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Offline porky88  
#16 Posted : Thursday, June 20, 2013 11:39:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister Go to Quoted Post
Favre is the 4th best Packer QB.

Compare how they played in the post season when comparing Starr to Favre.

Starr has the highest post season passer rating in the history of the league.

Favre has the most NFCCG chokes in the history of the league.

Starr also played in an era when it was tougher to throw. The rules make it easier on the WRs and the QBs.

So the NFL average for Favre's era was 12.5 higher than it was in Starr's day.

Arnie Herber was farther above average in his day than Favre was. He also has 3 consecutive championships and hold the record for most yards per completion.

If a mediocre QB has 5000 more attempts than everyone else, he should hold every record. Good and bad. That wouldn't make him a better QB.

Favre was a fairly good QB. But he does have 1800 more attempts than the next highest guy on the list and 5000 more attempts than all but 10 QBs in NFL history. The records only prove he threw it more. Not that he threw it better.

It's hard to knock Favre for interceptions and then praise Arnie Herber, who threw 106 interceptions and only 81 touchdowns. He also attempted 1,175 career passes. Favre attempted 10,169 passes. Based on the pattern, Herber would have over 900 interceptions by his 10,169th pass attempt. That's nearly 600 more than Favre's 336.

Comparing the eras (and players) is impossible considering the game was far less complex. Some high school sophomores probably can run a faster 40 than many of the players during that era. Rob Gronkowski also would probably play nose tackle and guard. There are a few exceptions (namely Don Hutson), but that’s why they’re exceptions and not the rule.

Another obstacle is the lack of weight training by the players, and the fact many probably were smokers. Regardless, the biggest omission people make in comparing distant eras to today's age is race relations. Herber won championships in the 30s. Jackie Robinson hadn't even broken through the barrier yet. To recap, the players didn’t train, they weren’t as healthy, and prejudices prevented the league from fielding the best players.

Edited by user Friday, June 21, 2013 1:32:12 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

thanks Post received 2 applause.
gotarace on 6/22/2013(UTC), Mr_Bumpy on 6/22/2013(UTC)
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#17 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 5:17:04 AM(UTC)
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Again in this thread, there is a whole lot of IDIOCY being posted against Favre by some DISGRACES to be called Packer fans.

The guy may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer. He may have shown some stupidity and/or disloyalty and/or whatever at the end of his career, but WHILE HE WAS A PACKER he had a career unparalleled in NFL history. We - including the sh*theads trashing him if they are old enough, had fifteen wonderful years of winning football, thanks in large part to Brett Favre. That far outweighs whatever petty sh*t at the end, and his records for yardage and touchdowns along with the consecutive game streak say that NOBODY in NFL history ever had a better career.

I'll be the first to say Aaron Rodgers is a better player right now than Favre was at his best, and that Rodgers likely will surpass Favre as the greatest in history, but for these sick trolls and sh*theads to deny the undeniable is just plain disgraceful.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#18 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 5:57:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Again in this thread, there is a whole lot of IDIOCY being posted against Favre by some DISGRACES to be called Packer fans.

The guy may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer. He may have shown some stupidity and/or disloyalty and/or whatever at the end of his career, but WHILE HE WAS A PACKER he had a career unparalleled in NFL history. We - including the sh*theads trashing him if they are old enough, had fifteen wonderful years of winning football, thanks in large part to Brett Favre. That far outweighs whatever petty sh*t at the end, and his records for yardage and touchdowns along with the consecutive game streak say that NOBODY in NFL history ever had a better career.

I'll be the first to say Aaron Rodgers is a better player right now than Favre was at his best, and that Rodgers likely will surpass Favre as the greatest in history, but for these sick trolls and sh*theads to deny the undeniable is just plain disgraceful.


I don't think anyone is minimizing how good of a player Brett Favre was. Rather, more so just saying he was good, but he also played more games than most and threw more than most, which is an efficient way to get "all time total" records.

