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Online Zero2Cool  
#151 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:01:39 AM(UTC)
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Mike McCarthy wrote:
I wasn’t real happy with the production in the run game. I thought we left too many hard yards on the field. There were too many 1, 2-yard runs that should have been hardball 3, 4, 5-yard runs. We need to improve that aspect of our offense.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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nerdmann on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline TheKanataThrilla  
#152 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 6:53:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
We have been good at 3rd downs, but not at 3rd and short. On pass plays in general, we drop about 13% on 3rd & <2 from 3rd and 3-7.


If Mike McCarthy is such the stats guy maybe we should false start on 3rd and short to increase our chances at the first down. Think

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Offline PackerTraxx  
#153 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 7:27:55 AM(UTC)
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Rodgers seems to be a little more patient the last two games throwing short 5-6 yard passes and swing passes that pick up 12-15 yards. Ala WCO. This can be as effective as a good running game and Green contributes to that. Don't get me wrong I too would like us to add a good running game to our arsenal. But until that happens we have to do what we can.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#154 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:01:07 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gaycandybacon Go to Quoted Post
I just don't know what peoples expectations are anymore... Ecspecially expectations for a passing team. People should realise our short passing game is our running game. Dumpoffs, Running back screens, option to run or throw a bubble screen etc. etc. They all help us move the chains. Kuhn, Cobb, and Green all excell at this. We dominated the TOP with these types of things sunday. Some of you guys should know yards don't tell the whole story. Running for big yards is overrated.

Would you rather have Adrain Peterson or Aaron Rodgers win you games? Choose wisely boys.


Wish I could give you more than one applause point for this.

We are a passing team. And we will remain a passing team as long as Aaron Rodgers is our QB and Mike McCarthy is our Coach.

Run just enough to keep the opposing D honest and to give our D a rest, blah blah blah, but we're a passing team. We win games by throwing the ball well, not by running the football.

Give Aaron Rodgers an elite receiving set. Who cares who's running the football as long as he doesn't fumble? Bonus if he can block. Bonus if he's a good receiver.

I'd rather have Alex Green and Aaron Rodgers than Adrian Peterson and Christian Ponder. With some of you folks, I seriously question if you'd want it the other way around.
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Offline nerdmann  
#155 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:13:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackerTraxx Go to Quoted Post
Rodgers seems to be a little more patient the last two games throwing short 5-6 yard passes and swing passes that pick up 12-15 yards. Ala WCO. This can be as effective as a good running game and Green contributes to that. Don't get me wrong I too would like us to add a good running game to our arsenal. But until that happens we have to do what we can.


All purpose, Green was 2.8 per touch.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#156 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 10:33:24 AM(UTC)
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First 1/2 of the game, of 26 real plays (not counting clocking). 21 plays from shotgun, 5 from conventional.

Second 1/2 of the game, 23 plays shotgun, 17 conventional.

Second half was better, but when you are in shotgun that often, it makes it difficult on the Oline, and makes running harder. There are very few options in the run game out of shotgun. which leaves very few things defense has to worry about. No fear of a run game, and QB in a predictable depth to rush at allows defense to be very aggressive in their pass rush.

We need more standard formations, use 1 and 3 step drops, on some quick plays. Run the ball forwards instead of sideways.
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Wade on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline Pack93z  
#157 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 11:48:51 AM(UTC)
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All that is needed with the rules as they are is the threat of the run to assist the offense, I could roll onto the soapbox again, but as ZS says.. Blah, Blah, Blah. If you haven't heard it here enough, well before the pundits, well then continue on as you wish.

We should be a pass heavy team with our talent and the rules as they are.

I spent a couple hours compiling the numbers during Rodgers tenure, those numbers don't lie. 80% of the games in which we run the ball with the backs 20 times.. we win. Garbage time (4 Qtr) runs only see a 2% increase over the number of carries of the next highest quarter.

We only win at a clip of ~45% of the time when we don't run the ball with the backs 20 times.

I will take 80% over 45% any day of the week, including and especially Sundays. :)
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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thanks Post received 3 applause.
wpr on 10/23/2012(UTC), Wade on 10/23/2012(UTC), zombieslayer on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline wpr  
#158 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:26:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
All purpose, Green was 2.8 per touch.


they aught to release the bum. he's worthless. who cares that they are 2-0 in his starts. who cares if the OL is culpable for his numbers. who cares that 8 of his 12 carries were in the 4th quarter with GB milking the clock and the rams expecting the run. it is all green's fault that GB lost. Oh wait... never mind.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#159 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:29:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
All that is needed with the rules as they are is the threat of the run to assist the offense, I could roll onto the soapbox again, but as ZS says.. Blah, Blah, Blah. If you haven't heard it here enough, well before the pundits, well then continue on as you wish.

We should be a pass heavy team with our talent and the rules as they are.

I spent a couple hours compiling the numbers during Rodgers tenure, those numbers don't lie. 80% of the games in which we run the ball with the backs 20 times.. we win. Garbage time (4 Qtr) runs only see a 2% increase over the number of carries of the next highest quarter.

We only win at a clip of ~45% of the time when we don't run the ball with the backs 20 times.

I will take 80% over 45% any day of the week, including and especially Sundays. :)


Yes. Thus 20 carries for 35 yards by Green is perfect.

