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wpr  
#21 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:22:28 PM(UTC)
PackerTraxx said: Go to Quoted Post
I've also seen GB go 3 and out... I'll take the points not matter how long it takes.


In my scenario the only sure points are the quick ones. It is not some evil plot by Mike McCarthy to blow away all the offensive records.

I will take the points too. long drive or quick one. There is nothing wrong with scoring quickly. There is no virtue to plodding along but there is a greater risk of not coring by getting on 4 yards an attempt.
QCHuskerFan  
#22 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 3:50:13 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Defense Rankings (of who played atleast 25% snaps) from ProFootballFocus - link to how they grade.

3 - 4 DE out of 32
  • 7th B.J. Raji
  • 13th Mike Neal
  • 32nd Jerel Worthy



3 - 4 OLB out of 34
  • 2nd Clay Matthews
  • 28th Dezman Moses
  • 34th Erik Walden



DT/NT out of 85
  • 37th Ryan Pickett



ILB out of 53
  • 10th Brad Jones
  • 20th A.J. Hawk
  • 28th D.J. Smith



CB out of 113
  • 3rd Casey Hayward
  • 12th Sam Shields
  • 40th Davon House
  • 60th Tramon Williams



S out of 88
  • 17th Morgan Burnett
  • 32nd Jerron McMillian
  • 37th Charles Woodson
  • 50th M.D. Jennings


Some real interesting things here. Packers had the worst 3-4 OLB and the worst 3-4 DE. Although what it really means is that we had the worst full time player at those positions. There were many worse players that didn't see the snaps that ours did. Packers staff has to look at last years draft and smile. Because their top pick would have been playing instead of the poorly rated 3-4 LBs and their #2 pick was good enough to log a lot of snaps, but bad enough to be poorly rated. Only way to go is up or injury...

Many are looking for big things from DJ Smith but he was rated only average and below Hawk, who many don't believe in.

Williams being the #60 CB is a big concern to me. I don't care how many big name receivers he is locked up on. He can't rank that bad and take up the salary he does.
PackFanWithTwins  
#23 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 6:16:18 PM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
Some real interesting things here. Packers had the worst 3-4 OLB and the worst 3-4 DE. Although what it really means is that we had the worst full time player at those positions. There were many worse players that didn't see the snaps that ours did. Packers staff has to look at last years draft and smile. Because their top pick would have been playing instead of the poorly rated 3-4 LBs and their #2 pick was good enough to log a lot of snaps, but bad enough to be poorly rated. Only way to go is up or injury...

Many are looking for big things from DJ Smith but he was rated only average and below Hawk, who many don't believe in.

Williams being the #60 CB is a big concern to me. I don't care how many big name receivers he is locked up on. He can't rank that bad and take up the salary he does.


There is seriously something wrong with this ranking system. Casey is not the 3rd best CB, neither he nor House are better than Tramon. Or McMillian better than Woodson. With rankings like that, it seriously questions any validity of that sight.
nerdmann  
#24 Posted : Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:24:53 PM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I think if you polled 100 HCs from the NFL and NCAA and asked them if they preferred to score in 2-3 plays but only used up a min off the clock or have the ball for 10 minutes where you may or may not score and the score could be only a FG, 100% of the coaches would chose to score quickly.

But that is just my guess. [grin1]


How'd that work out?
Packers_Finland  
#25 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 2:38:14 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
There is seriously something wrong with this ranking system. Casey is not the 3rd best CB, neither he nor House are better than Tramon. Or McMillian better than Woodson. With rankings like that, it seriously questions any validity of that sight.


How do you know? Do you watch every snap of every single NFL game multiple times? These guys do.

I thought Hayward was our best DB this year. He was spectacular. I'm not going to go as far as to say he's definitely better than Tramon, but he was better than him this year for sure. Hayward had more INTs, more defended passes, less TDs allowed (at zero) while playing considerably less snaps than Tramon. Tramon was %-wise targeted more often, and allowed more catches and yards per snap than Hayward. Though, one must consider that Tramon was covering the opponent's best guy more often than Hayward.

From what I've read (they have good articles too where they explain a lot of their grading and how that grade manifested itself during the games) it's a very reliable site in terms of evaluating players' performances. I don't think they know everything or have the perfect system for grading player performance but it's better than any other site I've seen.
wpr  
#26 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 6:40:21 AM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
How'd that work out?


excellent. Thanks for asking.
gbguy20  
#27 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 6:45:30 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
There is seriously something wrong with this ranking system. Casey is not the 3rd best CB, neither he nor House are better than Tramon. Or McMillian better than Woodson. With rankings like that, it seriously questions any validity of that sight.


http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

I trust their rankings much more than anything else I've come across
PackFanWithTwins  
#28 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 7:20:41 AM(UTC)
Packers_Finland said: Go to Quoted Post
How do you know? Do you watch every snap of every single NFL game multiple times? These guys do.

