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Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Sunday, April 7, 2013 5:28:08 PM(UTC)
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Packers wrote:
Murphy Takes 5 is a monthly column written by President and CEO Mark Murphy. On the first Saturday of every month, Mark will write about a topic of interest to Packers fans and the organization, ...

often hear from fans who are disappointed that we aren’t more active in free agency. I know it can be frustrating for them to see other teams adding free agents - and receiving “A” grades from the media. The reality, though, is that championships are not won in March. The Eagles’ “dream team” from two years ago is a good example of the risks involved with signing high-priced free agents. Free agency can certainly play a role in helping teams improve (Charles Woodson and Ryan Pickett are good examples of recent free agents who have played key roles for us), but history shows that teams that focus on drafting, developing and extending the contracts of their core players are more likely to have sustained success.

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Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#2 Posted : Sunday, April 7, 2013 7:52:49 PM(UTC)
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ProFootballTalk wrote:
Packers CEO Mark Murphy realizes that a gap currently exists between the his team and the 49ers.  But that hasn't prompted the Packers to make bold moves in free agency, even as the Niners have traded for receiver Anquan Boldin and signed cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha. “Look at the teams who have done that,' Murphy tells
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Offline wpr  
#3 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 5:53:35 AM(UTC)
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meh. I get so tired of the chest thumping they do when they don't pick up anyone of quality as a FA. I've said it before it is not either/or. Either pick up 16 FAs at a cost of $100 ea or don't get any at all.

Murphy even points out Woodson and Pickett as being an integral part of the SB team so history PROVES picking up a FA every once in a while fills in the gaps that you can't complete via the draft.
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So, when you watch the NFL Draft on Thursday, April 25 (in prime time for the third straight year), know that it’s the best way to improve our team.
but it is not the only way.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 7:03:44 AM(UTC)
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There's two ways of looking at this: One is that we have such an outstanding winning record the past few seasons, most of the Thompson era, so they must be doing it the best way, etc. the other is that Thompson, McCarthy, ALL of us got incredibly lucky that Aaron Rodgers turned out to be so absolutely super, and without him or if he had even just been a normal good QB, the team would stink. I kinda go back and forth on this. In the past, I was always opposed to signing other people's star free agents for the big money. On the other hand, you look what some other teams have done, and you look up and down this Packer roster, it's shaky at best if you get beyond Rodgers and Matthews and maybe a couple of receivers who arguably are what they are because of Rodgers.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#5 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 7:18:23 AM(UTC)
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Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

Player decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team overstocked at the position?
Coach philosophy change?


And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#6 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 7:33:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

Player decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team overstocked at the position?
Coach philosophy change?


And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.



Obviously it's all about the money. Most of those guys signing big contracts with new teams, you can't dispute that they are good. You just have the question of are they worth what they command for salary? The law of supply and demand says yes, but it's kinda like the kid with a belly ache after buying out the candy store - is enjoying the candy worth the pain? I really don't know - I'm conflicted on this issue.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#7 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 7:37:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Obviously it's all about the money. Most of those guys signing big contracts with new teams, you can't dispute that they are good. You just have the question of are they worth what they command for salary? The law of supply and demand says yes, but it's kinda like the kid with a belly ache after buying out the candy store - is enjoying the candy worth the pain? I really don't know - I'm conflicted on this issue.


Obviously? How is this obvious? Do you think Greg Jennings was going to come back even if the Packers matched the Vikings offer dollar for dollar? Wrong. He made it clear he wanted to be the focal point of the offense, something he couldn't be at Green Bay because of all of the weapons. So, no, it is not obvious.

There are many factors into this, it is not obvious and it is not clear cut. Heck, if it were so obvious and clear cut, we wouldn't have a discussion, haha.
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Offline wpr  
#8 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 8:34:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

Player decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team overstocked at the position?
Coach philosophy change?


And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.


Just because a team doesn't want a player back does not mean that he is old, broke down or worthless.

There are a lot of reasons players move on.

