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Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 5:27:18 AM(UTC)
Smart.

1. Early in the second quarter the Packers were backed up deep in their territory when Aaron Rodgers fumbled yet again. Jarrett Boykin ran back to the scrum to pick up the ball, preventing the Ravens from an easy score. The best thing to do is fall on it, but he got lucky.

2. Eddie Lacy after getting the final first down while running towards the sideline stays inbounds and then slides. This is very smart because it eliminates the chance of fumbling the ball or getting pushed out of bounds and the clock stopping.



Dumb.

1. Packers blocked the Ravens punt and John Kuhn, instead of wisely falling on it, tries and fails to scoop it up and Ravens recover getting a new set of downs.

2. Jermichael Finley should have turned back to midfield on his 52 yard catch and run. You have to keep that clock ticking.
wpr  
#2 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 7:16:45 AM(UTC)
yep. The dumb plays tend to stay in our mind longer. Especially if they were to lose.
PackFanWithTwins  
#3 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 7:37:45 AM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Smart.

1. Early in the second quarter the Packers were backed up deep in their territory when Aaron Rodgers fumbled yet again. Jarrett Boykin ran back to the scrum to pick up the ball, preventing the Ravens from an easy score. The best thing to do is fall on it, but he got lucky.

2. Eddie Lacy after getting the final first down while running towards the sideline stays inbounds and then slides. This is very smart because it eliminates the chance of fumbling the ball or getting pushed out of bounds and the clock stopping.



Dumb.

1. Packers blocked the Ravens punt and John Kuhn, instead of wisely falling on it, tries and fails to scoop it up and Ravens recover getting a new set of downs.

2. Jermichael Finley should have turned back to midfield on his 52 yard catch and run. You have to keep that clock ticking.


Falling on the ball seems like the easy thing to do, but I see the ball squirting out so often when players dive on it. And Boykin wasn't some Olineman that could just fall, he was running in. What I want to know on that play, was WHERE was the holding? We were lucky to get the block because the up man was tackling our guy as he came through for the block. How the hell do the officials miss a hold on the guy that blocks the ball?

Lacy play was excellent. And that he slid feet first also. Players other than QBs are not use to giving themselves up. Had somebody hit him, there would have been a penalty tacked on.

I remember hearing last week somebody talking about fumbles and they saying that they are training skill players to pick up the ball, and fat guys to fall on it. Kuhn was in position that if he picks that ball up, he has a chance for a TD. Other option would have been just batting the ball OB. I'm not sure any of them knew if the ball was live or not.

Finley, I agree but I think he was thinking more about running the defender over and scoring also.
Rios39  
#4 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 8:13:19 AM(UTC)
PackFanWithTwins said: Go to Quoted Post
Falling on the ball seems like the easy thing to do, but I see the ball squirting out so often when players dive on it. And Boykin wasn't some Olineman that could just fall, he was running in. What I want to know on that play, was WHERE was the holding? We were lucky to get the block because the up man was tackling our guy as he came through for the block. How the hell do the officials miss a hold on the guy that blocks the ball?

Lacy play was excellent. And that he slid feet first also. Players other than QBs are not use to giving themselves up. Had somebody hit him, there would have been a penalty tacked on.

I remember hearing last week somebody talking about fumbles and they saying that they are training skill players to pick up the ball, and fat guys to fall on it. Kuhn was in position that if he picks that ball up, he has a chance for a TD. Other option would have been just batting the ball OB. I'm not sure any of them knew if the ball was live or not.

Finley, I agree but I think he was thinking more about running the defender over and scoring also.



Finley was trying to score or stay close to the sideline so the defender couldn't force a fumble
sschind  
#5 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 9:07:53 AM(UTC)
Dumb- Kuhn for sure. You have to know that ball is live. Finley, I'm on the fence there. Its not like he headed out of bounds on his own. I'm sure he figured he could keep going.

