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Offline wpr  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:41:49 AM(UTC)
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JSOnline wrote:
For there to be a Super Bowl for Patrick Lewis and Greg Van Roten, first there must be the Green Bay Packers’ exhibition finale Thursday night against the Kansas City Chiefs at Arrowhead Stadium.


Lewis goes to PS this year and he could bump GVR next year.
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DarkaneRules on 8/29/2013(UTC)
Offline play2win  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:29:13 AM(UTC)
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I have both players being kept on the 53.

I'll add that Lane Taylor also makes it. We should be keeping 9 OL this year, as the battles are indeed won in the trenches. We are looking to emphasize the running game. All the more reason to bring the beef!
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DarkaneRules on 8/29/2013(UTC)
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:06:07 AM(UTC)
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Today I would say Van Roten would win the spot.

After tonights game that could change, that is how close this competition is.

With the way other positions are panning out, I see The Packers keeping 8 O-lineman at the most, they might even try to start the year with 7.

They keep 8 and I will give the nod to Van Roten as #7, then there will be a battle between Lewis, Taylor, Datko, Gerhart, and Hughs for the 8th spot. Lewis would be my choice for #8.

With Ted keeping 2 more on the PS.

I know its a risk cutting these guys and hoping they clear waivers, but it has came time where tough decision need to be made, and I really don't think any that are cut will have any problem clearing waivers, these guys are much more valuable to The Packers than any other team.

Been fun trying to figure this all out, Saturday can't come soon enough.
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Offline wpr  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:30:18 AM(UTC)
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7 linemen seems like it would be too few. That is only 2 backups. Granted most of them can play more than one position but with the injury history in GB that would make me very nervous. I can not count on anyone being on the PS 3 weeks into the season.
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Offline DarkaneRules  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:44:03 AM(UTC)
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I think both make it as well. When Sherrod comes back, the discussion gets more interesting.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:47:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DarkaneRules Go to Quoted Post
I think both make it as well. When Sherrod comes back, the discussion gets more interesting.


Derek Sherrod comes back game 8 and saves the season by solidifying the LT position which hampered the Packers to that point. SUPER BOWL BABY!!
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#7 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:48:52 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
7 linemen seems like it would be too few. That is only 2 backups. Granted most of them can play more than one position but with the injury history in GB that would make me very nervous. I can not count on anyone being on the PS 3 weeks into the season.


The Packers started last year with 7, usually it is 8, this really comes down to how many Defensive players and TE's They decide to keep.

Some reports have The Packers keeping 10 db's, which given the injury situation, that doesn't seem to far fetched.
6d-lineman, 9 lbr's, 10 db's............................25

3 sp team.......................................................03

2 qb's. 5 rb's/fb,5 wr's,5 te's..........................17

That would leave room for 8o-lineman...........08

Problem being, I see 7 d-lineman being kept, but only 4 te's, that still leaves room for 8.

Packers decide to go with 10 lbr's to start, that might force them to keep only 7 o-linemen to begin the season.

C'mon Saturday!!!!
Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’. "Stats are for Losers"
Offline wpr  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:58:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
The Packers started last year with 7, usually it is 8, this really comes down to how many Defensive players and TE's They decide to keep.

Some reports have The Packers keeping 10 db's, which given the injury situation, that doesn't seem to far fetched.
6d-lineman, 9 lbr's, 10 db's............................25

3 sp team.......................................................03

2 qb's. 5 rb's/fb,5 wr's,5 te's..........................17

That would leave room for 8o-lineman...........08

Problem being, I see 7 d-lineman being kept, but only 4 te's, that still leaves room for 8.

Packers decide to go with 10 lbr's to start, that might force them to keep only 7 o-linemen to begin the season.

C'mon Saturday!!!!


I understand. Sherrod is a wild card in the whole issue but I think they may feel more comfortable if they have 8.
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Offline QCHuskerFan  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:08:29 PM(UTC)
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Sherrod coming back to help. Hehehehehehehehehe.

Oh. You weren't making a joke? My bad. Just thought it was hilarious!
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wpr on 8/29/2013(UTC)
Offline wpr  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:32:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: QCHuskerFan Go to Quoted Post
Sherrod coming back to help. Hehehehehehehehehe.

Oh. You weren't making a joke? My bad. Just thought it was hilarious!