Being extremely durable doesn't mean you were the greatest quarterback in the NFL. It means you were extremely durable and for that, the Packers were immensely lucky.

One gripe against Brett Favre is the post season play. Gun slinging is exciting, but it's not how you should play "win or go home" games and we fans know exactly why.
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thanks Post received 3 applause.
DakotaT on 6/21/2013(UTC), DoddPower on 6/21/2013(UTC), dfosterf on 6/21/2013(UTC)
Offline DakotaT  
#19 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 6:26:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Oh Hell No! Not another anti-Favre diatribe! Nothing against Majkowski, who did a damn good job for the time he played, but BRETT FAVRE IS THE GREATEST PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY, and will be until Aaron Rodgers continues his own greatness long enough to be placed above Favre.



I didn't know you were a slurper too. Favre was great, but he choked too much to be considered the Greatest Player Ever. And when you consider his character, well then that takes him down a few more notches. Brett Favre is the classic big man on campus egomaniac.
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Offline DakotaT  
#20 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 6:32:27 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Again in this thread, there is a whole lot of IDIOCY being posted against Favre by some DISGRACES to be called Packer fans.

The guy may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer. He may have shown some stupidity and/or disloyalty and/or whatever at the end of his career, but WHILE HE WAS A PACKER he had a career unparalleled in NFL history. We - including the sh*theads trashing him if they are old enough, had fifteen wonderful years of winning football, thanks in large part to Brett Favre. That far outweighs whatever petty sh*t at the end, and his records for yardage and touchdowns along with the consecutive game streak say that NOBODY in NFL history ever had a better career.

I'll be the first to say Aaron Rodgers is a better player right now than Favre was at his best, and that Rodgers likely will surpass Favre as the greatest in history, but for these sick trolls and sh*theads to deny the undeniable is just plain disgraceful.


My God are you a sad man. We Packer fans can do with Favre what we want. The guy deserves all his accolades but he also has EARNED all of his criticisms. Brett Favre in not a demigod, he was a great football player, with many visible flaws.
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thanks Post received 2 applause.
DoddPower on 6/21/2013(UTC), dfosterf on 6/21/2013(UTC)
Offline earthquake  
#21 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 8:07:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Again in this thread, there is a whole lot of IDIOCY being posted against Favre by some DISGRACES to be called Packer fans.

The guy may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer. He may have shown some stupidity and/or disloyalty and/or whatever at the end of his career, but WHILE HE WAS A PACKER he had a career unparalleled in NFL history. We - including the sh*theads trashing him if they are old enough, had fifteen wonderful years of winning football, thanks in large part to Brett Favre. That far outweighs whatever petty sh*t at the end, and his records for yardage and touchdowns along with the consecutive game streak say that NOBODY in NFL history ever had a better career.

I'll be the first to say Aaron Rodgers is a better player right now than Favre was at his best, and that Rodgers likely will surpass Favre as the greatest in history, but for these sick trolls and sh*theads to deny the undeniable is just plain disgraceful.


Bart Starr
Joe Montana
Tom Brady

If you're an honest, objective fan, these three players were better quarterbacks than Brett Favre. You don't have to look far to figure out why; postseason success.

Favre isn't the greatest packer quarterback, or packer player, let along player ever in the league. Star was 9-1 in the playoffs, 2 superbowl wins, 3 straight championships and 5 total championships. Hutson dominated the league like no player has ever done or likely ever will again, he was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice, but he was even better comparatively than Rice.

Montana won 4 Superbowls with an overall playoff record of 23-16.

Brady is 3-5 in Superbowls (I realize he hasn't been great recently in the playoffs, but getting to 5 in itself is HUGE) for a playoff record of 24-17.

The greatest QBs do not turn the ball over when the game is on the line, this is why Favre will never be considered the greatest. He did many great things, his longevity and durability was certainly the greatest of any player to ever play the game. But greatest QB? No, not even close. He may have been the most exciting, entertaining player to watch. Unfortunately that excitement lead to disappointment and heartache at the end of the season more often than not.