I thought Hayward was our best DB this year. He was spectacular. I'm not going to go as far as to say he's definitely better than Tramon, but he was better than him this year for sure. Hayward had more INTs, more defended passes, less TDs allowed (at zero) while playing considerably less snaps than Tramon. Tramon was %-wise targeted more often, and allowed more catches and yards per snap than Hayward. Though, one must consider that Tramon was covering the opponent's best guy more often than Hayward.

From what I've read (they have good articles too where they explain a lot of their grading and how that grade manifested itself during the games) it's a very reliable site in terms of evaluating players' performances. I don't think they know everything or have the perfect system for grading player performance but it's better than any other site I've seen.


Do you really need to watch every single snap to see that Hayward was not the 3rd best CB in the ENTIRE NFL? He was the 3rd best CB on this team. Thus being the NB. He had his shot while Shields was down and guess what. He didn't keep the #2 spot. Sammy took it back.

These guys, write trying to justify their site, yes they have interesting articles, but they are not the bible. If they knew that much, they would not be working on a website, they would have a job for a NFL team. Hayward, had the easiest job of our CB, he is surrounded by more help. I'll take the expertise of the coached of the Packers, over some geeks trying to make their site seem valid.
Zero2Cool  
#29 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 7:26:33 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you really need to watch every single snap to see that Hayward was not the 3rd best CB in the ENTIRE NFL? He was the 3rd best CB on this team.


Casey Hawyard had the third best season in the NFL, which is not saying he is the 3rd best CB in the NFL. Massive difference there, massive.
Pack93z  
#30 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 7:29:22 AM(UTC)
Packers_Finland said: Go to Quoted Post
How do you know? Do you watch every snap of every single NFL game multiple times? These guys do.

I thought Hayward was our best DB this year. He was spectacular. I'm not going to go as far as to say he's definitely better than Tramon, but he was better than him this year for sure. Hayward had more INTs, more defended passes, less TDs allowed (at zero) while playing considerably less snaps than Tramon. Tramon was %-wise targeted more often, and allowed more catches and yards per snap than Hayward. Though, one must consider that Tramon was covering the opponent's best guy more often than Hayward.

From what I've read (they have good articles too where they explain a lot of their grading and how that grade manifested itself during the games) it's a very reliable site in terms of evaluating players' performances. I don't think they know everything or have the perfect system for grading player performance but it's better than any other site I've seen.


Here is one thing that isn't taken into account in the rankings.. Hayward played most of the year in the slot, where you have more over help than the edge. You can gamble a bit more thus you should have more opportunities for picks... hence why they tried to always put Woodson in the slot.. allow his play making ability surface.

Not taking anything away from his game and performance this season.. just noting that PFF does a decent job overall IMO.. they don't always factor in the roles each player on each team takes.
PackFanWithTwins  
#31 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 7:56:41 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Casey Hawyard had the third best season in the NFL, which is not saying he is the 3rd best CB in the NFL. Massive difference there, massive.


I guess that might be the difference, for me the 3rd best player at a position in a season, has the 3rd best season at the position.
Zero2Cool  
#32 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 8:06:08 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
I guess that might be the difference, for me the 3rd best player at a position in a season, has the 3rd best season at the position.

I fully see where you are coming from. However, would you rather Darrelle Revis or Casey Hayward? Hayward had a better season in 2012 than Revis, but I believe Revis is superior to Hayward.

I choose not to think of players being the best solely predicated on their ranking in a statistical category. If a guy gets 20 sacks against single team and another guy gets 13 sacks while being double teamed and chipped, I think the 13 sacks is more impressive than the 20 sacks. But, the guy who had 20 sacks had a 'better' season.
QCHuskerFan  
#33 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 8:36:38 AM(UTC)
If all of our receivers are healthy, Jennings best spot is in the slot. Does that mean he is the #3 receiver on the team? No. He is the best receiver and his best work is done in the slot.

Just because Hayward plays the slot, doesn't mean he is the #3 CB on the team. His best position and the place that allows him to be the most productive.

