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Rios39  
#181 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 4:29:40 PM(UTC)
One has to ask though if we are actually better off with Pickett at NT. Usually the NT is known for getting a bit of push but mostly swallowing the run game. Last night was the most dominant we have been against the run. Last year we were "ok" against the run in 2010 with Raji at NT we did not do the best verse the run but had a great pass rush, in 2009 with Pickett at NT I believe we gave up the least amount of rushing yards in football.

If he's not going to be sucking up the middle of the field on run downs and his pass rush is "good" not great, maybe it's time to move him into the DE area and see if he can get some favorable matchups that way.

I guess we will see how he looks when he gets back. Our push up the middle was ok, our rush up the field was great but I've never seen the line of scrimmage get pushed so consistently into the offense side of the field against a quality team, so frequently. While playing on the road where you don't really get a jump on the snap.
macbob  
#182 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:46:22 PM(UTC)
zombieslayer said: Go to Quoted Post
Sort of sarcastic.

This is more of a response to the "we need a good RB" myth that has been harped on consistently by football fans. We don't need a "good" RB. We just need NFL caliber RBs, which means somewhere in the top 100 of the position. Yes, that's all we really need.

A good OL should open up the holes where any of the top 100 RBs in the NFL could get 3+ ypc, and that's pretty much all you need. Top $$$ should be spent on D, as from my research, D wins Championships, and secondary in importance is an elite QB. RBs don't matter, and don't even figure in the equation of who wins Championships.

Through my research, I found I was wrong about the %s of pass/run. I thought we could go 65/35. You can't do that all season long. High 50s is about the right %. And too much rushing (50% or more) is also a bad thing.

In the game last night, we got to see Green get 22 carries. The 67 yards would actually be considered "mediocre," but that's fine. Mediocre RBs are ideal as like I've said, the yards don't matter. All that matters are the carries.

You'll get the yards if you have a decent OL. Benson, Green, Starks, Ryan Grant, and probably Brandon Seine could all be thrown back there and the game results will be the same.

Green did what he was supposed to do - hold on to the football and get 3+ ypc. That's it. That's all you really need from a RB.

From a Packers' perspective, bonus if the RB can catch passes and block.


Zombie--a truly awesome post. Only two things I would have said slightly differently:

1) Top 100 RB is a 3rd stringer on the worst team in the NFL. I think you need a little higher quality than that for your starter, but agree 100% that there are better things to spend your $$ on than an elite RB.

2) Attempts/carries matter most, but yards do matter. If everytime you run you get -2 yds the defense isn't going to honor the run as much as if you get 7 yds per carry. You don't need to lead the league in rushing, but need to have a certain level of success, and I think 3 yds per carry is probably about the minimum you need to keep the D honest.

=d> =d> =d> =d> =d>
macbob  
#183 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:49:24 PM(UTC)
DarkaneRules said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you guys think that Raji is overvalued as a run defender? Pickett seemed much more effective in there and even our nickel seems well equipped to step up over that with Neal and Worthy together.


I like Pickett moved back to NT--that's his natural position--and Raji playing DE. Think we're a better line when we're like that. Move Raji inside on obvious passing downs, but otherwise we'd have Perry and Raji over on the opposite side of CM3, and I think that would give an offense all kinds of fits.
User is suspended until 5/28/2018 11:54:40 AM(UTC) DakotaT  
#184 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 6:56:16 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji's not known as a run defender. He's a pass rushing NT.

Pickett is the run stuffer of the group.


They should just let Pickett play the nose and then bring Raji in with Worthy when they want to rush 4.

We play some funky formations and are very rarely in our 3-4 base. What I think is stupid is playing Pickett at end. It makes no fucking sense, especially when C.J. Wilson and Neal are playing better.
zombieslayer  
#185 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 7:14:58 PM(UTC)
macbob said: Go to Quoted Post
Zombie--a truly awesome post. Only two things I would have said slightly differently:

1) Top 100 RB is a 3rd stringer on the worst team in the NFL. I think you need a little higher quality than that for your starter, but agree 100% that there are better things to spend your $$ on than an elite RB.

2) Attempts/carries matter most, but yards do matter. If everytime you run you get -2 yds the defense isn't going to honor the run as much as if you get 7 yds per carry. You don't need to lead the league in rushing, but need to have a certain level of success, and I think 3 yds per carry is probably about the minimum you need to keep the D honest.

=d> =d> =d> =d> =d>


Thanks Macbob. Almost brought a tear to my eye. Love Love

1) OK, maybe top 50 would be better. And don't get me wrong. I don't hate RBs. My favorite non-Packer ever was Wallie Payton. My favorite non-Packer today is Adrian Peterson. This is just what the research has been telling me.

