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MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 4:29:08 PM(UTC)
LombardiAve said:
Over the past two decades, the Green Bay Packers have qualified for the NFL Playoffs 15 times, missing out only in 1999, 2000, 2006, 2006 and 2008. The reason? Consistency at the quarterback position. Knowing all too well that the man under center has been the driver of the bus in this league, the Packers [...]
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#2 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 5:00:17 PM(UTC)
Excellent Article.

We have really been TWICE BLESSED over the last couple of decades. And before that, we were multipally unblessed for way too long.

Is that a misprint - listing 2006 twice - or what? If so, was there a different year to make a total of five? Or just four?
Dexter_Sinister  
#3 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 5:47:43 PM(UTC)
The D has been pretty instrumental to the post season runs we have had.

No one position wins in the NFL.

To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, Teams win, QBs play. They play well or they don't.

But no QB wins without a team.
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Saturday, June 29, 2013 5:52:53 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
The D has been pretty instrumental to the post season runs we have had.

No one position wins in the NFL.

To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, Teams win, QBs play. They play well or they don't.

But no QB wins without a team.


Basically, Aaron Rodgers has proved that to be obsolete - no disrespect to Ol' Vince, but if he was still around, he'd see and say the same. Position for position, the Packers, let's face it, are bottom half, maybe bottom ten, maybe bottom five EXCEPT for our ALL WORLD QB. With him, we've got very possibly the best in the NFL, certainly Top Five.

DoddPower  
#5 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 10:19:30 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
The D has been pretty instrumental to the post season runs we have had.

No one position wins in the NFL.

To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, Teams win, QBs play. They play well or they don't.

But no QB wins without a team.



That's incredibly rhetorical. However, it's very obvious that no other single position affects the outcomes of games more than the QB position, especially in today's NFL. Obviously Aaron Rodgers doesn't get the wins; the Green Bay Packers do. But ~95% of the time, no other single player has as much to do with those victories, or losses, than Aaron Rodgers (and any other starting QB in the league).
Dexter_Sinister  
#6 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 11:54:59 AM(UTC)
The QB is the single biggest position in contributing to the wins and losses, but there are a hundred other guys that play roles. The QB doesn''t block, catch, run, play D, ST coach,or manage the team. They all contribute to the win.

The passing D contributes as much as the passing O. The QB isn't even half of the passing O.

Rodgers can have the greatest post season game ever and still lose if the D gives up 51 points.Or if the D gives up a hail Mary and the WRs drop 8 passes.

Teams win. Or the Packers would never have lost a game in the last 4 years.


Dexter_Sinister  
#7 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:00:08 PM(UTC)
texaspackerbacker said: Go to Quoted Post
Basically, Aaron Rodgers has proved that to be obsolete - no disrespect to Ol' Vince, but if he was still around, he'd see and say the same. Position for position, the Packers, let's face it, are bottom half, maybe bottom ten, maybe bottom five EXCEPT for our ALL WORLD QB. With him, we've got very possibly the best in the NFL, certainly Top Five.



Everything you said was wrong.
DoddPower  
#8 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:35:45 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
The QB is the single biggest position in contributing to the wins and losses, but there are a hundred other guys that play roles. The QB doesn''t block, catch, run, play D, ST coach,or manage the team. They all contribute to the win.

The passing D contributes as much as the passing O. The QB isn't even half of the passing O.

Rodgers can have the greatest post season game ever and still lose if the D gives up 51 points.Or if the D gives up a hail Mary and the WRs drop 8 passes.

Teams win. Or the Packers would never have lost a game in the last 4 years.




Again, all of that is rhetorical. But there still isn't a single position of greater importance in today's NFL than the QB position. They contribute more than any other single position, and that's what I said in my original post. I didn't go into percentages or any other scenarios.
Dexter_Sinister  
#9 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 1:09:57 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
Again, all of that is rhetorical. But there still isn't a single position of greater importance in today's NFL than the QB position. They contribute more than any other single position, and that's what I said in my original post. I didn't go into percentages or any other scenarios.


Again, he is going to be the single largest positon. 5% is a lot more than .5%, but that isn't going to be the deciding factor.

All of the coaches have a part in it. Look at the difference between Fare with Holmgren and without.

The GM building the team has a lot to do with winning.

That isn't even getting into the players yet. Rodgers has nothing to do with how the D or ST play.That alone is more than half the game.

Vince had the greatest post season QB ever and he still said teams win.