Smart- Boykin, maybe not smart in the true sense but very heads up. Lacy, yeah, very smart although initially I though score (which I think he may have been able to do) and game over. Then I realized the time left and no TOs for the Ravens and the game was over.

I will add potentially dumb but maybe a good thing but a completely understandable thing. Datone Jones and the fumble recovery before the half. If he runs for 2 more seconds the half is over. If the ref doesn't add 2 seconds the half is over. On the other hand simply falling on the ball would have made it a 50 yard attempt (although they may have had time for 1 play to try to get it closer.) Also, he gets his first shot at a huge play you can't really blame the guy.
wpr  
#6 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 9:12:43 AM(UTC)
sschind said: Go to Quoted Post
Dumb- Kuhn for sure. You have to know that ball is live. Finley, I'm on the fence there. Its not like he headed out of bounds on his own. I'm sure he figured he could keep going.

Smart- Boykin, maybe not smart in the true sense but very heads up. Lacy, yeah, very smart although initially I though score (which I think he may have been able to do) and game over. Then I realized the time left and no TOs for the Ravens and the game was over.

I will add potentially dumb but maybe a good thing but a completely understandable thing. Datone Jones and the fumble recovery before the half. If he runs for 2 more seconds the half is over. If the ref doesn't add 2 seconds the half is over. On the other hand simply falling on the ball would have made it a 50 yard attempt (although they may have had time for 1 play to try to get it closer.) Also, he gets his first shot at a huge play you can't really blame the guy.


Going for the td and then having a defender get injured on the kickoff or the final play of the game (Packer Luck) would not have been fun. But as you said you realized the game was over.
Dulak  
#7 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 9:13:26 AM(UTC)
ya when kuhn did that mess up I was cringing - looked like something a 1st year player would do. After blocking a punt (which happens what once at year?)

He already appears replaced with short yardage plays by lacy ...
Zero2Cool  
#8 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 9:30:23 AM(UTC)
Dulak said: Go to Quoted Post
ya when kuhn did that mess up I was cringing - looked like something a 1st year player would do. After blocking a punt (which happens what once at year?)

He already appears replaced with short yardage plays by lacy ...


The Kuhn gaffe reminded me of the Bush gaffe back in the '07 season Giants playoff game.
mi_keys  
#9 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:24:12 PM(UTC)
Quote:
Dumb.

1. Packers blocked the Ravens punt and John Kuhn, instead of wisely falling on it, tries and fails to scoop it up and Ravens recover getting a new set of downs.


How is falling on it wise? If Kuhn doesn't touch the ball it is ours. Falling on it guarantees at best the same result as leaving the ball but adds the risk of causing a fumble recovered by the other team. Attempting to pick the ball up and advance it, while I thought was stupid at the time, at least has the potential to advance the ball and score. Falling on it is moderate risk, no reward; attempting to pick it up is high risk, high reward.
Zero2Cool  
#10 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:30:23 PM(UTC)
Falling on it is wise because it prevents one of the other Packers players from touching it and then the Ravens getting it and marching down the field. Dunno, seems like the obvious wise choice to me. Then again, I did cut the Rams defense in favor of the Giants in fantasy so ... shows how well my brain works.


Edit, trying to find the NFL rules on a Punt Block and haven't found a solid source. All I find is that when a punt is blocked, either team can recover the ball. However, the TV analysts said something about if the Ravens recovered, they couldn't advance it. I keep finding contradicting information on that, although, not sure its credible.


Example of uncredible source, eHow.com
Quote:
Once the punt has been blocked, any team may recover the ball even after it has touched the ground. If the punting team recovers the ball, they must advance the ball far enough to make up the necessary yardage to give them a first down (provided the ball was punted on fourth down) or else give up possession of the ball to the other team on the following play. If the defensive team recovers the ball, they will be granted possession wherever they are tackled unless they manage to reach the opposite end zone, in which case they will be awarded a defensive touchdown.


This is what I had believed to be true.