The team wants a player to move on.
1. The team wants to go with a youth movement.
a) #2 player may well not be as good as the one being allowed to leave but
    1) Player #2 has growth potential
    2) The money difference for the performance difference does not justify paying player #1 the money.

b) The team is so lousy that they don't want to spend the money for player #1 and still finish last.
2. Conflict between player and management.
3. Changing in coaching/schemes.
4. Ownership is stupid.
5. Injury or age concerns


The player wants to move on.

a) Change in coaching/schemes.
b) Wants to be a more noticeable player on a team.
c) Money!!!
d) Wants to move to a contending team.
e) Wants to move to a better organization.
f) Wants to move to a team closer to his off season home.
g) Wants to "punish"/show up former team.

Just like you think we assume that we are playing "Madden" and think players are interchangeable (Which we don't) you appear to assume that the only FAs that GB can sign are the ones that will cost them $100 million and tie up their resources for 20 years and don't perform at all for the entire duration of their contracts. (Which is not the case.) Even if they do overpay for a quality player for a couple of years but win the SB, it would be worth it.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#9 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 9:19:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
Just because a team doesn't want a player back does not mean that he is old, broke down or worthless.

There are a lot of reasons players move on.

The team wants a player to move on.
1. The team wants to go with a youth movement.
a) #2 player may well not be as good as the one being allowed to leave but
    1) Player #2 has growth potential
    2) The money difference for the performance difference does not justify paying player #1 the money.

b) The team is so lousy that they don't want to spend the money for player #1 and still finish last.
2. Conflict between player and management.
3. Changing in coaching/schemes.
4. Ownership is stupid.
5. Injury or age concerns


The player wants to move on.

a) Change in coaching/schemes.
b) Wants to be a more noticeable player on a team.
c) Money!!!
d) Wants to move to a contending team.
e) Wants to move to a better organization.
f) Wants to move to a team closer to his off season home.
g) Wants to "punish"/show up former team.

Just like you think we assume that we are playing "Madden" and think players are interchangeable (Which we don't) you appear to assume that the only FAs that GB can sign are the ones that will cost them $100 million and tie up their resources for 20 years and don't perform at all for the entire duration of their contracts. (Which is not the case.) Even if they do overpay for a quality player for a couple of years but win the SB, it would be worth it.


Can you actually read what I said in context and then respond? You quoted me, but with all your assumptions and words you put into my mouth, you clearly have me confused with someone else. Thank you.

For the sake of discussion. Simply because a player is not resigned, that does not mean he is worthless. Not sure where that came from. Anyhow. No one said "you" (general term) think players are interchangeable. There is no denying that often times we read how this player was so great on their team, the Packers should sign him to boost their level of play. If the player doesn't perform similarly to how they did on their previous team, they are blasted as a WASTE and Ted Thompson is blasted for being STUPID with the Packers money.

I have said numerous times that if the Packers are one or two players away from being as close to a "sure bet" Super Bowl contender, they should indeed overspend to get said player/s. It's about winning championships, as we can all agree upon.

Pulling the trigger on higher risk free agents is something Ron Wolf did better than Thompson, in my opinion.
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Offline wpr  
#10 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 9:33:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

implies that the player must not be worthwhile. Silence on your part to contend with their statements also implies your agreement.



Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.


implies (perhaps unfairly but then you do not expound to clarify.) that you believe most fans do not distinguish between schemes and teams.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Can you actually read what I said in context and then respond? You quoted me, but with all your assumptions and words you put into my mouth, you clearly have me confused with someone else. Thank you.

it is not my intention to put words into your mouth. By reading your posts I am drawing a conclusion. Perhaps I am wrong in my conclusions but I have noticed over the years others do the same. Perhaps we need more clarity from you.
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Offline DoddPower  
#11 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 1:06:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.


Actually, that's not true in the new Madden, at least in Connected Careers. Player ratings are determined by pre-set schemes that are set when establishing ones coach. I still don't think it makes much difference, but it definitely affects how the players' overall rating is viewed. Someone hasn't played much Madden 13! heh heh.

Offline QCHuskerFan  
#12 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 1:22:32 PM(UTC)
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This is perhaps a new way to envision Free Agents. Think of them as recently divorced individuals.

Do they have value? Well, probably not much to their former spouse or they would still be married.