Dexter_Sinister  
#10 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 1:12:52 PM(UTC)
Are 95% of the losses Rodgers fault?
User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#11 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 2:44:40 PM(UTC)
While the QB obviously isn't singlehandedly to blame for losses or responsible for wins, it's just common sense that he is PRIMARILY responsible, especially on the winning end of things.

I would liken the Packers' situation to the Colts when Peyton Manning went down. With him they were one of the top team; Without him, the bottom fell out and they were among the worst. You look at the Packers O Line, the RBs prior to this coming season, the performance of the defense the past few seasons, and I say again, the Packers minus Aaron Rodgers are a bottom ten team, maybe bottom five. With Rodgers, nobody is clearly better.
Dexter_Sinister  
#12 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:19:10 PM(UTC)
Like when Flynn came in for Rodgers and nearly beat the Patriots and did beat the Lions.

Manning was not the only loss the Colts had that year.

Part of what makes Rodgers as good as he is would transfer over to the next QB. The scheme, coaching, weapons and D. The team that the management built would remain and the coaching would remain.

Rodgers is responsible for his play. He deserves all the credit for being the 2nd best QB ever. Behind Sid Luckman.

But the team wins and the team loses.

If the Packers went from the best QB in the league to the worst, they would struggle. Like any team would.

But I don't think McCarthey would have a bad QB if he had some time to coach them up. He deserves part of the credit for Rodgers being as good as he is.

The D is a lot better than people give them credit for and a lot more critical in their record. I don't think it is a coincidence that the year we won the super bowl, they were 2nd in points allowed. In the last 5 years the Packers have been 4th, 4th, 1st, 10th and 4th in passer rating allowed. Again, the year they were 1st, they won the super bowl.

In the last 2 years, Rodgers has been better than he was in 2010 and the TEAM has not been more successful than it was when they had the #1 passing D.

If we lost Rodgers we would not have the same line and same RBs as last year. The Passing D is already great and I think they are getting better. They would have a drop off, but not bottom 10 or 5 in the league. They would still have a passing game. Just not as good. They would still have that passing D. Which matters as much as the Passing O.

How good our passing D is, is as important as how good Rodgers is. The running game, run D and ST are still important. Not AS important, but they also contribute to wins and losses. The Coaches and management are aslo important in how good Rodgers and the rest of the team is. Without good coaching and good management, how good Rodgers is wouldn't matter in the slightest.

User is suspended until 4/29/2043 11:56:55 PM(UTC) texaspackerbacker  
#13 Posted : Sunday, June 30, 2013 8:16:34 PM(UTC)
God willing, we won't find out hahahaha.

What I saw was Aaron Rodgers running for his life because the O Line couldn't block shit, virtually no time at all to set up, but he STILL dominated the game like nobody else present or past could (Sid Luckman???????? come on!!!!!). What I saw was virtually no credible running game at all until Harris came along, and he only looked great by comparison to worse - and in fairness, give the O Line significant blame for that too. What I saw was decent but not super receivers made to look super by Rodgers' incredible escapability and accuracy. What I saw was a defense that had a front seven that showed virtually no toughness against the run or pass rush other than Clay Matthews, and a D Backfield that did an excellent job, but was overwhelmed most of the time by weakness of the front seven.

Yeah, I'm hopeful the O Line will improve just from having EDS instead of Saturday as well as the rearrangement. Yeah, I'm very hopeful the RBs will actually be quality this year. Yeah, there would seem to be a strong chance a healthy Perry and maybe Neal, as well as Datone Jones will make the defense respectable. And yeah, Harrell could be a serviceable player, and Coleman, given some time and teaching could be special, but ALL that aside, the team is STILL in the toilet if Rodgers gets a season-ending injury. That's basically indisputable.

Sid Luckman? hahahahahahahahaha
DoddPower  
#14 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2013 12:38:47 PM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Again, he is going to be the single largest positon. 5% is a lot more than .5%, but that isn't going to be the deciding factor.

All of the coaches have a part in it. Look at the difference between Fare with Holmgren and without.

The GM building the team has a lot to do with winning.

That isn't even getting into the players yet. Rodgers has nothing to do with how the D or ST play.That alone is more than half the game.

Vince had the greatest post season QB ever and he still said teams win.



You continually seem to overstate or add things to what others have said. I simply said the QB position contributes more than any other single position in the NFL. Nothing more, nothing less. You're welcome to further the discussion obviously, but it wasn't the point of any comment I made, so please don't frame it as such. I'm glad you agree.

Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
Are 95% of the losses Rodgers fault?


