did hold the ball too long on the fumble though. Wait he does that? A little karma maybe :)


:thumbright:


Missed it Porky.. +1.
Nonstopdrivel  
#133 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 6:40:41 PM(UTC)
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Nonstop, your signature avatar thing is nuts.


I'm still accepting +1s for my avatar. ;)

I love the GIF except for the fact that the color gradients are washed out and smudgy. It looks like it was ripped from a dirt-cheap DVD player on a computer with a bargain-basement video card. Ah, well, such is the joy of compression.
dd80forever  
#134 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:10:44 PM(UTC)
If I am a Viking fan, I'm jacked about this loss. You went head to head with one, if not the best, team in the league and you had them beat. It took fluke plays and crap calls for the Steelers to win that game.

I am a registered official in Ohio and that was a garbage call. Just because you TRIP over someone in NO WAY means it is a trip. Dugan went low for a cut block and the guy tried to hurdle him and got his legs contacted with the legs of the blocker. Not intentional in ANY WAY. Terrible call. That type of thing could be called 10 times every game.

And the Favre screen pass? Are you guys really that bitter that you could pin that on Brett. A High Throw? Ummmmmm most screen passes of that distance are high because even though the guy is close you have to lob it over the Defense. He couldn't have put it in his belly, Taylor's has to use his hands. Who catches with there belly in the pros anyhow? Unbelievable.
porky88  
#135 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:17:56 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
If I am a Viking fan, I'm jacked about this loss. You went head to head with one, if not the best, team in the league and you had them beat. It took fluke plays and crap calls for the Steelers to win that game.

I am a registered official in Ohio and that was a garbage call. Just because you TRIP over someone in NO WAY means it is a trip. Dugan went low for a cut block and the guy tried to hurdle him and got his legs contacted with the legs of the blocker. Not intentional in ANY WAY. Terrible call. That type of thing could be called 10 times every game.

And the Favre screen pass? Are you guys really that bitter that you could pin that on Brett. A High Throw? Ummmmmm most screen passes of that distance are high because even though the guy is close you have to lob it over the Defense. He couldn't have put it in his belly, Taylor's has to use his hands. Who catches with there belly in the pros anyhow? Unbelievable.


I agree.

If Green Bay plays Pittsburgh like that, will your feelings be the same? :)
Zero2Cool  
#136 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:39:15 PM(UTC)
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I am a registered official in Ohio and that was a garbage call. Just because you TRIP over someone in NO WAY means it is a trip. Dugan went low for a cut block and the guy tried to hurdle him and got his legs contacted with the legs of the blocker. Not intentional in ANY WAY. Terrible call. That type of thing could be called 10 times every game.

You come to the defense of a call like this for the Vikings, but when a Packer lost his footing, slipped into the opponent on a kickoff, nothing? You know what the player's intentions were? Unbelievable.

" said: Go to Quoted Post
And the Favre screen pass? Are you guys really that bitter that you could pin that on Brett. A High Throw? Ummmmmm most screen passes of that distance are high because even though the guy is close you have to lob it over the Defense. He couldn't have put it in his belly, Taylor's has to use his hands. Who catches with there belly in the pros anyhow? Unbelievable.


Rodgers does this same play, you'd blame him for the loss. Vikings QB does it, you say anyone that points out it was a bad throw must be bitter. Unbelievable.
UserPostedImage

You do NOT throw a 5 yard screen pass if a defender is between you and the potential receiver is facing you. The receiving player should be motioning away from you and the QB should lead the receiver down field or to open field.

In this case the ball should have been thrown outside to Taylors right arm and mid level, not high and there wasn't anyone around to throw it over. Vikings QB threw a bad pass, big deal. He's not perfect, get over it. Was the play his fault? Taylor SHOULD have caught the ball. Rule one in catching, if you can put your hands on it, you should catch it.

Watch the play by clicking HERE.

I'm not a registered official in any state or anything fancy, but I believe the cause of the Vikings losing the game is on Brad Childress. Not so much Taylor or Vikings QB. Vikings were within FG range and passing instead of running? I understand you play to win the game, but I just think that was bad. 51 passes. 18 rushes for Adrian?
dd80forever  
#137 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:56:48 PM(UTC)
What?