Are they as attractive as they once were? Probably not, due to the laws of nature.

Are they as physically impressive as they once were? No. Next question.

Are they flexible and trainable? Less so than they were a few years ago.

So what is it that makes them more attractive than someone that is younger, in better shape, and not so stuck in their ways?
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#13 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 1:53:29 PM(UTC)
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I have a headache.

This has turned into a strange year in FA. There are still quite a few really good players who haven't been signed.

The longer they sit un-signed, the lower the price will go for them.

Problem right now is The Packers need to get The Rodgers and Mathews deals done just to see who they can afford, if they so choose to go after a player.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#14 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 2:27:04 PM(UTC)
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Building through the draft, if done right is a way to make a team that is year in and year out good. That can win the division every year and make the playoffs. But to win past that, the team needs something more. Luck which is what hit us in 2010. Or adding the key players to positions that haven't been meet through the draft.

They don't need to be top FA names. I think resigning Cullen Jenkins would have been a good move, added depth and a veteran at the position that could help the development of the youth. We have seen how Woodson, helped with the development of Tramon, and Nick and others. Cullen could have done similar with our young DEs.

I see a similar situation in Madison with the Badgers. Barry had the team setup where it would be competetive yearly, and Beilema reaped the rewards of that, but the team needs something added on top of what Barry established for them to be considered legit title contenders.

The packers are going to be good as long as Rodgers doesn't get hurt. In order to make that into SB, we are going to need the right FAs added.
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Offline gotarace  
#15 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 2:43:38 PM(UTC)
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I have two words for everyone saying a free agent can't make a difference on a football team... build through the draft...bah bah bah...Reggie White. Coupled with the trade for Brett Favre... We went from pretenders to contenders overnight. I'm old enough to have suffered through the 1970's-1980's and adding 2 quality players turned the Packers franchise completely around.
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Offline wpr  
#16 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 2:51:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: QCHuskerFan Go to Quoted Post
This is perhaps a new way to envision Free Agents. Think of them as recently divorced individuals.

Do they have value? Well, probably not much to their former spouse or they would still be married.

Are they as attractive as they once were? Probably not, due to the laws of nature.

Are they as physically impressive as they once were? No. Next question.

Are they flexible and trainable? Less so than they were a few years ago.

So what is it that makes them more attractive than someone that is younger, in better shape, and not so stuck in their ways?


I can't say you analogy is accurate at all but if you want to use it to help you see the bigger picture,

A 30 year old high end model is still more desirable than even though she is older, more set in her ways and less flexible than a 14 yr old pixy gymnast.

The point is as PFWT points out that a key FA helps bridge the gap and puts the team over the top into SB contention. Ever watch the guys spin plates? It is pretty hard to keep all the plates going without one of them falling. Building solely and exclusively through the draft is like spinning plates. You run back and forth all the time. There are not 22 positions, not 25 positions (incl ST) to fill there are at least 40 offense and defensive positions plus the 3 ST to fill. You can't do that with drafts alone. Injuries occur. Miscalculations on the quality of a 20 yr old. The 3-4 year contracts expire. The fickleness of the draft itself. (Lack of a player at a specific position at the time you need him.) A lot of things can and do go wrong. Some of it can be made up via the low value street FA but not all of it. Picking up a couple of decent FA that the team keeps for 2-4 years helps fill in the gaps that you can't do in the draft.

This is much more apparent on a team that takes the BPA. GB took WR in the 2-3 round for several years in a row. Because of that they didn't take high quality defensive players. The lack of quality showed over the past couple of years. They load up on defensive players and the OL looks like crap. (Mainly due to injuries but there wasn't the quality depth that they needed.)
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Online earthquake  
#17 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 4:18:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gotarace Go to Quoted Post
I have two words for everyone saying a free agent can't make a difference on a football team... build through the draft...bah bah bah...Reggie White. Coupled with the trade for Brett Favre... We went from pretenders to contenders overnight. I'm old enough to have suffered through the 1970's-1980's and adding 2 quality players turned the Packers franchise completely around.