Do that all season long and we'll be fighting for Playoff position.
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Offline doddpower  
#160 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 2:46:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
First 1/2 of the game, of 26 real plays (not counting clocking). 21 plays from shotgun, 5 from conventional.

Second 1/2 of the game, 23 plays shotgun, 17 conventional.

Second half was better, but when you are in shotgun that often, it makes it difficult on the Oline, and makes running harder. There are very few options in the run game out of shotgun. which leaves very few things defense has to worry about. No fear of a run game, and QB in a predictable depth to rush at allows defense to be very aggressive in their pass rush.

We need more standard formations, use 1 and 3 step drops, on some quick plays. Run the ball forwards instead of sideways.


A team can still do power runs from a shotgun formation. Personally, I'd like to see more of those. It'd be nice to see Lang and/or Sitton pulling and mauling defensive players.

Offline zombieslayer  
#161 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 4:37:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
A team can still do power runs from a shotgun formation. Personally, I'd like to see more of those. It'd be nice to see Lang and/or Sitton pulling and mauling defensive players.



Exactly.

Mike McCarthy calls all those shotgun plays for a reason.

Let's see what's going on here. Last 2 games, our O put up 72 points. Must be doing something right. And that's with our lead RB getting a whopping 100 yards on 42 carries.

(For the record, the Rams were undefeated at home when we played them and the Texans were undefeated, period, when we played them).
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Offline Wade  
#162 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 4:41:47 PM(UTC)
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I still think the shotgun-play/non-shotgun play ratio is too large.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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thanks Post received 1 applause.
Gaycandybacon on 10/23/2012(UTC)
Offline all_about_da_packers  
#163 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 7:27:46 PM(UTC)
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I will say this for McCarthy: bravo.

The clinic your QB was putting on Sunday, and you still had the dedication to run that ball 20 times? Bravo.

I'm actually being serious... with the way Aaron was playing, I would not have blamed McCarthy for having Aaron drop back to throw every snap.

I'm actually shocked, and at a loss for words, to explain why he had the dedication to run so many times against the Rams when his QB looked like he was a man amongst children, against the Rams D, every time dropping back, but when we desperately needed to run the ball to give him some breathing room to operate prior (vs. Colts) McCarthy insisted on a passing mindset.

Frankly, I would not dismiss that the O-line and Alex Green got together to agree to sabotage the run game to at least make the Rams game slightly more interesting because Aaron Rodgers was downright amazing. He was playing the game as well as I have ever seen him play - and that includes the 2010 Falcons game where he was exceptional.
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Offline Gaycandybacon  
#164 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:08:24 PM(UTC)
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Even Aaron said it's all about the carries on his radio show today. Can't go wrong with the QB himself saying that.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#165 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:24:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doddpower Go to Quoted Post
A team can still do power runs from a shotgun formation. Personally, I'd like to see more of those. It'd be nice to see Lang and/or Sitton pulling and mauling defensive players.



Power doesn't give more options during the run though. It is just different way of blocking.

The problem/limitation of shotgun runs is it limits the option for the back, it limits the run to 1/2 the field instead of almost all of it. It makes the RB run even more parallel to the LOS. Which all but eliminates the chance of cutting back out the backside of the run.

A back moving toward the LOS to get the handoff, has visibility of the entire field and can choose either to go where the run was designed, or cut it left or right depending on blocking.


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Offline wpr  
#166 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2012 5:29:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers Go to Quoted Post

I'm actually being serious... with the way Aaron was playing, I would not have blamed McCarthy for having Aaron drop back to throw every snap.


no way. Mike tried that in Seattle. Aaron Rodgers got sacked 1 billion times. Gotta run some too.
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thanks Post received 3 applause.
Zero2Cool on 10/24/2012(UTC), yooperfan on 10/24/2012(UTC), Pack93z on 10/24/2012(UTC)
Offline nyrpack  
#167 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:23:17 PM(UTC)
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i think green is a 3rd down kind of guy, he is not the same guy after his bad injury last season, id rather have brandon jackson back !!
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Offline zombieslayer  
#168 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2012 2:43:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nyrpack Go to Quoted Post
i think green is a 3rd down kind of guy, he is not the same guy after his bad injury last season, id rather have brandon jackson back !!


I liked B-Jack too, but he hasn't had a carry since '10. That's a major red flag there.
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Offline macbob  
#169 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:16:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: zombieslayer Go to Quoted Post
Wait. Now I'm not getting what you're saying.

You're saying that Green kept the D honest this week, even with the low runs-per-carry. That, we agree on.

But you're saying I'm wrong about the yards not mattering. How much worse can you get than 35 yards on 20 carries? Was there any RB in the NFL in the 2012 season that got such crappy production on 20 carries? Anyone? Beuller?


Yards per carry weren't as important in last Sunday's game. In another game, in another situation, against another D will 1.5 yds per carry be enough? I'm not as confident on that as you seem to be.

I don't know what the sweet spot is, but on average my expectation the absolute rock-bottom minimum long-term (not just one game) is 3 yds per carry. I'm making that estimate based on the careers of RBs--there's been a few who have had long careers (John Riggins) with YPC that low, but not many.

The closer you get to 4 yds per carry the better, in my opinion. Ideally, I'd shoot for low 4s, run 20-25 times in a game to get into the 80-100 yd rushing range. You can get by with less than that, but you're putting a lot more pressure on your passing game if you do.
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