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Online Mucky Tundra  
#1 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:00:33 AM(UTC)
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Mike Florio wrote:
So how did the Browns end up signing a guy with a torn ACL from the Packers' practice squad? The guy in question, receiver Charles Johnson, had a torn ACL that no one knew about. When a player is signed from another team's practice squad, a physical isn't given before the player joins the team. ...


Well, that might explain why he never really got going. Another feather in the cap for the Green Bay Packers medical team.
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Offline wpr  
#2 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:03:47 AM(UTC)
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ouch. That is rather shocking.
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Offline Dulak  
#3 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:07:57 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
ouch. That is rather shocking.


damn ya - so he is signed byt he browns and has a partially torn acl - and this is the same thing bulaga had and he decided to get surgery huh ...

funny enough - our Oline isnt as bad off as we thought this year ...

Online Zero2Cool  
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:17:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dulak Go to Quoted Post
damn ya - so he is signed byt he browns and has a partially torn acl - and this is the same thing bulaga had and he decided to get surgery huh ...

funny enough - our Oline isnt as bad off as we thought this year ...



He's been sacked 14 times in five games. That's on pace for 44 sacks for the season.

Although, the run blocking I think has done a good job. Pass blocking, not so much.
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Offline Pack93z  
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:18:18 AM(UTC)
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Well... as bad as the miss looks for us... for the team as a whole it probably assists us.

Johnson should be returned to us.. while we pick up the surgery costs and place him on IR.. we also would retain his rights moving forward. Gives us a second look at him if we want next season.
I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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wpr on 10/17/2013(UTC), texaspackerbacker on 10/17/2013(UTC), nerdmann on 10/17/2013(UTC)
Offline beast  
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:06:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
Well... as bad as the miss looks for us... for the team as a whole it probably assists us.

Johnson should be returned to us.. while we pick up the surgery costs and place him on IR.. we also would retain his rights moving forward. Gives us a second look at him if we want next season.


I know you said "should be", but I'm checking about what is going to happen...

Are the Packers going to get his rights back? Or the Browns going to keep his rights?

I thought the Browns got to keep his rights, since they signed him.
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Offline nerdmann  
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:47:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I know you said "should be", but I'm checking about what is going to happen...

Are the Packers going to get his rights back? Or the Browns going to keep his rights?

I thought the Browns got to keep his rights, since they signed him.


If he failed his physical, he should revert back.

But I agree, you gotta wonder, wtf. smh

This is the same group that forced Nick Collins to retire after a completely unnecessary surgery.
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Offline steveishere  
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:55:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
If he failed his physical, he should revert back.

But I agree, you gotta wonder, wtf. smh

This is the same group that forced Nick Collins to retire after a completely unnecessary surgery.


The Browns already signed him to a contract so they will probably IR him. He's theirs.

Nick Collins hasn't been forced to retire he's free to play for any team in the league.
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wpr on 10/17/2013(UTC)
Offline nerdmann  
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:17:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
The Browns already signed him to a contract so they will probably IR him. He's theirs.

Nick Collins hasn't been forced to retire he's free to play for any team in the league.


The contract should be contingent upon passing the physical. That's what's happened in the past when there've been trades and whatnot, iirc.

Then again the Packers might not even want him.
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Offline steveishere  
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 12:52:24 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
The contract should be contingent upon passing the physical. That's what's happened in the past when there've been trades and whatnot, iirc.

Then again the Packers might not even want him.


I don't think it is, the contract is contingent on him signing his name to it. Trades are contingent on a player passing a physical but when you sign a player off somebody's practice squad you have to sign them to your team for at least 2 weeks so they already gave him a contract. This wasn't a trade or anything where another team is getting compensation it's not really any different from signing any FA.
Offline Pack93z  
#11 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:08:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
I don't think it is, the contract is contingent on him signing his name to it. Trades are contingent on a player passing a physical but when you sign a player off somebody's practice squad you have to sign them to your team for at least 2 weeks so they already gave him a contract. This wasn't a trade or anything where another team is getting compensation it's not really any different from signing any FA.


But it is more like a waiver wire pick up but with the minimum roster requirement.. they caught this on the introductory physical to join practices. If you waive a player injured, the player is protected as they have to be put on the IR and waived injured with financial compensation. It also protects the next team in signing damaged goods.

I fail to see how the contract would not be voided.. unless it is a loophole in the rules.. otherwise why not expose more injured players to the practice squad to circumvent the IR rules.. they can be called up at any time. Once teams start stashing injured players on the PS, it will really make an opposing team pluck someone off your PS.

And once the player is healthy.. they can be called up at a moments notice.

Message modified by user Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:40:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I think when there's enough will and aggression, there's no shortage of talent either.

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nerdmann on 10/17/2013(UTC)
Offline yooperfan  
#12 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:23:31 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
The contract should be contingent upon passing the physical. That's what's happened in the past when there've been trades and whatnot, iirc.