I see the Reggie White thing brought up every once in a while, but lets be totally honest here. The signing of Reggie White is probably one of if not the best free agent signing in the history of the league. You simply do not see Reggie White type players in free agency any more.

The closest I can really think in terms of signing a FA and turning a team around in recent memory would be the Saints signing Drew Brees, who was coming off an injury and known as an above average QB at the time. It wasn't until he start playing with Sean Payton in NO that he became an elite player. Even then, this is an extremely rare move for a team to find a legit franchise QB in free agency.

I can't think of anyone who had the impact that Reggie had in terms of being an established, dominate player, that went to another team via FA and continued the same dominance for any extended period of time like Reggie White did.

So I don't really think its a valid argument.

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Offline wpr  
#18 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 4:42:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
I see the Reggie White thing brought up every once in a while, but lets be totally honest here. The signing of Reggie white is probably one of if not the best free agent signing in the history of the league. You simply do not see Reggie White type players in free agency any more.

The closest I can really think in terms of signing a FA and turning a team around in recent memory would be the Saints signing Drew Brees, who was coming off an injury and known as an above average QB at the time. It wasn't until he start playing with Sean Payton in NO that he became an elite player. Even then, this is an extremely rare move for a team to find a legit franchise QB in free agency.

I can't think of anyone who had the impact that Reggie had in terms of being an established, dominate player, that went to another team via FA and continued the same dominance for any extended period of time like Reggie White did.

So I don't really think its a valid argument.


Sure it is valid. It happened. Just because Reggie is a rare quality talent doesn't diminish it at all.

I don't expect GB to sign someone of that caliber every year. Signing a decent quality player every once in a while would be nice.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#19 Posted : Monday, April 8, 2013 4:45:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Obviously? How is this obvious? Do you think Greg Jennings was going to come back even if the Packers matched the Vikings offer dollar for dollar? Wrong. He made it clear he wanted to be the focal point of the offense, something he couldn't be at Green Bay because of all of the weapons. So, no, it is not obvious.

There are many factors into this, it is not obvious and it is not clear cut. Heck, if it were so obvious and clear cut, we wouldn't have a discussion, haha.


OK, MOSTLY about the money hahaha. I was just listening to J Lo sing - I guess she agrees with you. "It's not about the money money money .... "

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:12:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: gotarace Go to Quoted Post
I have two words for everyone saying a free agent can't make a difference on a football team... build through the draft...bah bah bah...Reggie White. Coupled with the trade for Brett Favre... We went from pretenders to contenders overnight. I'm old enough to have suffered through the 1970's-1980's and adding 2 quality players turned the Packers franchise completely around.


I don't think anyone has said a free agent CAN'T make a difference. I think what is being said is the RISK vs REWARD is not favorable, thus, not worth the extra money you end up paying out. At least, that's what I have been saying from the start. And even I think there's a time and place to overpay for a player.

So, I have two words for people who keep assuming and generalizing so extreme ... BITE ME!

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Offline play2win  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 5:58:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson have said something similar about star free agents. If they are so good, why did the team that knows them best not resign them?

Player decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team decide it was time to move on? Why?
Team overstocked at the position?
Coach philosophy change?


And just because Player A was a stud with Team A, it doesn't mean Player A will achieve similar success with Team B. The thinking that it does, is how the "Madden" line of thought was coined. In Madden, players are ranked by arbitrary (okay, maybe not arbitrary but have you really looked at those rankings?) numerical values. You can yank a player and pluck him into your team and he'll perform the same as he did on the previous team. Madden doesn't take into account schemes or anything like that in its rankings. Much like fans fail to do as well.


Well, I think Wolf and Thompson have made their major blunders in some of their decision making regarding this kind of top talent. Wayne Simmons, Desmond Howard and Cullen Jenkins. Those are three players that should have been re-signed and were not. IMO, those losses cost us SBs.

I gotta say, MAN DO I LOVE THIS THREAD! There is some good stuff in here. It took me this long to jump in because I've been so burned about not adding a single top talent at a real need position. I believe our real need positions outweigh the number of draft picks we have. Also, figure only half of your picks become really solid contributors, if you are lucky. So, how much better will, say, 4 draftees make us? If we're lucky?