Zero, you don't lead a RB on any type of screen play in the box. The idea of it is to face poor pass blocking and let the rushers go past you, than have the ball dumped over the top. I don't know where you get you should lead him. Look at Taylors position, You wanted him to be lead to his outside shoulder? I'm sorry, but thats absurd. If Taylor was to be lead he surely wouldn't be facing the way he is in your snapshot. It is set up like any other screen play in the box run by every other team in the NFL. Lead on a middle screen? Huh?

If he takes off like that the defender you see in the picture would be all over him.


Favre's location on the pass was fine, if anything he put to much zip on it for a short pass but these are NFL players that need to catch the ball.


I would come to defense on A-Rod on a play like this to. If you hit the WR in the hands and it bounces off and gets picked, you can't put that on ANY QB.


The Vikes played well, head up with one of the best in the NFL and got screwed on a bogus tripping call that took points off the board and were victimized by fluke Defensive scores. I am not trying to convince you because you know, deep down inside, that this team is alot further along than GB is.
Formo  
#138 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:03:16 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post

UserPostedImage

You do NOT throw a 5 yard screen pass if a defender is between you and the potential receiver is facing you. The receiving player should be motioning away from you and the QB should lead the receiver down field or to open field.

In this case the ball should have been thrown outside to Taylors right arm and mid level, not high and there wasn't anyone around to throw it over. Vikings QB threw a bad pass, big deal. He's not perfect, get over it. Was the play his fault? Taylor SHOULD have caught the ball. Rule one in catching, if you can put your hands on it, you should catch it.

Watch the play by clicking HERE.

I'm not a registered official in any state or anything fancy, but I believe the cause of the Vikings losing the game is on Brad Childress. Not so much Taylor or Vikings QB. Vikings were within FG range and passing instead of running? I understand you play to win the game, but I just think that was bad. 51 passes. 18 rushes for Adrian?


Pretty solid analysis.. 2 of the biggest points you made that are spot on are, "Taylor SHOULD have caught the ball. Rule one in catching, if you can put your hands on it, you should catch it." And, "51 passes. 18 rushes".. Just don't call those plays with AP as your RB. It's not like the Vikings were playing from THAT much behind most of the game.
Zero2Cool  
#139 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 10:58:13 PM(UTC)
At least Formo appears to understand what I was getting at.

" said: Go to Quoted Post
Zero, you don't lead a RB on any type of screen play in the box. The idea of it is to face poor pass blocking and let the rushers go past you, than have the ball dumped over the top. I don't know where you get you should lead him. Look at Taylors position, You wanted him to be lead to his outside shoulder? I'm sorry, but thats absurd. If Taylor was to be lead he surely wouldn't be facing the way he is in your snapshot. It is set up like any other screen play in the box run by every other team in the NFL. Lead on a middle screen? Huh?

If he takes off like that the defender you see in the picture would be all over him.


I read this and decided to watch the play a dozen or so times. I see the second blocker for the inside that indicates this was a dump off to the inside. Therefore the ball should not have been thrown to the outside as I originally said. When I watched it earlier, it appeared his blockers were blocking for an outside screen. Even with that said, the ball should have been thrown lower. And as I said earlier, the fault falls more on Taylor for the interception than Vikings QB. To say nothing was wrong with the pass is, in my opinion, inaccurate.


" said: Go to Quoted Post
Favre's location on the pass was fine, if anything he put to much zip on it for a short pass but these are NFL players that need to catch the ball.

You're right, these are NFL players and therefore should make a more accurate throw. :)


" said: Go to Quoted Post
I would come to defense on A-Rod on a play like this to. If you hit the WR in the hands and it bounces off and gets picked, you can't put that on ANY QB.

My bullshit-o-meter jus blew up. You spend time defending the Vikings, not the Packers. You'd only come to someone's defense if it was the uncommon perception. You like to be the little guy fighting the big fight. So it appears to me.


" said: Go to Quoted Post
The Vikes played well, head up with one of the best in the NFL and got screwed on a bogus tripping call that took points off the board and were victimized by fluke Defensive scores. I am not trying to convince you because you know, deep down inside, that this team is alot further along than GB is.


Fluke, bogus, and you think deep down inside I feel the Packers are farther than the Vikings? You need to read more before you make such heinous statements. I've stated more than once that the Vikings were the team to beat in our division and are a CONTENDER for the Super Bowl. Where have I said that about the Packers?
Formo  
#140 Posted : Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:17:37 PM(UTC)
To be honest, it looks like Z2C and DD80 are arguing the same point.. Damn it's confusing. lol
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