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who ever put this together did it wrong. The word was:

youneverknow.
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Offline steveishere  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:02:35 PM(UTC)
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With the quality of the back ups right now I don't really see them keeping 8 or 9 guys. They only have 1 back up right now (Newhouse/Barclay) with any proven ability. The rest of the guys most likely could make it to the practice squad and even if they didn't wouldn't be hard to replace with just a street guy. I don't think GVR or Lewis would really be a big deal to lose. So they probably keep the 1 back up and maybe 1 more but the rest they can just keep on the PS and call up if needed (and save a roster spot). For all we know Ted might even snatch up a guy that gets released from another team.
Offline nerdmann  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:49:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
With the quality of the back ups right now I don't really see them keeping 8 or 9 guys. They only have 1 back up right now (Newhouse/Barclay) with any proven ability. The rest of the guys most likely could make it to the practice squad and even if they didn't wouldn't be hard to replace with just a street guy. I don't think GVR or Lewis would really be a big deal to lose. So they probably keep the 1 back up and maybe 1 more but the rest they can just keep on the PS and call up if needed (and save a roster spot). For all we know Ted might even snatch up a guy that gets released from another team.


Ted will definitely snatch a guy or two.

Ted's philosophy is that you can get by on the Oline with "just guys." Stick them in there and then get superstars at the "skill" positions.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline buckeyepackfan  
#13 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 2:22:37 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted will definitely snatch a guy or two.

Ted's philosophy is that you can get by on the Oline with "just guys." Stick them in there and then get superstars at the "skill" positions.


2010.. Bryan Bulaga 1st rnd, 2011...Derrick Sherard 1st rnd.....2009 TJ Lang 4th rnd
2008 Giacoma(3rd or 4th)

2012 Datko and Coleman in the 7th rnd(only offenseive players drafted)

2013 Bahkatari and Tretter both 4th rnd picks

I'm sure if Ted could have read the tea leaves and knew that Bulaga and Sherrard were going to get injured he would have spent those picks on other players.

Facts are, A. Rodgers is the only "skilled" position player Ted has used a #1 pick on.

The fact that The Packers "skilled" position players were mostly drafted in rnds 2,3 and 4 just shows how much work that goes into finding quality players in the later rnds.

Once again the FACTS get in the way of your take on Teds philosophy !!!
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Offline nerdmann  
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 2:57:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
2010.. Bryan Bulaga 1st rnd, 2011...Derrick Sherard 1st rnd.....2009 TJ Lang 4th rnd
2008 Giacoma(3rd or 4th)

2012 Datko and Coleman in the 7th rnd(only offenseive players drafted)

2013 Bahkatari and Tretter both 4th rnd picks

I'm sure if Ted could have read the tea leaves and knew that Bulaga and Sherrard were going to get injured he would have spent those picks on other players.

Facts are, A. Rodgers is the only "skilled" position player Ted has used a #1 pick on.

The fact that The Packers "skilled" position players were mostly drafted in rnds 2,3 and 4 just shows how much work that goes into finding quality players in the later rnds.

Once again the FACTS get in the way of your take on Teds philosophy !!!


You all right dude? LOL

Yeah man. Ted has invested TWO 1sts in the Oline. But he did so only after rebuilding the rest of the team. First thing he did when he took over was get rid of Wahle and Rivera. Now he is able to address the line to some degree. I would also note that he's addressing the T positions first. He'll probably get a viable C next.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:05:02 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
You all right dude? LOL

Yeah man. Ted has invested TWO 1sts in the Oline. But he did so only after rebuilding the rest of the team. First thing he did when he took over was get rid of Wahle and Rivera. Now he is able to address the line to some degree. I would also note that he's addressing the T positions first. He'll probably get a viable C next.


And as you argued over and over again, Ted had NO OTHER CHOICE, but to do so.

Don't state "Ted's philosophy is that you can get by on the Oline with "just guys." Stick them in there and then get superstars at the "skill" positions." Then try and backtrack.
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Offline steveishere  
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:06:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
You all right dude? LOL

Yeah man. Ted has invested TWO 1sts in the Oline. But he did so only after rebuilding the rest of the team. First thing he did when he took over was get rid of Wahle and Rivera. Now he is able to address the line to some degree. I would also note that he's addressing the T positions first. He'll probably get a viable C next.


