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Offline JustJeff  
#16 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 6:29:14 AM(UTC)

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dfosterf said: Go to Quoted Post
Show me the hole that the incompetent backs should have ran through the last 4 years. I submit that there has been no hole. Mike McCarthy is pulling a Dick Cheney. He will re-invent the friggin' hole he says he has, and he don't even have that.


This is not my work. It is from a member in my home forum. It is the perfect example of how NOT to run a stretch play. Enjoy.

" said: Go to Quoted Post
UserPostedImage
Trips left against Nickel defense. DJ Williams motions from the left and looks like he's going to go across. Goes to H when no one motions with him.
UserPostedImage
See him at H and Crabtree lined up at WR.
UserPostedImage
Land and Sitton go for the DTs while Crabtree blocks down on the man on him. Bulaga and Williams pull right. Saturday and Newhouse go to backer. 4 players in the box no accounted for yet. Really only 3 because that backside DE isn't going to do anything.
UserPostedImage
The pitch is off and everyone is looking for a block or hit their mark already. Jones comes into the screen as the last player on the right. Safety looks like he's in position to make the play.
UserPostedImage
Bulaga takes out an unblocked defender (#4), Crabtree is still on his block, looks like Williams will go after defender #3 and Green will have the safety in open field.
UserPostedImage
And here we go.
UserPostedImage
Williams keeps pushing and there is a possible cutback lane for Green.
UserPostedImage
Williams has his guy and free Saturday can try to make a play on the S.
UserPostedImage
He gets him, Williams on block, and Crabtree on block still but defender #2 (non-playside backer) is free and is in position to make play.
UserPostedImage
And he gets him.


Offline Pack93z  
#17 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 6:34:32 AM(UTC)

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JustJeff... to me, that is more the edge blockers fault for not sealing than it is the backs fault on that example. Williams allowed the defender the get outside his shoulder and hold edge contain. This forces the back to stay flat and wait for something as a cutback lane to form.. poorly executed blocking. My opinion from those angles.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 4/5/2013(UTC)
Offline JustJeff  
#18 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 6:42:04 AM(UTC)

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UserPostedImage
Williams keeps pushing and there is a possible cutback lane for Green.

This is a perfect example of how Brandon Jackson ran the stretch and why he never developed into a bell cow back he could have been.

Guys who got by with speed in college sometimes find it hard to learn to be patient. When we run an outside stretch, Green has to be more patient, has to read his blocks better and - most importantly - has to have the vision to see the cutback lanes. That is the bread-and-butter of the zbs. You take your short gains, but when a cutback presents itself, plant the foot and go.

On this play, Williams is engaged and has inside position, driving the LB toward the sideline. Crabtree has the inside sealed. Green's read at this point is to cut it back inside. If Green took it inside if Williams he has open field vs a safety who is eight yards high and inside. This was a HUGE play that didn't happen.
Offline Pack93z  
#19 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 6:54:07 AM(UTC)

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Pop ahead to frames in these stills.. that cutback lane was filled.. this is not a great example of a missed opportunity by a back.. if anything it illustrates:

*A line that gets pushed back at the point of attack
* Poor edge blocking by the Packers
* And yes, a back that was too patient and didn't cut it up and take the minimal gain that might have been there.

UserPostedImage
thanks Post received 1 applause.
DoddPower on 4/5/2013(UTC)
Offline JustJeff  
#20 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 7:13:08 AM(UTC)

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Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
Pop ahead to frames in these stills.. that cutback lane was filled.. this is not a great example of a missed opportunity by a back.. if anything it illustrates:

*A line that gets pushed back at the point of attack
* Poor edge blocking by the Packers
* And yes, a back that was too patient and didn't cut it up and take the minimal gain that might have been there.

UserPostedImage

That still shows that Green has discovered he isn't getting to the edge. At that point, he's sitting high with his weight back, of course the hole is filled. Jeff freakin' Saturday is outside by then [laughing]

UserPostedImage
Williams has not yet engaged. The linebacker is two yards upfield. Williams correctly moves upfield. If he aims for an outside seal, he surrenders his inside shoulder. By the time he gets on the linebacker, he takes him the only angle he can. If you want to fault Williams for being outrun, I can agree. However, he executed a block that gave Green a seam, which Green didn't have the patience to see, much less take.

What is most telling in the stills is Green's gate. He's full throttle for the edge from the start. Great backs have a habit of running 3/4 speed while using their eyes and explode into the hole as it opens. Vision is everything.

Offline Pack93z  
#21 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 7:15:25 AM(UTC)

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The attached image is where the play is truly broken down.. forces the back to make a major cut and really preventing the back from exploiting the edge quicker.. then Williams can't keep the edge and allows flow inside and over the top to close the play down.

There is no way that defender should have gotten that far up field.. again failure this is not a good example of a back blowing a play.. it was littered with problems from the snap. The back had to use vital time and vision just to avoid the immediate penetration into the backfield.
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Offline Pack93z  
#22 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 7:23:12 AM(UTC)

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JustJeff said: Go to Quoted Post
That still shows that Green has discovered he isn't getting to the edge. At that point, he's sitting high with his weight back, of course the hole is filled. Jeff freakin' Saturday is outside by then [laughing]

UserPostedImage
Williams has not yet engaged. The linebacker is two yards upfield. Williams correctly moves upfield. If he aims for an outside seal, he surrenders his inside shoulder. By the time he gets on the linebacker, he takes him the only angle he can. If you want to fault Williams for being outrun, I can agree. However, he executed a block that gave Green a seam, which Green didn't have the patience to see, much less take.

What is most telling in the stills is Green's gate. He's full throttle for the edge from the start. Great backs have a habit of running 3/4 speed while using their eyes and explode into the hole as it opens. Vision is everything.



If Williams holds the edge even then.. Green still can run off this outside shoulder and still have a one on one with the safety along the sideline.. but Williams fails to hold the edge.. forcing Green to break off momentum and start looking for a cutback.. again, I think he should have cut it up and taken what he could get, maybe a small gain. But again, properly blocked the Packers had the numbers and matchups to make that play pop off the edge.. piss poor execution (or very possibly communication in blocking pickups prior to the snap) in blocking that prevented the edge from being obtained.

That is how I see it from these angles.
Offline nerdmann  
#23 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 10:08:03 AM(UTC)

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Green was learning to see those things better as the season went on imo. He was learning from Cedric.
Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#24 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 12:25:20 PM(UTC)

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JustJeff said: Go to Quoted Post
This is not my work. It is from a member in my home forum. It is the perfect example of how NOT to run a stretch play. Enjoy.





Biggest problem with this play is that is never should have been run against that defensive formation. If that play was to get blocked correctly, it would leave DJ leading for Green at an unblocked FS. The problem is the MLB (#3) is already lined up play side of Saturday who would be responsible for blocking him. There is no way without a major mistake by the MLB, that Saturday or ANY C would be able to beat that MLB to the point of attack.

The result of that is DJ ends up having to block a LB instead of the safety as designed. DJ is not pushing his block outside. The defender is taking DJ outside to block the edge and force the cutback. Crabtree actually does a pretty good job considering his is single blocking a DE. But that DE is able to play off the block to make the play on the cutback.

I can't blame this on the Line or RB. The play was dead before it started. The play should have been checked to something else. The perfect play against it would have been to fake the toss and roll Rodgers out, have Jones come down like he did to block, only release upfield running past the crashing FS. With nobody behind him for help.
Offline wpr  
#25 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 12:44:04 PM(UTC)

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PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
Biggest problem with this play is that is never should have been run against that defensive formation. If that play was to get blocked correctly, it would leave DJ leading for Green at an unblocked FS. The problem is the MLB (#3) is already lined up play side of Saturday who would be responsible for blocking him. There is no way without a major mistake by the MLB, that Saturday or ANY C would be able to beat that MLB to the point of attack.

The result of that is DJ ends up having to block a LB instead of the safety as designed. DJ is not pushing his block outside. The defender is taking DJ outside to block the edge and force the cutback. Crabtree actually does a pretty good job considering his is single blocking a DE. But that DE is able to play off the block to make the play on the cutback.

I can't blame this on the Line or RB. The play was dead before it started. The play should have been checked to something else. The perfect play against it would have been to fake the toss and roll Rodgers out, have Jones come down like he did to block, only release upfield running past the crashing FS. With nobody behind him for help.


WHAT!!!??? And be accused of being a stat whore trying to break Favre's records? [aiee]

There is no way Aaron Rodgers is falling for that trap. [-(
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DoddPower on 4/5/2013(UTC), PackFanWithTwins on 4/5/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#26 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 2:36:35 PM(UTC)

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wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
WHAT!!!??? And be accused of being a stat whore trying to break Favre's records? [aiee]

There is no way Aaron Rodgers is falling for that trap. [-(


Run it to the other side. Or dump it off for less than 20 yards.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#27 Posted : Friday, April 5, 2013 4:07:33 PM(UTC)

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It doesn't seem like the safety is crashing until the hand off has been made. I lean toward the idea that the failure is mainly Williams in not getting the outside seal. Green would have had a better shot if Williams had set up one step farther out and that LB cuts inside him. I don't think the play was designed for Williams to take the safety. The LB is the most immediate threat, and if Williams doesn't take him, there is nobody else remotely in position. A center younger and faster than Saturday would have gotten around the corner in time and then you have the long gain - assuming the playside corner who you can't see doesn't come over and stop it.

The fault here is the whole ZBS scheme which relies on about 8 things happening to perfection for a play to work, and then only if nobody on the D makes and above average play. I wish we just had road graders in there who could at least get the runners to the second level, and be better pass blockers also.
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dfosterf on 4/14/2013(UTC)
Offline dfosterf  
#28 Posted : Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:38:06 PM(UTC)

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Graders. Real graders. Yes, that.

Can you believe these guys were upset when James Jones commented upon them?

As a unit, they should have been apologetic.

THAT's the kind of shit I hate nowadays.

Colledge SUCKED, btw.
Offline PackerTraxx  
#29 Posted : Monday, April 15, 2013 7:32:12 AM(UTC)

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I lean to the graders also. Mainly because of the field we play on, grass(sort of) and cold climate. On the other hand the Super Bowl is warm climate usually on turf, so speed and a fast game can have an advantage.
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