2) Well, only a real bad back is gonna get -2 yards a carry. Even a 3rd string RB should get you at least 2.5 ypc. Unless of course your OL sucks and in that case, your QB is probably dead anyways and you won't get that far, even with an elite D. You still need some offense.

But you really don't need success. There is no historical difference since the 80s (it takes forever to sift through stats so I don't go back very far) between having the #1 rushing team and the #20 rushing team. The stand out elite rushing team who was dominant were the 90s Cows and the 90s Broncos. But there have been so many really bad teams at running the ball who have won Championships that they statistically even out the 90s Broncos and Cows.

So once again, in importance is:
1) elite D,
2) elite QB

And that's pretty much it. Of course a real bad OL gets your QB killed so that's somewhere up there in importance.


EDIT: Just in case you were wondering (which I'm sure you were) how our recent SB winning teams were in rushing, here ya go:
1996 Packers - Out of 30 teams, 14th in attempts, 11 in yards, 19th in TDs
2010 Packers - Out of 32 teams, 20th in attempts, 24th in yards, 19th in TDs

To be honest, I was surprised we ran that well in 1996. I thought we'd be in the bottom 10. But then I forgot that we had a dual RB system that year.
Wade  
#186 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 7:58:53 PM(UTC)
DarkaneRules said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you guys think that Raji is overvalued as a run defender? Pickett seemed much more effective in there and even our nickel seems well equipped to step up over that with Neal and Worthy together.


Yes.

IMO a nose tackle should routinely occupy two blockers. Far too often, Raji was getting stoned by just one.

Pickett's only problem is that with his age/weight, he can't do the volume of plays without wearing down.

I have to admit Worthy has looked better than I thought he would.

Wade  
#187 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2012 8:00:00 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji's not known as a run defender. He's a pass rushing NT.

Pickett is the run stuffer of the group.


Except that Raji hasn't been doing either one particularly well (except for the second half of 2010).

zombieslayer  
#188 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:03:47 AM(UTC)
Raji has been solid when Cullen Jenkins was in the lineup. Post-Cullen Jenkins, he's been quite average; definitely not first round material. I think one of Ted Thompson's priorities in the 2012 off-season (via draft, trade, waivers, or whatever) would be to replace Cullen Jenkins.

I've said elsewhere that the 2011 D was so bad that it may take 2 off-seasons to bring us back to elite status (as we were in 2010).
DarkaneRules  
#189 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:25:06 AM(UTC)
I see a Raji dilemma honestly. Wish we had another Pickett. Raji is not that. Thought he would be.
Rios39  
#190 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:18:49 PM(UTC)
zombieslayer said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji has been solid when Cullen Jenkins was in the lineup. Post-Cullen Jenkins, he's been quite average; definitely not first round material. I think one of Ted Thompson's priorities in the 2012 off-season (via draft, trade, waivers, or whatever) would be to replace Cullen Jenkins.

I've said elsewhere that the 2011 D was so bad that it may take 2 off-seasons to bring us back to elite status (as we were in 2010).


Well we have Worthy and Daniels as well as Wilson doing good in pass rush. What we need more of is a stout MLB. Bishop is without a doubt solid and Hawk is playing much more fast and aggressive/except in coverage. So I think we either draft a stout MLB Safety or maybe CB. All in all I'm happy with our defense but when we have to rely on our MLB's to cover. When the right plays have been called we have looked good.
Pack93z  
#191 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:23:09 PM(UTC)
No, I don't think Pickett should be there full time. IMO, though, he should be rotated in there in combination with Raji. Raji gives you something Pickett does not.. pass rush push. So I think Pickett should be in a rotation at both nose and end. Either that or you put Pick at the nose and rotate in Raji from end to nose in passing downs.

Another point.. Pickett will wear down at the nose.. he has worn down at end already towards the end of the season. Summary.. it should be a rotation of some sorts between Raji and Pick at nose.
PackerTraxx  
#192 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:25:30 PM(UTC)
I think Raji has the talent but for some reason, his, scheme, coaches, it's not being realized. Possibly he could use a little more of a mean streak like Nagota.
Rios39  
#193 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:33:56 PM(UTC)
well you draft him expecting him to be impact. The better NT's in the game barely get any sacks maybe 1-3 but they push the pile forward and devastate a running game. If he got push up the middle more Clay and Perry could eat up. It's been more our athletic DE's like Worthy and Neal that have been causing problems up the middle.