Murphy is towing the company line established by Thompson, who I believe might be a bit too rigid with this stance. Sometimes great players are let go simply because of the cap situation of their previous team. We could have signed a great player to help us get better. Now, we have to count solely on the draft, and possibly 2nd or 3rd tier FAs signings after the draft.

I'll add, just because you draft them, it doesn't mean they are automatically better than other players. Thompson is paying both Finley and Jones some bigger cash than their performances dictated, in the hopes they will realize the potential he drafted them on. Those are wasted dollars IMO.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 6:07:46 AM(UTC)
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Desmond Howard chose to leave beacuse Oakland said he'd be on the field as a WR, something the Packers didn't and wouldn't offer.
Cullen Jenkins, christ, I am NOT going over that one again.
Wayne Simmons, I don't recall 100%, but I think he had major attitude issues in the locker room and that is why they parted ways. It wasn't that bad of a decision, since he wasn't that good.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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play2win on 4/9/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 6:42:14 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I don't think anyone has said a free agent CAN'T make a difference. I think what is being said is the RISK vs REWARD is not favorable, thus, not worth the extra money you end up paying out. At least, that's what I have been saying from the start. And even I think there's a time and place to overpay for a player.

So, I have two words for people who keep assuming and generalizing so extreme ... BITE ME!

Big Grin


I see the risk no greater than hoping a player you drafted 5 years ago will get automatically get better by paying him a top 6 in the NFL salary for his position.

I believe both are about 50/50 in terms of landing a top performer. Remove the FA 50/50, and you have to hit at a higher level on your draft picks. How did our #1 picks over the last 3 years fare last year? Our #2's? Over the past 3 years, we had only -3- players that made major contributions to our 2012 season, selected rounds 1-3: Hayward, Cobb and Burnett. 4 if you count Mike Neal, who was suspended for 4 of our games last year. Those were all important games for playoff seeding, and he missed them all.

3 out of 9 players selected... over 3 years.

I understand injuries greatly affected this. Bulaga lasted till week 9 last season. The only 1st round pick in 3 years to make it through half the season. Take a longer look and injuries really have adversely affected this group of 9 players over the past 3 seasons.

And, this risk is somehow less than a time tested, top performing FA? Is it?

There was a great reward that came along with Eugene Robinson, Andre Rison, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, Reggie White, Ryan Pickett and Charles Woodson.
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yooperfan on 4/9/2013(UTC), wpr on 4/9/2013(UTC)
Offline TheKanataThrilla  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 7:02:56 AM(UTC)
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Was the Reggie White signing a good move on our part or just lousy management by the Eagles? You don't let a talent like that go. If Rodgers ever became a free agent it would be obvious to me that our GM is not doing our job. White was the best player on his team. You do what you need to do to keep your best player under contract or you trade them for something.
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play2win on 4/9/2013(UTC)
Offline Pack93z  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, April 9, 2013 7:14:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla Go to Quoted Post
Was the Reggie White signing a good move on our part or just lousy management by the Eagles? You don't let a talent like that go. If Rodgers ever became a free agent it would be obvious to me that our GM is not doing our job. White was the best player on his team. You do what you need to do to keep your best player under contract or you trade them for something.


Over the course of the years there have been others.. Julius Peppers comes to mind.. has that put a ring on the Bears fingers? Nnamdi Asomugha was supposed to be a game changer.. in less that a couple years he is a budget value player.

The Packers do dip into the Free Agent market.. last season for example they signed Jeff Saturday to fill a hole.. at a market salary. It didn't work out.. they pursued the center from the Texans, were in it till he decided to return there. Cedric Benson was another player.. neither really worked out they way we hoped..

We are only a month into new league year, we have two or three high dollar contracts in play yet, the draft to play out and a free agent market that still have a abundance of talent available.

I get the angst, especially with the track record overall being less than what fans want, but patience. The grocery cart still has a plenty of room to add players.. unfortunately the Packers are still working on the budget left after locking up Matthews and Rodgers.. maybe Raji as well.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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play2win on 4/9/2013(UTC), QCHuskerFan on 4/9/2013(UTC)
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