Then again the Packers might not even want him.


This wasn't a trade.
Too bad for Cleveland.
My question is: why did the Packers medical crew not know this and allow him to practice with the taxi squad, or did they?

Offline steveishere  
#13 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:31:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
This wasn't a trade.
Too bad for Cleveland.
My question is: why did the Packers medical crew not know this and allow him to practice with the taxi squad, or did they?



He probably didn't say anything about it and they didn't know.
Offline yooperfan  
#14 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:53:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
He probably didn't say anything about it and they didn't know.


I have to think that in the NFL today, that any teams medical crew would be more on top of things than just taking a players word.
Perhaps that's why the Packers are so beset with serious injuries.

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nerdmann on 10/17/2013(UTC), TheKanataThrilla on 10/17/2013(UTC)
Offline wpr  
#15 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 1:57:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
But it is more like a waiver wire pick up but with the minimum roster requirement.. they caught this on the introductory physical to join practices. If you waive a player injured, the player is protected as they have to be put on the IR and waived injured with financial compensation. It also protects the next team in signing damaged goods.

I fail to see how the contract would not be voided.. unless it is a loophole in the rules.. otherwise why not expose more injured players to the practice squad to circumvent the IR rules.. they can be called up at any time. Once teams start stashing injured players on the PS, it will really make an opposing team pluck someone off your PS.

And once the player is healthy.. they can be called up at a moments notice.


I can't imagine the loophole being in the players favor even with union negotiators.
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Offline steveishere  
#16 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 2:02:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
I have to think that in the NFL today, that any teams medical crew would be more on top of things than just taking a players word.
Perhaps that's why the Packers are so beset with serious injuries.



What like make them take a lie detector before practice and ask if they are injured?
Offline sschind  
#17 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 4:54:38 PM(UTC)
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From what i understand they signed him so he is theirs. He has to stay on the 53 man roster for 2 more weeks (its 3 weeks but he signed before their last game so that counts as 1) then they can put him on IR and replace him.

Whether the contact should be voided or should be contingent upon passing a physical (it isn't) is open for debate but mostly it sounds like Packers fans arguing for it because they want him back to stash him on their own IR.
I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
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Offline beast  
#18 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:23:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
From what i understand they signed him so he is theirs. He has to stay on the 53 man roster for 2 more weeks (its 3 weeks but he signed before their last game so that counts as 1) then they can put him on IR and replace him.
Whether the contact should be voided or should be contingent upon passing a physical (it isn't) is open for debate but mostly it sounds like Packers fans arguing for it because they want him back to stash him on their own IR.


I agree with this. I don't think the NFL will do anything, and therefor the Browns will be able to keep him. (not saying it's right nor proper according to the rules, but I think NFL will turn a blind eye to this)
Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
But it is more like a waiver wire pick up but with the minimum roster requirement.. they caught this on the introductory physical to join practices. If you waive a player injured, the player is protected as they have to be put on the IR and waived injured with financial compensation. It also protects the next team in signing damaged goods.


Yes... and no. When it's known the player is injured, you're totally right. But this is more like when it's unknown.

I agree with your augrement. But I'm also thinking the NFL is going to avoid this one and nothing is going to happen (unless someone is able to complain enough, but since he's now on the 53 man roster IR, I don't sure why the player, agent, NFLPA would complain. I don't think the Browns are going to complain, and the Packers are the ones that screwed up, so they might not complain either.)

Originally Posted by: Pack93z Go to Quoted Post
I fail to see how the contract would not be voided..


Simple, NFL wants to avoid admitting one of their teams made a mistake and if the Browns, Packers, player, agent and NFLPA don't complain then the issue is going away as fast as it popped up.

If forced to come up with an arguement for doing nothing, I think the NFL would just say, as a practice squad players, he was a FA (yes avoiding that he might of been hurt before being released by the Packers) and point out that being put on the 53 man roster gets him more money than he would of on the practice squad. But NFL normally avoids the direct issue when explaining things and put to the parts that agree with them.


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Offline nerdmann  
#19 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:02:51 PM(UTC)
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Offline sschind  
#20 Posted : Thursday, October 17, 2013 8:15:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I agree with this. I don't think the NFL will do anything, and therefor the Browns will be able to keep him. (not saying it's right nor proper according to the rules, but I think NFL will turn a blind eye to this)




Its not that they won't do anything, they can't do anything because there is nothing to do. I don't know what you mean about it being right and proper because it is right and proper. The Browns signed a guy off the practice squad and put him on their 53 man roster. That is all they had to do according to the rules. People are trying to read way more into this than there is. Packers fans seem to want to think that the Browns did something wrong, or are doing something wrong. They did not and they are not.

If the Browns wanted to void the contract they might be able to claim that someone was hiding something but since the Packers did not benefit anything from it they (the Browns) would be hard pressed to prove any deception on the part of the Packers. They may be able to claim Johnson knew and hid it but again, how can they prove it. Unless there is a doctor visit somewhere on record that says he had the injury before the signing there is really nothing they can prove. Besides, it doesn't sound like they want to contest it (if that is what you want to call it) anyway.