Edit2, Here we go... NFL.com http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/kicksfromscrimmage
Quote:
Kicks From Scrimmage

Any kick from scrimmage must be made from behind the line to be legal.

Any punt or missed field goal that touches a goal post is dead.

During a kick from scrimmage, only the end men, as eligible receivers on the line of scrimmage at the time of the snap, are permitted to go beyond the line before the ball is kicked.

Exception: An eligible receiver who, at the snap, is aligned or in motion behind the line and more than one yard outside the end man on his side of the line, clearly making him the outside receiver, replaces that end man as the player eligible to go downfield after the snap. All other members of the kicking team must remain at the line of scrimmage until the ball has been kicked.

Any punt that is blocked and does not cross the line of scrimmage can be recovered and advanced by either team. However, if offensive team recovers it must make the yardage necessary for its first down to retain possession if punt was on fourth down.

The kicking team may never advance its own kick even though legal recovery is made beyond the line of scrimmage. Possession only.

A member of the receiving team may not run into or rough a kicker who kicks from behind his line unless contact is:

(a) Incidental to and after he had touched ball in flight.

(b) Caused by kicker’s own motions.

(c) Occurs during a quick kick, or a kick made after a run behind the line, or after kicker recovers a loose ball on the ground. Ball is loose when kicker muffs snap or snap hits ground.

(d) Defender is blocked into kicker.

The penalty for running into the kicker is 5 yards. For roughing the kicker: 15 yards, an automatic first down and disqualification if flagrant.

If a member of the kicking team attempting to down the ball on or inside opponent’s 5-yard line carries the ball into the end zone, it is a touchback.

Fouls during a punt are enforced from the previous spot (line of scrimmage).

Exception: Illegal touching, fair-catch interference, invalid fair-catch signal, or personal foul (blocking after a fair-catch signal).

While the ball is in the air or rolling on the ground following a punt or field-goal attempt and receiving team commits a foul only before or after gaining possession, receiving team will retain possession and will be penalized for its foul.

It will be illegal for a defensive player to jump or stand on any player, or be picked up by a teammate or to use a hand or hands on a teammate to gain additional height in an attempt to block a kick (Penalty: 15 yards, unsportsmanlike conduct).

A punted ball remains a kicked ball until it is declared dead or in possession of either team.

Any member of the punting team may down the ball anywhere in the field of play. However, it is illegal touching (Official’s time out and receiver’s ball at spot of illegal touching). This foul does not offset any foul by receivers during the down.

Defensive team may advance all kicks from scrimmage (including unsuccessful field goal) whether or not ball crosses defensive team’s goal line. Rules pertaining to kicks from scrimmage apply until defensive team gains possession.

When a team presents a punt formation, defensive pass interference is not to be called for actions on the widest player eligible to go beyond line. Defensive holding may be called.
GermanGilbert  
#11 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:46:29 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Falling on it is wise because it prevents one of the other Packers players from touching it and then the Ravens getting it and marching down the field. Dunno, seems like the obvious wise choice to me.


The ball was almost dead when Kuhn tried to scoop it up. Thus, grabbing it up didn't save field position and the possibility that the ball would have hit another Packer was non-existent, IMO. Just staying away would have been the better option, I guess.


GermanGilbert  
#12 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:54:09 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Edit, trying to find the NFL rules on a Punt Block and haven't found a solid source. All I find is that when a punt is blocked, either team can recover the ball. However, the TV analysts said something about if the Ravens recovered, they couldn't advance it. I keep finding contradicting information on that, although, not sure its credible.



Quote:
Any punt that is blocked and does not cross the line of scrimmage can be recovered and advanced by either team. However, if offensive team recovers it must make the yardage necessary for its first down to retain possession if punt was on fourth down.