Edited by user Friday, June 21, 2013 8:23:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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thanks Post received 1 applause.
dfosterf on 6/21/2013(UTC)
Offline OlHoss1884  
#22 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 10:19:21 AM(UTC)
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On the subject of Favre, it's hard to compare eras. Unitas threw for 40K yards in an era before the 5 yard chuck rule, before QB protection rules, before tackles could start a step back, and when QB were expected to call the plays. While I would certainly list Favre in the top 10, I would not say he was the best. The most entertaining I admit, and his style fit a team that needed to take risks to win for much of his career. Most importantly it was nice ot to have to worry about the position for so long while my Bears fan friends were lamenting the Cade McNowns, Kordell Stewarts, Rick Mirers and Dave Kriegs of the world. Hell the most effective QB they've had in 30 years made a great kicking tee recovery boy for the Favre-led champs.

For overrated/underrated I define these as whether a guy was recognized for being as good s he was or believed to be great despite that he really wasn't. A prospect who comes with hype but doesn't pan out doesn't make that list, nor does someone who comes from nowhere to succeed, as they get "rated" once they are noticed/recognized.

Underrated I have to agree on Lynn Dickey. Never got his due because of all the 41-38 losses the team seemed to have during his time, but to go back even farther I might say Leroy Caffey, who was a terrific LB but overshadowed by his two HOF linemates in Nitschke and Robinson.

overrated I might say Hornung. As good as he was he had a lot of HOFers like Starr, Taylor, Ringo, Gregg, and Kramer making him look good. Surrounded by that cast I would have expected his numbers to be a lot more eye-popping than they are, not that I don't think he's a clear HOFer in any case.

One of the things about having a team in a market the size of GB is that you almost never see overrated players. Bigger markets tend to get a lot more hype for their stars, so guys like Phil Simms, Mark Gastineau, Brian Urlacher, Eric Dickerson and Michael Irvin go from being great players to being legends. Players in smaller, less prominent markets tend to go under the radar a lot more often like Sean Alexander, Ronde Barber, Sam Mills, John Randle or Bert Jones. I bet most of us could a lot more easily come up with a list of 10 underrated Packers than overrated ones.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
thanks Post received 1 applause.
Mr_Bumpy on 6/22/2013(UTC)
Online nerdmann  
#23 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 11:04:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 Go to Quoted Post
On the subject of Favre, it's hard to compare eras. Unitas threw for 40K yards in an era before the 5 yard chuck rule, before QB protection rules, before tackles could start a step back, and when QB were expected to call the plays. While I would certainly list Favre in the top 10, I would not say he was the best. The most entertaining I admit, and his style fit a team that needed to take risks to win for much of his career. Most importantly it was nice ot to have to worry about the position for so long while my Bears fan friends were lamenting the Cade McNowns, Kordell Stewarts, Rick Mirers and Dave Kriegs of the world. Hell the most effective QB they've had in 30 years made a great kicking tee recovery boy for the Favre-led champs.

For overrated/underrated I define these as whether a guy was recognized for being as good s he was or believed to be great despite that he really wasn't. A prospect who comes with hype but doesn't pan out doesn't make that list, nor does someone who comes from nowhere to succeed, as they get "rated" once they are noticed/recognized.

Underrated I have to agree on Lynn Dickey. Never got his due because of all the 41-38 losses the team seemed to have during his time, but to go back even farther I might say Leroy Caffey, who was a terrific LB but overshadowed by his two HOF linemates in Nitschke and Robinson.

overrated I might say Hornung. As good as he was he had a lot of HOFers like Starr, Taylor, Ringo, Gregg, and Kramer making him look good. Surrounded by that cast I would have expected his numbers to be a lot more eye-popping than they are, not that I don't think he's a clear HOFer in any case.