Statistically, 59 other CBs had more productive seasons than Tramon. I think it is fair to assume some of them had to play against #1 receivers. Tramon had another underwhelming year. Packer Nation needs to wake up to the fact that his time may have come and gone.
PackFanWithTwins  
#34 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 8:49:27 AM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
If all of our receivers are healthy, Jennings best spot is in the slot. Does that mean he is the #3 receiver on the team? No. He is the best receiver and his best work is done in the slot.

Just because Hayward plays the slot, doesn't mean he is the #3 CB on the team. His best position and the place that allows him to be the most productive.

Statistically, 59 other CBs had more productive seasons than Tramon. I think it is fair to assume some of them had to play against #1 receivers. Tramon had another underwhelming year. Packer Nation needs to wake up to the fact that his time may have come and gone.


Jennings plays the slot, when we have 3 or more WR on the field. Normally, when healthy if we have 1 or 2 WR, Jennings is on the field. On the defense, when we have 2 CB, Hayward is not. He might grow into the position and become like Woodson who did play CB when we had 2 and moved to the slot when the 3rd CB was brought in, like Jennings.

Right now, If I had to give one of our CB no help in coverage, it would probably be Shields. Not because he can cover better, but because he has more ability to recover if he makes a mistake. Tramon has always been best when he has help over the top, so he can play tighter at the line, and trail technique and not have to worry about the deep routes. He has difficulty when he gives space at the line.

Hayward is still a question mark. Much like Tramon was in his early years before he grew into the spot. He showed promise as the NB.
QCHuskerFan  
#35 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 12:10:58 PM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post

Right now, If I had to give one of our CB no help in coverage, it would probably be Shields. Not because he can cover better, but because he has more ability to recover if he makes a mistake. Tramon has always been best when he has help over the top, so he can play tighter at the line, and trail technique and not have to worry about the deep routes. He has difficulty when he gives space at the line.

Hayward is still a question mark. Much like Tramon was in his early years before he grew into the spot. He showed promise as the NB.


I agree so much with most of what you say here. I am not saying Heyward is the best we have. But I am saying Williams may be the worst. Or at least the most likely to decline further.

Williams has had 2 down years. Is it a coincidence that those 2 years have been without Collins? Maybe Nick allowed Tramon to be better than he really was?
doddpower  
#36 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 12:34:50 PM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
Williams has had 2 down years. Is it a coincidence that those 2 years have been without Collins? Maybe Nick allowed Tramon to be better than he really was?


Of course he did. Great players make everyone around them much better. It still doesn't mean one isn't a good player, but playing with truly great players just makes everyone look better.

Packers_Finland  
#37 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 3:06:13 PM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
Do you really need to watch every single snap to see that Hayward was not the 3rd best CB in the ENTIRE NFL? He was the 3rd best CB on this team. Thus being the NB. He had his shot while Shields was down and guess what. He didn't keep the #2 spot. Sammy took it back.

These guys, write trying to justify their site, yes they have interesting articles, but they are not the bible. If they knew that much, they would not be working on a website, they would have a job for a NFL team. Hayward, had the easiest job of our CB, he is surrounded by more help. I'll take the expertise of the coached of the Packers, over some geeks trying to make their site seem valid.


I don't know what games you were watching if you don't think Hayward had a better season than Tramon. The reason he didn't get the "#2 spot" is because we use nickel most of the time anyway and we get the most done with Hayward in the slot. Tramon and Sam may be better on the outside than Casey but that's just differing skill sets. It's why we put Clay Matthews at OLB and not ILB ya know?

So, because Hayward staying as the "#3 guy" does not mean our coaching staff believed he's inferior to Sam or Tramon, you don't have a single thing to support the opinion that Hayward wasn't our best CB this year.

I don't know if I needed to, but I did watch all of our snaps from all of our games this season. Hayward was our best CB. I don't know exactly how good he was compared to other CBs in the league though, but that's why I read that site. One of the things that make me trust them is that after watching games, and then looking at the grades they give our players, I agree with them.
nerdmann  
#38 Posted : Friday, January 18, 2013 3:13:22 PM(UTC)
Nerve damage heals very slowly. Tramon should be back to 100% this coming year.
blueleopard  
#39 Posted : Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:23:31 PM(UTC)
The Dom Capers defense is known as an attacking 3-4, but I've never seen anybody but Clay Matthews and Charles Woodson attack anybody.
doddpower  
#40 Posted : Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:27:45 PM(UTC)
It's funny how talented teams seem to have more 'attitude'. The way I see it, bring in more talent and the attitude comes with it. The desired "attitude" is often a part of a great players game.
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