The bold part is the important part of it. Koch's punt did cross the LOS and thus is considered as just a "short punt" which the Ravens just could have downed without gaining posession. With Kuhn touching it, it was a live ball again, just like a muffed punt.
mi_keys  
#13 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:03:39 PM(UTC)
To build on GermanGilbert's comments:

Quote:
FIRST TOUCHING BEYOND THE LINE
Article 2 “First touching” is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers.


http://static.nfl.com/st...Rule9_Scrimmage_Kick.pdf

I'm assuming that language is up to date. The announcers (not that there always right) reiterated this rule during the play and this is how I've always remembered it to be structured. Conceptually, the rule is in place as it is because a partially blocked punt would actually be an advantage for the kicking team if the block was treated as a muffed punt.
Zero2Cool  
#14 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:19:28 PM(UTC)
Kuhn trying to scoop an run, dumb.
Kuhn falling on it and securing it, smart.

You fall on it and secure it removing any doubt of whether your team touched the ball after the line of scrimmage. If Kuhn and others scatter and it had deflected off a Packers player passed the line of scrimmage, that's a mistake in judgement. You can't play the game like that. You control what you can control. Ball is loose, you fall on it.
GermanGilbert  
#15 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:47:05 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
Kuhn trying to scoop an run, dumb.
Kuhn falling on it and securing it, smart.

You fall on it and secure it removing any doubt of whether your team touched the ball after the line of scrimmage. If Kuhn and others scatter and it had deflected off a Packers player passed the line of scrimmage, that's a mistake in judgement. You can't play the game like that. You control what you can control. Ball is loose, you fall on it.


Kuhn falling on it AND securing it, smart. But just with the combination of both. But how many times in the game of football the ball pops out after a player was falling on it? Way too often IMO. If Kuhn fall on the ball and didn't secure it, the play would also have ended up on the "dumb side" of this thread, wouldn't it? ;)



Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 2:02:40 PM(UTC)
GermanGilbert said: Go to Quoted Post
Kuhn falling on it AND securing it, smart. But just with the combination of both. But how many times in the game of football the ball pops out after a player was falling on it? Way too often IMO. If Kuhn fall on the ball and didn't secure it, the play would also have ended up on the "dumb side" of this thread, wouldn't it? ;)





No. You try to control the outcome as much as you can. If Kuhn KNEW 100% no one touched it, I agree, run away and hope the other two players do the same. What are the chances the other two guys know the ball wasn't touched by one of their players?

The wisest choice to me is clear. You control the outcome. You fall on it and secure it. No doubt we've seen folks fall on it and it squirt out, but I'd rather a player try to be smart, than just twiddle his thumbs HOPING no player on his team touches it.


Plus, if you fall on it, then you get the ball right there, instead of watching the ball continue bounce down the field losing more and more field position.


Control what you can control. Fall on it and secure it. That's the wise play. To me anyway, but again, I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree :)
macbob  
#17 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 4:14:12 PM(UTC)
I would say Kuhn getting anywhere near the ball dumb. All we had to do was not touch it and it was our ball.

But then again, I also ragged on Jeremy Ross for that kickoff he grabbed as it was going OB, so I obviously don't know some of these ST rules as well as I should.

D'oh...
nyrpack  
#18 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 4:20:08 PM(UTC)
kuhn play was dumb, but as ive said for quite ahile he is a overrated player imo, for a long time now !!
mi_keys  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:48:34 PM(UTC)
Zero2Cool said: Go to Quoted Post
No. You try to control the outcome as much as you can. If Kuhn KNEW 100% no one touched it, I agree, run away and hope the other two players do the same. What are the chances the other two guys know the ball wasn't touched by one of their players?

The wisest choice to me is clear. You control the outcome. You fall on it and secure it. No doubt we've seen folks fall on it and it squirt out, but I'd rather a player try to be smart, than just twiddle his thumbs HOPING no player on his team touches it.


Plus, if you fall on it, then you get the ball right there, instead of watching the ball continue bounce down the field losing more and more field position.


Control what you can control. Fall on it and secure it. That's the wise play. To me anyway, but again, I'm not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree :)


It wasn't even remotely close to having touched any of our players... until Kuhn, of course.
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