Well when he first got here he didn't have to get any T cause he had Clifton and Tausch. He got an all-pro quality guard in Sitton and used a 2nd on College. For the most part injuries are what has screwed up the offensive line not drafting (or supposed lack thereof).
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Offline wpr  
#17 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:19:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
You all right dude? LOL

Yeah man. Ted has invested TWO 1sts in the Oline. But he did so only after rebuilding the rest of the team. First thing he did when he took over was get rid of Wahle and Rivera. Now he is able to address the line to some degree. I would also note that he's addressing the T positions first. He'll probably get a viable C next.


I think you conveniently forget that GB was in cap hell when Ted took over. There was no way for him to compete with the high market prices the two guys got even if he had wanted to. If I recall it worked out for the best that he did not retain either one of them. They were not worth the money they got over their entire contracts. So one can say that was genius on Ted's part (even if it was by default.) after all that is how we landed Mrs Colledge! Applause
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Offline nerdmann  
#18 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:25:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Well when he first got here he didn't have to get any T cause he had Clifton and Tausch. He got an all-pro quality guard in Sitton and used a 2nd on College. For the most part injuries are what has screwed up the offensive line not drafting (or supposed lack thereof).


Didn't have to get a QB either.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#19 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:30:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Didn't have to get a QB either.


Because no GM thinks he has to replace his 36 year old starter?? I don't get your logic here. He most certainly had to get a QB.
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Offline steveishere  
#20 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:23:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Didn't have to get a QB either.


Were any of the lineman contemplating retirement? Would any lineman he drafted have been the best draft pick in the league since 2005? Didn't think so. Bad example.
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wpr on 8/29/2013(UTC)
Offline Wade  
#21 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:17:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Ted will definitely snatch a guy or two.

Ted's philosophy is that you can get by on the Oline with "just guys." Stick them in there and then get superstars at the "skill" positions.


Well, I think Ted learned the "'just guys' aren't enough" principle after his first year. Since the Klemm/O'Dwyer experiment when nowhere, he has spent lots of draft choices on the line (as others in the thread have pointed out). He hasn't made OL an exception to his draft-not-FA approach (for which I have been quite critial over the years), but he has pretty much gone away from the "just guy" approach other than that first year.

I think the real problem isn't a lack of attention, but something in the scouting/personnel identification department. Maybe whoever it is that is involved in identifying and ranking and deciding about OL prospects on the team just isn't as good at it as whoever identifies WRs, DBs, positions where TT's team has been more productive draft-wise.

For a draft-heavy strategic approach like Ted Thompson follows, you need to be above the league average in your drafting quality. Not just in drafting "starters", but it drafting "high quality" starters. Everyone drafts a lot of starters. But a lot of those starters are, well, average or worse.

Ted and his team are above average at finding college WRs that will transition to above average in the pros. Unfortunately, they are below average at finding college OL who will do the same.

And if you can't be above average at finding college OL, and you are going to eschew major free agency spending at the positions, then you are going to have to not just draft OL regularly, you have to draft lots of them. (Which is why I always go "OL OL OL" to everyone's annoyance at draft time -- if Ted Thompson wants to get more or better hits with a department that is below average in one respect he either has to change the personnel team or he has to win with numbers.

Ted's been GM now for 9 drafts. On the OL he has drafted how many multi-year quality starters? Sitton everyone agrees on. That's one. Most fans add Bulaga. More than half I imagine would add Lang. Some would include Colledge. Many are still high on Sherrod's "potential." That's somewhere between three and five.

On the other hand, in most years he's tried two OL via the draft, sometimes three. I haven't the time to check all nine drafts, so lets assume an average over the nine years of 2.33 OL draft choices per year, or about 21 over the nine years of his GB drafting. In other words, his success rate lies between 1 in 7 and 1 in 4+. Let's make it 1 in five.

Hitting one in five when you draft two OL a year means that you're adding less than 1/2 a quality starter each year. To get 5 quality starters through the draft is going to take you 13 drafts. On the other hand, if you average draft three OL a year, it takes you 9; drafting 4 a year would still take seven.

To get the five at a rate of 2.33 draftees a year, just for chuckles? It's going to take 11 drafts. In other words, we shouldn't expect TT's draft strategy to get that starting line we want until...2015.