One of the things about having a team in a market the size of GB is that you almost never see overrated players. Bigger markets tend to get a lot more hype for their stars, so guys like Phil Simms, Mark Gastineau, Brian Urlacher, Eric Dickerson and Michael Irvin go from being great players to being legends. Players in smaller, less prominent markets tend to go under the radar a lot more often like Sean Alexander, Ronde Barber, Sam Mills, John Randle or Bert Jones. I bet most of us could a lot more easily come up with a list of 10 underrated Packers than overrated ones.



As for Dickey, they had a GREAT offense. Problem there was, the defense couldn't stop anybody. So yeah, he's gonna be underrated.

As for Paul Hornung, Vince Lombardi himself said, "When the game is on the line, Paul Hornung is the greatest player I've ever seen." That's good enough for me.
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Offline porky88  
#24 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 12:18:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: earthquake Go to Quoted Post
Bart Starr
Joe Montana
Tom Brady

If you're an honest, objective fan, these three players were better quarterbacks than Brett Favre. You don't have to look far to figure out why; postseason success.

Favre isn't the greatest packer quarterback, or packer player, let along player ever in the league. Star was 9-1 in the playoffs, 2 superbowl wins, 3 straight championships and 5 total championships. Hutson dominated the league like no player has ever done or likely ever will again, he was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice, but he was even better comparatively than Rice.

Montana won 4 Superbowls with an overall playoff record of 23-16.

Brady is 3-5 in Superbowls (I realize he hasn't been great recently in the playoffs, but getting to 5 in itself is HUGE) for a playoff record of 24-17.

The greatest QBs do not turn the ball over when the game is on the line, this is why Favre will never be considered the greatest. He did many great things, his longevity and durability was certainly the greatest of any player to ever play the game. But greatest QB? No, not even close. He may have been the most exciting, entertaining player to watch. Unfortunately that excitement lead to disappointment and heartache at the end of the season more often than not.

I don't think most consider Favre the greatest quarterback in history. I don't see that too much. Brady certainly surpassed him, and I don’t think any football historian ever placed him above Joe Montana. I think people have forgotten how good he was, actually. It's a shame because his best was better than most. There was a span (94-98) when he played the position unbelievably well. You never hear about those years in regards to Favre anymore.

It’s also become a common theme to blame him for every playoff defeat in his era. I’ve watched these games multiple times and that’s simply a false analysis. Yes, bash away at the ‘07 and ‘09 championship games, as those were awful throws, but there were other things go on in most of his playoff losses.

Favre fans are quick to defend him. I know first hand. I criticized quite a bit in ‘06 and took some heat on the old site from some people that would go on to hate the man in ‘09. Still, as quick as Favre fans are emotional in defending him, his critics are also emotional in their critique. Labeling him the most overrated Packer in history, as the NFL Network segment did, is among those examples.
Offline OlHoss1884  
#25 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 12:25:56 PM(UTC)
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I will add this to why Favre was not overrated: because for 15 years or so his being in the huddle meant almost no game was out of reach. He had an amazing ability to make some crazy plays (like that cross field TD pass in Detroit in that playoff game), an impact few individual players can have. Did he lose a lot of games with his antics? Of course he did, but he more than made up for it with the number of victories he pulled out of his a$$ over the years as well.

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#26 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 12:31:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 Go to Quoted Post
I will add this to why Favre was not overrated: because for 15 years or so his being in the huddle meant almost no game was out of reach.


And that's how the opponents felt too. I recall several times where opponents would say that they "have to keep their hands on the ball because Brett tosses a few INT's a game". Meaning that Brett would throw it into their hands, but if they weren't alert, they'd miss the opportunity.
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Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#27 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 12:43:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 Go to Quoted Post
I will add this to why Favre was not overrated: because for 15 years or so his being in the huddle meant almost no game was out of reach. He had an amazing ability to make some crazy plays (like that cross field TD pass in Detroit in that playoff game), an impact few individual players can have. Did he lose a lot of games with his antics? Of course he did, but he more than made up for it with the number of victories he pulled out of his a$$ over the years as well.



This is a complete myth.

Favre's success rating in comeback opportunities was well below average.