Face it Packers fans, Johnson got away and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#21 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2013 3:39:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
Its not that they won't do anything, they can't do anything because there is nothing to do. I don't know what you mean about it being right and proper because it is right and proper. The Browns signed a guy off the practice squad and put him on their 53 man roster. That is all they had to do according to the rules. People are trying to read way more into this than there is. Packers fans seem to want to think that the Browns did something wrong, or are doing something wrong. They did not and they are not.

If the Browns wanted to void the contract they might be able to claim that someone was hiding something but since the Packers did not benefit anything from it they (the Browns) would be hard pressed to prove any deception on the part of the Packers. They may be able to claim Johnson knew and hid it but again, how can they prove it. Unless there is a doctor visit somewhere on record that says he had the injury before the signing there is really nothing they can prove. Besides, it doesn't sound like they want to contest it (if that is what you want to call it) anyway.

Face it Packers fans, Johnson got away and there is nothing anyone can do about it.



Basically, I agree with you. It ain't as if this was a trade where the Packers got something for him. The Browns clearly went from smart bargain hunter to victim, and Johnson benefited - by deception assuming he knew his condition, by luck if he didn't. He might, however, end up regretting it, because previously, the Packers would have paid for surgery if needed. Now, if the Browns think he cheated them and win their case, it's possible neither team would have to pay. The Packers could re-sign him if that happened, of course, but 4.3 speed probably would have become 4.5 or so, and we might not want him.

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Offline djcubez  
#22 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2013 10:28:26 AM(UTC)
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From what I understand any team can sign a player from another teams practice quad to their 53 man roster. When that happens, the team whose practice quad the player is on has a chance to match the offer and place that player on their 53 man roster or let them go. Also from what I understand, teams that sign players off another teams practice squad are not allowed to give that player a physical until the player has accepted the offer and is on the roster.

With that said, Charles Johnson is already officially a Cleveland Browns player. The physical was done after they signed him. Basically the signing is not contingent on a physical, but rather the player being signed cannot be given a physical until after he's on the team. This makes snatch-and-grabs like this one a little more risky.

EDIT: Best article I could find on it: http://www.cbssports.com...ace-player-with-torn-acl

Quote:
Because Johnson was a practice squad player with another team, the Browns were unable to give him a physical until after they signed him. Since Cleveland signed Johnson from the Packers practice squad, the Browns are now stuck with him for at least two more weeks. Per NFL rules, a player that's signed off another team's practice squad has to be a part of the new team's 53-man roster for at least three games.
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Online Zero2Cool  
#23 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2013 10:37:05 AM(UTC)
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There are cases where the practice squad player does not tell his current team that a team is looking to sign him to their roster. If the player does't tell the current team prior to signing with the new team, then the 'current' team wasn't given a chance to bring them on board. This is what happened with Charles Johnson. Charles didn't tell the Packers, which per a report, left the Packers less than happy.


Edit, McCarthy on C.Johnson: "Fine young man. Wish he was here. I'm very curious to see how this pans out. I don't know if all the facts are in."
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Offline Yerko  
#24 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2013 11:49:29 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: yooperfan Go to Quoted Post
I have to think that in the NFL today, that any teams medical crew would be more on top of things than just taking a players word.
Perhaps that's why the Packers are so beset with serious injuries.



Bulaga was almost going to come back from a similar injury. They were contemplating on him playing. My guess is a torn ACL isn't something a medical crew is going to catch unless the player says something. This could easily be the case for this.

I only think that way because coming back may have been an option for Bulaga.
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Offline sschind  
#25 Posted : Friday, October 18, 2013 2:53:41 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: djcubez Go to Quoted Post
From what I understand any team can sign a player from another teams practice quad to their 53 man roster. When that happens, the team whose practice quad the player is on has a chance to match the offer and place that player on their 53 man roster or let them go. Also from what I understand, teams that sign players off another teams practice squad are not allowed to give that player a physical until the player has accepted the offer and is on the roster.




The only correction I would make to your description is that the decision is still totally up to the player. If he doesn't want to go to the new team and he wants to stay on the old team on the PS he can. It's not like waivers where the new team acquires his rights. Gurley reportedly turned down an offer to joint he vikings 53 man roster to remain on the Packers PS a few years back. Of course the Packers matched his would be salary from the vikings but that is not a requirement. It was also reported somewhere that the Packers routinely pay their PS players more than the minimum PS salary to encourage them staying.

The question then becomes why would a player refuse a spot on an active roster to stay on the practice squad? Well, in the case of Gurley it was go to a train wreck of a team and be low man on the totem pole locked into a bad situation or stay with a great team with a great passing attack and compete for a likely spot next season. He may still be low man but the low man in the Packers offense is probably much better off than the low man in the vikings offense.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
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