Oddly we lead the league in sacks this year but still giving up too many points. Yards are about normal. We are getting no picks either. We are good at most positions on the field so this is something that needs to be addressed as a coaching staff. Got to find a way to cover the first soft zone over the middle, that's where the yards are coming from (Hawk, DJ)Hopefully Brad Jones can be decent in coverage, that could help there.

Now Houston is a very good offensive team and we shut them down to 17 points. Chicago was also a very good offensive team that we shut down but haven't played as well against some teams that we are better then.

Shouldn't have given up 32 points to the 49ers, shouldn't have given up 28 points to the colts. Those are the big ones for me. Vs the Saints and Texans you can pretty much guarantee they'll put some kind of offense on you no matter how good your D is.
wpr  
#194 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:43:25 PM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
No, I don't think Pickett should be there full time. IMO, though, he should be rotated in there in combination with Raji. Raji gives you something Pickett does not.. pass rush push. So I think Pickett should be in a rotation at both nose and end. Either that or you put Pick at the nose and rotate in Raji from end to nose in passing downs.

Another point.. Pickett will wear down at the nose.. he has worn down at end already towards the end of the season. Summary.. it should be a rotation of some sorts between Raji and Pick at nose.


I was glancing through your post and thought you said "Pick you nose." I have to slow down and read it again. #-o

BTW Darth Vader is not a bass guitar player. He would like to be up front in the lights. he is more of a lead guitarist.
nerdmann  
#195 Posted : Tuesday, October 16, 2012 2:09:09 PM(UTC)
Rios39 said: Go to Quoted Post
well you draft him expecting him to be impact. The better NT's in the game barely get any sacks maybe 1-3 but they push the pile forward and devastate a running game. If he got push up the middle more Clay and Perry could eat up. It's been more our athletic DE's like Worthy and Neal that have been causing problems up the middle.

Oddly we lead the league in sacks this year but still giving up too many points. Yards are about normal. We are getting no picks either. We are good at most positions on the field so this is something that needs to be addressed as a coaching staff. Got to find a way to cover the first soft zone over the middle, that's where the yards are coming from (Hawk, DJ)Hopefully Brad Jones can be decent in coverage, that could help there.

Now Houston is a very good offensive team and we shut them down to 17 points. Chicago was also a very good offensive team that we shut down but haven't played as well against some teams that we are better then.

Shouldn't have given up 32 points to the 49ers, shouldn't have given up 28 points to the colts. Those are the big ones for me. Vs the Saints and Texans you can pretty much guarantee they'll put some kind of offense on you no matter how good your D is.


The INTs are there, we just haven't been getting them. Until this past game.
Wade  
#196 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:00:59 AM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I was glancing through your post and thought you said "Pick you nose." I have to slow down and read it again. #-o

BTW Darth Vader is not a bass guitar player. He would like to be up front in the lights. he is more of a lead guitarist.


No. He's the cellist. :)

Wade  
#197 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:01:44 AM(UTC)
Wade said: Go to Quoted Post
No. He's the cellist. :)

(Obscure Harry Chapin allusion.)



Rios39  
#198 Posted : Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:46:00 PM(UTC)
zombieslayer said: Go to Quoted Post
Raji has been solid when Cullen Jenkins was in the lineup. Post-Cullen Jenkins, he's been quite average; definitely not first round material. I think one of Ted Thompson's priorities in the 2012 off-season (via draft, trade, waivers, or whatever) would be to replace Cullen Jenkins.

I've said elsewhere that the 2011 D was so bad that it may take 2 off-seasons to bring us back to elite status (as we were in 2010).


What's worth noting is that Jenkins doesn't have a sack in his last 16 games as a starter. They have a large rotation but so do the packers now when at full strength.

We need to start seeing more push from Raji though, he has more than adequate talent around him with Worthy (2 sacks)Wilson (2 sacks)Neal (1 sack/2 games) Pickett who kills is our best run defender on the line. Even Daniels has looked good playing rarely (1 sack). Over the course of the year if those stats continue it'll be one of the more dominant lines in the NFL as far as 3-4 D's go.

Raji has 0 sacks on the year and most NT only get about 0-3 on the year but when watching good defenses you usually always see the line moving towards the QB. We showed some push last week. Against the Bears I believe Raji looked half decent but other than that it's only been outside pressure unless it's a creative stunt blitz. It's time Raji starts dominating upfront or it's time to start looking at other potential NT's within the next few years.

Also, sometimes it looks like Raji is trying to beat guys more than take on blocks and push through, actually looking to show quickness to get a sack. Which worked in 2010 but since he's shown barely anything (probably an adjustment from the offense). You'd think for the amount of times we blitz he could get a one on one and blow a guy up with his strength/speed but that's been more the case with Worthy, Neal, Wilson ect..
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