Average would be between 40 and 50%. Favre was actually in the low 30s.

He more than made up for his comebacks with his record number of chokes.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#28 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 1:00:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: porky88 Go to Quoted Post
It's hard to knock Favre for interceptions and then praise Arnie Herber, who threw 106 interceptions and only 81 touchdowns. He also attempted 1,175 career passes. Favre attempted 10,169 passes. Based on the pattern, Herber would have over 900 interceptions by his 10,169th pass attempt. That's nearly 600 more than Favre's 336.

Comparing the eras (and players) is impossible considering the game was far less complex. Some high school sophomores probably can run a faster 40 than many of the players during that era. Rob Gronkowski also would probably play nose tackle and guard. There are a few exceptions (namely Don Hutson), but that’s why they’re exceptions and not the rule.

Another obstacle is the lack of weight training by the players, and the fact many probably were smokers. Regardless, the biggest omission people make in comparing distant eras to today's age is race relations. Herber won championships in the 30s. Jackie Robinson hadn't even broken through the barrier yet. To recap, the players didn’t train, they weren’t as healthy, and prejudices prevented the league from fielding the best players.


Did you miss the part when I said "for his day he was farther above average than Favre was for his"?

Comparing players from different eras is impossible. So I wouldn't do it.

No helmets, no rules against hitting WRs because the were not WRs, they were offensive ends. They had all the protection of a blocker.

QBs had no protection either. Brady would leave the game in a body bag his first snap.

The players of that era had the same handicaps as the ones they were playing against.

You can't even accurately compare Players from the '60 to today. Even Marino played in an era when the average passer rating was 12.5 points lower than it was for Favre. Comparing them head to head gives Favre a huge advantage for when he played.

To sum up, I am saying that Herber was farther above the standard for his day than Favre was for the '1992-2101 seasons. Relative to when he played, Herber was better.

Otherwise, if you compare Favre head to head with any great QB that played in the past, Staubach, Unitas, Montana, Graham, Luckman, Baugh etc, he looks like he was better. But all those other QBs were so much farther above the standard than Favre, he just doesn't compare. Because the rules protected Favre and his WRs, the medical care kept him playing, the equipment protected him, the game itself is different.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#29 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 1:03:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Do you think he laid down for Strahan to get the sack record?


Sandbagged '05, sandbagged '06 and tanked the '07 NFCCG.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
nerdmann on 6/21/2013(UTC)
Offline Dexter_Sinister  
#30 Posted : Friday, June 21, 2013 1:08:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: porky88 Go to Quoted Post
I don't think most consider Favre the greatest quarterback in history. I don't see that too much. Brady certainly surpassed him, and I don’t think any football historian ever placed him above Joe Montana. I think people have forgotten how good he was, actually. It's a shame because his best was better than most. There was a span (94-98) when he played the position unbelievably well. You never hear about those years in regards to Favre anymore.

It’s also become a common theme to blame him for every playoff defeat in his era. I’ve watched these games multiple times and that’s simply a false analysis. Yes, bash away at the ‘07 and ‘09 championship games, as those were awful throws, but there were other things go on in most of his playoff losses.

Favre fans are quick to defend him. I know first hand. I criticized quite a bit in ‘06 and took some heat on the old site from some people that would go on to hate the man in ‘09. Still, as quick as Favre fans are emotional in defending him, his critics are also emotional in their critique. Labeling him the most overrated Packer in history, as the NFL Network segment did, is among those examples.


To paraphrase the greatest coach in history, Teams win and QBs play.

I wouldn't blame Favre for any of his losses, but I would hold him accountable for his play.

9 of 10 playoff runs were ended by Favre playing poorly, throwing last second picks or failing to step up and even get a first down with time on the clock, 4 downs and within 1 score.

The only super bowl we won was when the D and ST made sure Favre wasn't needed in the 4th quarter. All he had to do was not choke.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
thanks Post received 1 applause.
nerdmann on 6/21/2013(UTC)
 
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