I hope that wasn't in response to my mention of 95%, because if it was, you completely missed the point (once again) and could use some reading comprehension tutoring. I simply said that ~95% of the time (or better yet, I should have said the vast majority), the QB position has more influence than any other position in the NFL.

Otherwise, I think Rodgers or any other QB does have something to do with how the defense plays, and vice-versa. If nothing else, it can factor into how many opportunities each unit has.

You keep stating that Vince said "teams win." I think that's universally accepted, and who's denying that? I'm certainly not, but thanks for reminding me of a nice quote multiple times. However, it has nothing to do with the posts I've made on this topic.
Dexter_Sinister  
#15 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2013 5:38:14 PM(UTC)
doddpower said: Go to Quoted Post
You continually seem to overstate or add things to what others have said. I simply said the QB position contributes more than any other single position in the NFL. Nothing more, nothing less. You're welcome to further the discussion obviously, but it wasn't the point of any comment I made, so please don't frame it as such. I'm glad you agree.



I hope that wasn't in response to my mention of 95%, because if it was, you completely missed the point (once again) and could use some reading comprehension tutoring. I simply said that ~95% of the time (or better yet, I should have said the vast majority), the QB position has more influence than any other position in the NFL.

Otherwise, I think Rodgers or any other QB does have something to do with how the defense plays, and vice-versa. If nothing else, it can factor into how many opportunities each unit has.

You keep stating that Vince said "teams win." I think that's universally accepted, and who's denying that? I'm certainly not, but thanks for reminding me of a nice quote multiple times. However, it has nothing to do with the posts I've made on this topic.


I said 5% (how much credit I would give a QB) is 10 times the influence of .5%,(how much credit the other players would probably average) so essentially I was agreeing with the point that the QB is a bigger factor. Probably all the time, not just 95% of the time.

So I did get what your were saying. I was just going another level beyond what you were saying.

The Point I was making, the one that you didn't seem follow, is you can't hang losses on or credit wins to a player that is responsible for about 5% of what goes into winning or losing.

The QB is the player with the single biggest role. But when adding it all together, he doesn't win or lose the game.

The QB has a minor to insignificant role in the running game and is less than half the passing game, when you add in receivers and blocking. I would also give half the credit for what the QB does to coaching and management. Coaching for preparation scheme, training, etc. The management gets credit for scouting, and building the team around the QB.

None of that even touches on D and ST which are more than half the game.

Which brings me back to what Vince said.

It was true when he said it and it is true now.
Dexter_Sinister  
#16 Posted : Monday, July 1, 2013 6:00:41 PM(UTC)
Luckman still owns most of the Bears passing records.

He is still #1 all time in TD% and #2 in yards per attempts.

He, Otto Graham and Sammy Baugh are extremely under rated.

Along with George Ratterman, Arnie Herber, Kenny Anderson, Len Dawson, Sonny Jergenson.

Most people don't rank them in any all time greats lists because they have never heard of most of them.




DoddPower  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, July 2, 2013 9:00:10 AM(UTC)
Dexter_Sinister said: Go to Quoted Post
I said 5% (how much credit I would give a QB) is 10 times the influence of .5%,(how much credit the other players would probably average) so essentially I was agreeing with the point that the QB is a bigger factor. Probably all the time, not just 95% of the time.

So I did get what your were saying. I was just going another level beyond what you were saying.

The Point I was making, the one that you didn't seem follow, is you can't hang losses on or credit wins to a player that is responsible for about 5% of what goes into winning or losing.

The QB is the player with the single biggest role. But when adding it all together, he doesn't win or lose the game.

The QB has a minor to insignificant role in the running game and is less than half the passing game, when you add in receivers and blocking. I would also give half the credit for what the QB does to coaching and management. Coaching for preparation scheme, training, etc. The management gets credit for scouting, and building the team around the QB.

None of that even touches on D and ST which are more than half the game.

Which brings me back to what Vince said.

It was true when he said it and it is true now.


That's fine, but I disagree with you about the importance of the QB position, especially an elite QB or a horrible QB. In my opinion, they are a SUBSTANTIAL factor in the outcome of every game, not a minor one. Today's rules only facilitate that. It's still a team sport, but the play of the QB certainly affects every aspect of the offense and substantially affects the defense, as well. I'm not really into being quantitative about it and guessing at a percentage, because I have no basis of establishing that level of precision. But as I said, it's definitely not a minor rule and I will go as far to say that it is substantial. I certainly believe a QB such as Aaron Rodgers contributes more than 5% to any wins or losses for the Packers almost all the time. There are always exceptions, but exceptions do not define the norm.
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