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Offline nerdmann  
#22 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 6:07:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Were any of the lineman contemplating retirement? Would any lineman he drafted have been the best draft pick in the league since 2005? Didn't think so. Bad example.


Cliffy was on his last legs for years. Rivera lasted like one more year.

Oh yeah, they got rid of Wahle too. C was in flux at that time too, iirc.

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Offline nerdmann  
#23 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 6:08:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Well, I think Ted learned the "'just guys' aren't enough" principle after his first year. Since the Klemm/O'Dwyer experiment when nowhere, he has spent lots of draft choices on the line (as others in the thread have pointed out). He hasn't made OL an exception to his draft-not-FA approach (for which I have been quite critial over the years), but he has pretty much gone away from the "just guy" approach other than that first year.

I think the real problem isn't a lack of attention, but something in the scouting/personnel identification department. Maybe whoever it is that is involved in identifying and ranking and deciding about OL prospects on the team just isn't as good at it as whoever identifies WRs, DBs, positions where TT's team has been more productive draft-wise.

For a draft-heavy strategic approach like Ted Thompson follows, you need to be above the league average in your drafting quality. Not just in drafting "starters", but it drafting "high quality" starters. Everyone drafts a lot of starters. But a lot of those starters are, well, average or worse.

Ted and his team are above average at finding college WRs that will transition to above average in the pros. Unfortunately, they are below average at finding college OL who will do the same.

And if you can't be above average at finding college OL, and you are going to eschew major free agency spending at the positions, then you are going to have to not just draft OL regularly, you have to draft lots of them. (Which is why I always go "OL OL OL" to everyone's annoyance at draft time -- if Ted Thompson wants to get more or better hits with a department that is below average in one respect he either has to change the personnel team or he has to win with numbers.

Ted's been GM now for 9 drafts. On the OL he has drafted how many multi-year quality starters? Sitton everyone agrees on. That's one. Most fans add Bulaga. More than half I imagine would add Lang. Some would include Colledge. Many are still high on Sherrod's "potential." That's somewhere between three and five.

On the other hand, in most years he's tried two OL via the draft, sometimes three. I haven't the time to check all nine drafts, so lets assume an average over the nine years of 2.33 OL draft choices per year, or about 21 over the nine years of his GB drafting. In other words, his success rate lies between 1 in 7 and 1 in 4+. Let's make it 1 in five.

Hitting one in five when you draft two OL a year means that you're adding less than 1/2 a quality starter each year. To get 5 quality starters through the draft is going to take you 13 drafts. On the other hand, if you average draft three OL a year, it takes you 9; drafting 4 a year would still take seven.

To get the five at a rate of 2.33 draftees a year, just for chuckles? It's going to take 11 drafts. In other words, we shouldn't expect TT's draft strategy to get that starting line we want until...2015.




For the first few years, Mike wanted Ted to get the "smaller, quicker" linemen. Since he's been able to go out and get the bigger stronger, guys, he's fared much better.
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Offline DakotaT  
#24 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:23:30 PM(UTC)
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You boys need to go back and watch the '96 Super Bowl and look at the dog shit we had for an offensive line. I've watch teams like the Chiefs and Vikings have great O-lines and nothing in the trophy case to show for it. One day we will all understand that we cannot possibly fool proof our roster and realize a quarterback with a brain, strong arm, and quick release allows you to get away with a serviceable line. But until that day, we will continue to have these redundant, yet surprisingly entertaining, exchanges of ideas on how to improve our blocking.
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Offline nerdmann  
#25 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:18:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
You boys need to go back and watch the '96 Super Bowl and look at the dog sh!t we had for an offensive line. I've watch teams like the Chiefs and Vikings have great O-lines and nothing in the trophy case to show for it. One day we will all understand that we cannot possibly fool proof our roster and realize a quarterback with a brain, strong arm, and quick release allows you to get away with a serviceable line. But until that day, we will continue to have these redundant, yet surprisingly entertaining, exchanges of ideas on how to improve our blocking.


That's quite true.

Bruce Wilkins was it? Ruettgers couldn't last the whole season. Just didn't have it anymore.

EDIT: Bruce Wilkerson.

For some reason I got him mixed up with the dude who wrote The Cross and the Switchblade.

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12h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / packman82

14h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / rabidgopher04

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / polargrizz

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Rios39

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra