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wpr  
#41 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2013 7:53:21 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
I agree with wpr on this.

However, it doesn't mean Sherrod will never be back. Didn't Flanagan need a couple years away? But I think it DEFINITELY means he's not where they want him to be. Good thing we have Bulaga. He's played LT before.

As for RT, I think Newhouse is the logical choice. He struggled at times at LT, but I think he'll be fine on the RT. You're not going up against the defense's best pass rusher on the RT. He'll have to beat out Barclay, Datko and the rookies though.

If Lang can play C, so much the better. I know the Packers love versatility on the line. I think there's gonna be competition there though. Which will be good.


I guess I don't mean he will never play. I am writing him off for this year too. If he does come back (Next year) I do not see them moving him back to LT as long as Bulaga has a good year.
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#42 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2013 10:04:12 PM(UTC)
Until proven otherwise, the word of McCarthy and the actions of Thompson in not drafting an O Lineman in the first three rounds supports the idea that Sherrod will be healthy. It's still not a bad idea, however, to put him at the less pressure-packed RT spot. Same for the possibility the RT starter is Newhouse or the even less likely prospect it is Barclay, Datko, or one of the rookies.

The reason for switching Sitton also is that it is smart to put your two best run blockers side by side. Also, our left side/a defense's right side is where you most often find the top flight pass rushers. Often it is a good idea to run the ball straight at that kind of guy.
nerdmann  
#43 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2013 10:18:24 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
Until proven otherwise, the word of McCarthy and the actions of Thompson in not drafting an O Lineman in the first three rounds supports the idea that Sherrod will be healthy. It's still not a bad idea, however, to put him at the less pressure-packed RT spot. Same for the possibility the RT starter is Newhouse or the even less likely prospect it is Barclay, Datko, or one of the rookies.

The reason for switching Sitton also is that it is smart to put your two best run blockers side by side. Also, our left side/a defense's right side is where you most often find the top flight pass rushers. Often it is a good idea to run the ball straight at that kind of guy.


McCarthy's word has been proven otherwise many, many times. Particularly when it comes to player injuries.
Zero2Cool  
#44 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2013 10:32:36 PM(UTC)
nerdmann said: Go to Quoted Post
McCarthy's word has been proven otherwise many, many times. Particularly when it comes to player injuries.


No head coach is going to give you exact injuries. You should watch other head coaches post game conferences some time. It's not a Mike McCarthy thing, it's a coach thing.
all_about_da_packers  
#45 Posted : Friday, May 3, 2013 10:56:09 PM(UTC)
Pack93z: Here is my issue with Campen - how do we measure exactly how competent he is?

When Mike McCarthy was hired, he hired Jagodszinsky as his OC. Jags was hired away from Atlanta, where he apparently had learned some secrets through recorded practices of teaching cut-blocking and zone blocking from Alex Gibbs. I remember it was widely known that Jags would be helping teach the zone blocking scheme, taking a lead role alongside Campen to implement the unique methods he learned from Gibbs.

Then Jags left to become coach at BC, and Philbin was hired as OC. I believe it was Dunne or Silverstein who mentioned (in response to wondering how big a loss was Philbin) that Philbin was missed most in thoroughly prepping the offense during the week for the looks they'd see from opposing defenses. Apparently, Philbin was thorough in going through the different formations that the offense could see on a Sunday; however, other than this it was said (in that article/chat) that Philbin spent most of the practices during the week with the O-line group. So, apparently Philbin had a hand in managing Campen's position group, as well.

Now McCarthy tells us he always thought Lang was best suited to RG. It's true; a while back (after Lang's rookie season) in an after-draft interview, I vividly remember Mike McCarthy saying how he thought Lang was best suited to RG, but other position coaches thought he had a chance at LG or even T. I remember this because it was a rare glimpse of how Mike McCarthy conducted business - a much more consensus approach as opposed to a "I say X, so X it is" type of approach; it was some unique insight into MM's management of his staff.

This move to Lang at RG, coupled with MM's comments about how he (Note: not a position coach like Campen, but "he" as in McCarthy himself) thought Lang was best suited to RG makes me again wonder how much say Campen has in the matter.

Frankly, throughout his tenure it seems Campen has not been given sole responsibility of the O-line unit. That either means Campen's an incompetent fool (which makes me wonder why McCarthy keeps Campen around, because he hired Campen on the suggestion of Larry Beightol; there was no prior history between Campen/MM), or frankly Mike McCarthy has stripped Campen of any ability to do his job (in which case, Campen is the "Yes" man who Mike McCarthy is happy to have around). I agree talent itself is not the sole issue of our problems.

But history makes it really difficult to apportion blame given that it seems like everyone and their mother has a say in our O-linemen coaching. That's not to say Campen is not a problem (his lack of seeming independence is worrisome), but I'm beginning to wonder if the finger should not be pointed at McCarthy directly for more than simply keeping Campen.
buckeyepackfan  
#46 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 1:04:33 AM(UTC)
Just set the line, AND KEEP THE SAME 5 GUYS AT THE SAME 5 POSITIONS!!!

I'm fine with the moves as long as they don't decide midway through the pre-seaon that it's not working and start flipping guys around.

Know who your starters are, know who your backups are.

If and when an injury occurs, plug in the backup guy, don't start flipping your starters all over.

"The Jeff Saturday" experiment last year was one of the worst moves Ted has made.

Dulak  
#47 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 2:46:35 AM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
1 out of 12 drafted isn't bad I guess.. but then of course looking just at one single player does not make a unit either.

So lets look at those stats.. (now some of that is also related to play calling as well)

2012 51 sacks allowed, 31st in the league. - Bear 44 25th
2011 41 sacks allowed 21st in the league - Bears 49 27th
2010 38 sacks allowed 19th in the league - Bears 56 32nd
2009 51 sacks allowed 32nd in the league - Bears 35 19th

I am pretty damn sure that is failing to develop a good unit ... about par with the Bears and I am pretty damn sure they shit canned a coach or two in that tenure.

13 lineman drafted in his tenure.. 1 Pro Bowl appearance.. I will stick by my statement. That goodness Rodgers is durable and can throw on the run... unlike Cutler.


nice post there -

as far as our players - ... lang appears to be a decent guard; but didn't do so well at tackle ... Im really not sure how well bulaga is at tackle - I thought he wasn't that great but I cant quite remember. Its like we have a bunch of guys that make decent or great guards/center - but are not that great at tackle. Need the str/speed/arm length and quickness off the line to stop those speed/power rushers ...

I remember those years with Rodgers getting sacked so many times; I didn't realize he got sacked again 51 sacks last year.

His weakness as we pointed out in these forums is Rodgers holding onto that ball for too long ... but why is this? ... his main option is only to pass and Mike McCarthy appeared to have difficulty creating short passing plays; or screens ... and to top it off all of those years we have never had a running game that was to be respected ... ok we got a few yards but nothing that really got defences worried ... so that usually meant Rodgers had to throw into more coverage.

So as a keyboard coach - If we can implement better blocking (both in the pass and run) and be able to utilize our potential 2 top RB picks and to utilize short passes and screens more ... this may bring Rodgers sack total down; even with subpar Oline just for the fact that we will have options and keep the opposing defences guessing ...


So same Oline guys - but options to short pass or run and Rodgers gets sacked less ...
If only right? ...

QCHuskerFan  
#48 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 5:23:54 AM(UTC)
Pack93z said: Go to Quoted Post
1 out of 12 drafted isn't bad I guess.. but then of course looking just at one single player does not make a unit either.

So lets look at those stats.. (now some of that is also related to play calling as well)

2012 51 sacks allowed, 31st in the league. - Bear 44 25th
2011 41 sacks allowed 21st in the league - Bears 49 27th
2010 38 sacks allowed 19th in the league - Bears 56 32nd
2009 51 sacks allowed 32nd in the league - Bears 35 19th

I am pretty damn sure that is failing to develop a good unit ... about par with the Bears and I am pretty damn sure they shit canned a coach or two in that tenure.

13 lineman drafted in his tenure.. 1 Pro Bowl appearance.. I will stick by my statement. That goodness Rodgers is durable and can throw on the run... unlike Cutler.


Cherry picking stats can prove any argument.

The OL makes up 5/11 of the starters on offense. Has our offense been bad? If half of the offense is coached this poorly, how can it possibly perform? Because our OL is decent.

Can it be better? Absolutely.

Packers had the #9 Passing team last year. Bears were 29th. Rodgers isn't that much better than Cutler.
wpr  
#49 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 5:46:36 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
No head coach is going to give you exact injuries. You should watch other head coaches post game conferences some time. It's not a Mike McCarthy thing, it's a coach thing.


exactly. I am not saying Mike is bad or evil for not disclosing all the minuet details of injuries but since no coach (or GM for that matter) "is going to give you exact injuries" to use your phrase, what Mike has told us thus far is not the whole story.

As to whether or not they drafted an OT in the 1st 3 rounds or not that too is inconclusive of any proof as to the seriousness of Sherrod's injury.
There is plenty of reasons to speculate as to why they made the moves they did or did not make. AS mentioned one of them is that Sherrod may weel come back this year. But it is not the only one.

Ted and Mike might feel that one of the remaining OTs will do an average or adequate job at RT and they did not have a real need.
They might have felt the need at DE and RB was greater than the need at RT.
They may have felt that the players taken represented the BPA and didn't want to pick a OT when there was better value on the board to be had.
Sherrod may in deed recover, next year. And they did not want to invest a high draft pick in 3 OT.
They may have felt the young bucks they picked up in the 4th would be available and fit their needs and they were willing to wait and see before going for an OT.
play2win  
#50 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:26:16 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
I'm trying to think positive about it ... and the only positive I can come up with is ... perhaps Coach Mike is settling on a OL very early ... which I feel would be freaking swell.


It is kind of funny, but, yeah. Seems like he's looking to change what clearly was not working, and decisively acting to establish his change on our OL, before TC.

That is a positive.

Having had a couple of days to think about it, it does make sense. If Sherrod is indeed able to return, it will be better for him to be at RT in transitioning back into the starting lineup. That is one scenario.

Another scenario involves Bakhtiari eventually starting at RT. Tauscher did it as a 7th Round rookie in 2000. Who knows? Maybe Datko has developed enough to legitimately contend for the starting position.

No matter what, if we are not adding any more personnel but what we've drafted or signed UDFA these past 3 seasons, this shift on the line makes sense. Old guard, proven talent on the Left, new blood on the Right.

A third scenario at RT is that Marshall Newhouse puts it all together and wins the job. That would be fine. Maybe he makes that jump in his level of play year 3.

As for Center, I still think Tretter or Patrick Lewis contend there for the starting spot. Ted knew exactly what he was bringing in with Lewis, a 3-time All Big 12 selection at both G and C. He did make a pre-draft visit to GB.

So, given all of this, the line is changing. GOOD! Something had to give there, and maybe these changes and new players challenging to start will help. Regardless, this line is way better without Jeff Saturday. it is already improved.

One other thing of note: this is where Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy can really make their draft & develop philosophy shine. I can see it. We've got some good talent that has been with us now on our OL for the last 2 or 3 seasons. Maybe this is the moment when one or two more (besides Bulaga, Sitton and Lang) of those guys breaks through:

2008 Sitton R4
2009 Lang R4
2010 Bulaga R1 and Newhouse R5
2011 Sherrod R1
2012 Datko R7
2013 Bakhtiari R4 and Tretter R4
DakotaT  
#51 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:34:32 AM(UTC)
I just hope we don't piss away any more years of a future hall of fame first ballot quarterback dicking around with the positions of inadequate offensive lineman. I don't believe Marshall Newhouse and EDS have starting talent for NFL standards and they need to be replaced. I also question Lang's talent level as well, so switching him around constantly cannot be a good thing. We can get buy with Barclay at RT because he is very good at run blocking, but he may need a little help on the field in pass blocking. As for Sherrod, Tretter, and Bacteria - I hope they have the stuff it takes to get into the starting lineup very soon.
play2win  
#52 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:40:09 AM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
Rodgers isn't that much better than Cutler.



Whoooaaaah!

Take THAT BACK! [laughing] [laughing] [laughing]

A ballsy, stupidly ballsy (no harm intended my friend) statement by The QC to start our Saturday...
Pack93z  
#53 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:51:54 AM(UTC)
QCHuskerFan said: Go to Quoted Post
Cherry picking stats can prove any argument.

The OL makes up 5/11 of the starters on offense. Has our offense been bad? If half of the offense is coached this poorly, how can it possibly perform? Because our OL is decent.

Can it be better? Absolutely.

Packers had the #9 Passing team last year. Bears were 29th. Rodgers isn't that much better than Cutler.


Didn't cherry pick.. just grabbed the stats at the heart of the argument. We will just agree to disagree, no I don't think they were a pathetic line.. but they also didn't play up to their talents and year after year struggle in protection reads.

To me, that fall on coaching. You seem to think that isn't the root of the problem. Great.

And yes Rodgers is that much better than Cutler. And the difference isn't in physical talent.. it is in poise, patience and confidence. Cutler's biggest issues exist between the ears and behind the eyes. And it is a vast difference between them. And search my statements on Cutler over the years, this is not a new statement for this thread. [grin1]
Zero2Cool  
#54 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 6:52:08 AM(UTC)
buckeyepackfan said: Go to Quoted Post
Just set the line, AND KEEP THE SAME 5 GUYS AT THE SAME 5 POSITIONS!!!

I'm fine with the moves as long as they don't decide midway through the pre-seaon that it's not working and start flipping guys around.

Know who your starters are, know who your backups are.

If and when an injury occurs, plug in the backup guy, don't start flipping your starters all over.

"The Jeff Saturday" experiment last year was one of the worst moves Ted has made.



Maybe in hindsight, sure, but the Jeff Saturday signing seemed to perk up most Packers fans - link.
Tezzy  
#55 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 7:41:02 AM(UTC)
Easy to just say get better talent for the line to replace the left side. The Packers reality right now is the best talent was on the right side. I have no problem with seeing how this change goes. If you are going to do it, Bulaga and Sitton are about the best combo to try it. Bulaga obviously has plenty of years playing on the left side, and Sitton has good feet and a good enough athlete I won't be surprised if he maintains his level of play. No prediction that it will succeed or fail, but I like the chances for improved line play with this move.
wpr  
#56 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 8:39:03 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Maybe in hindsight, sure, but the Jeff Saturday signing seemed to perk up most Packers fans - link.


I called it a "nice pickup". I did so because I assumed that Ted and Mike checked him out and knew that Saturday still had a lot left in the tank. [palm]
PackerTraxx  
#57 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 8:54:50 AM(UTC)
More times than not, when there are problems across a position, it starts and possibly ends with the position coach.
warhawk  
#58 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 9:04:14 AM(UTC)
Gaycandybacon said: Go to Quoted Post
I was not expecting this. I wanted to see what they had at LT with Bulaga, but now Sitton. I hope they think this will make the team better. My opinion on this is they want to run to the left more.. Best run blockers on the team. And of course want to protect dat franchise. Time to see if Bulaga has what it takes.

I think the Guard change makes sense as well. Bulaga and Sitton have been playing next to each other for a couple of years now. Newhouse has been playing next to Lang.
What I see is the moves allowing the OL to become cohesive quicker than having to get used to the guy next to you. I think moving Bulaga to LT and leaving Lane next to him and having Sitton next to Newhouse or Sherrod would be more radical than what they are doing. Knowing the guy next to you and how you communicate is a huge part of a successful OL and I see these moves allowing that aspect to come along much faster.
I agree Bulaga is the key. If he can perform at a high level and these new RB's make a difference the overall OL play will be much improved and this is obviously the plan moving forward.


steveishere  
#59 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 10:32:21 AM(UTC)
wpr said: Go to Quoted Post
I called it a "nice pickup". I did so because I assumed that Ted and Mike checked him out and knew that Saturday still had a lot left in the tank. [palm]


I'm sure they did check him out. He had a nice year prior and stayed pretty healthy. That's the risk with signing those older vets though. They can just go from a great season to over the cliff in 1 year.
sschind  
#60 Posted : Saturday, May 4, 2013 3:59:29 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, better late than never. Sure, it could have been attempted earlier, but it wasn't. They have got to do what they can from here, regardless of what has happened in the past. It's not ideal, but reality hardly ever is. At least now they have an entire off season and season to grow. I don't think Bulaga will be any worse than Newhouse at LT, and very likely much better. I also think Newhouse has the potential to be a very solid RT and will be much more valuable there than at LT. This move could definitely pay off, but there will be some growing pains.



The only reason it is not ideal is because you are basically admitting that the right side of you line sucks and you are being forced into a drastic move. In reality this might be the ideal thing to do. Of course it might backfire big time as well. Time will tell.

What I don't get all the "should have done it from the beginning" type talk from some people. The beginning of what? As far as I am concerned this is the beginning. The draft is over and we pretty much know who we have to work with so the change was made. It would have been foolish to make the move prior to the draft because, playing the what if game, what if a stud left tackle would have fallen to use or the opportunity to move up to get one would have presented itself. If we had made the move we would have had to unmake it. It could have been done earlier but to me earlier would have been this time last year. It's not a move you make midseason or after training camp starts. You have to give your players the maximum amount of time to adjust and doing it now does that.

The more I think about it the more I like the move. If you are convinced that Sitton and Bulaga are our best linemen, and why wouldn't you be, and you know the players we have to work with why wouldn't you want to have your best guys in the most important positions. Looking at it another way, if you have to have one side of your line be weaker than the other wouldn't you prefer that to be the right side. The only argument I could see against it is if you don't think Bulaga and Sitton on the right side will be better than who we had to begin with.

Maybe some people are having issues because it is a drastic move that reeks of desperation. Its like a double reverse flea flicker. It's a trick play and it makes it seem like we are desperate. Well, according to some people, when it comes to our offensive line we are desperate. I just don't see it like that. I see it as a coaching staff trying to make the best with the players they have to work with.
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