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Offline VinceLambeauStarr  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:11:05 AM(UTC)
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Looking at the defensive personnel on the roster, combining them with our current scheme and analyzing the players we have -: My question to you fine folk is, how close do you think this unit to being one of the better defenses in the NFL. The type of defense that doesn't need to be the absolute best, but can be relied upon to get that vital stop, interception and have those games where they overwhelm a lackluster offense.

My overall conclusion is, that with the loss of two/three key contributors in the last few years (Woodson, Collins and Jenkins) the defense has lost some of their playmaking identity, and as such is sort of at a crossroads with who they are and what they aim to achieve.

I don’t think there needs to be wholesale changes, i.e. Kansas City’s recent restructure. I do think though, that across the board there needs to subtle changes, along with one seismic one.

First off, i'll get it out the way - I think Capers needs to go NOW. It would be a different story if all of the defensive unit were inept but that isn't the case. It just isn't working and having a random fantastic week followed by three mundane weeks just oozes complacency. Fresh impetus could fire this unit to play according to their ability.

Defensive Line - Probably the strongest unit of the whole defense. Versatile enough to adapt to another scheme and relatively young. I don't think major changes here would benefit anyone. Probably want a replacement for Pickett.

Linebackers - We need better depth both outside and inside.

Secondary - Desperately missing a star. Before his decline, Woodson was that guy. Before his injury, Collins was capable of sheer brilliance at times. Williams is declining by the game.

In closing, I am of the opinion that coaching changes, plus one true superstud would somewhat resolve the defense' struggles.

How about you all?
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Offline hardrocker950  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:55:59 PM(UTC)
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I agree with this. Ever since Collins left - the secondary just hasn't been the same. Without Woodson, they have really slipped in coverage - if you can even call it "coverage." I really thought Tramon was going to be a big contributor, but as of late I don't see it. Some of the issues are the lack of talent at safety, but the schemes are just begging to be exploited. I rarely, actually never see them challenging receivers at the line - which would help slow down play development.

I think our DL and LBs are decent as far as our starters, and to a degree our backups. I believe a lot of the issues are the playcalling. I see little agression when they have 3rd and long - which is when the pressure needs to be strong. Rushing only 2-3 guys is not going to work when they are expecting a blitz - especially when it is always the same guys.

Capers being fired would not be a "knee jerk" move imo. The guy obviously is not willing to adjust the gameplan, nor is he going to change his playcalling to make up for the shortcomings in personnel. This is the definition of poor coaching and is unacceptable at the pro level. If I know better as a fan, then he HAS to know as a professional.
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Offline nerdmann  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:34:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: hardrocker950 Go to Quoted Post
I agree with this. Ever since Collins left - the secondary just hasn't been the same. Without Woodson, they have really slipped in coverage - if you can even call it "coverage." I really thought Tramon was going to be a big contributor, but as of late I don't see it. Some of the issues are the lack of talent at safety, but the schemes are just begging to be exploited. I rarely, actually never see them challenging receivers at the line - which would help slow down play development.

I think our DL and LBs are decent as far as our starters, and to a degree our backups. I believe a lot of the issues are the playcalling. I see little agression when they have 3rd and long - which is when the pressure needs to be strong. Rushing only 2-3 guys is not going to work when they are expecting a blitz - especially when it is always the same guys.

Capers being fired would not be a "knee jerk" move imo. The guy obviously is not willing to adjust the gameplan, nor is he going to change his playcalling to make up for the shortcomings in personnel. This is the definition of poor coaching and is unacceptable at the pro level. If I know better as a fan, then he HAS to know as a professional.


They players are not in position. Plain and simple.

There are bad play calls on D too. But we can sit here and blame the players all we want. But who's teaching them? You never see Edgar Bennett's guys out of position. Why's that?
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:53:43 PM(UTC)
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You got it all wrong.

Capers' schemes and blitz packages are keeping the Packers from giving up even more on defense. The personnel - basically everybody other than Matthews is pretty mediocre. The weakness didn't seem so glaring with Rodgers enabling the Packers to outscore teams, but the D basically is what it is, and we have Ted Thompson to thank/blame for that.
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Offline Laser Gunns  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 3:08:33 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
You got it all wrong.

Capers' schemes and blitz packages are keeping the Packers from giving up even more on defense. The personnel - basically everybody other than Matthews is pretty mediocre. The weakness didn't seem so glaring with Rodgers enabling the Packers to outscore teams, but the D basically is what it is, and we have Ted Thompson to thank/blame for that.


Can't believe it.. But I agree with TPB on something.

Our front 7 is making 1on1 blocking look the the great fucking wall. Nobody is winning those.





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Offline nerdmann  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:32:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: RajiRoar Go to Quoted Post
Can't believe it.. But I agree with TPB on something.

Our front 7 is making 1on1 blocking look the the great f*cking wall. Nobody is winning those.





Bullshit.

We were what, 3rd in the league in rushing D until two weeks ago? Ted is a genius the way he stocks this team. What other team could even have half these injures and still have any hope whatsoever?

It's just for whatever reason, guys in the back are out of position and the guys in the front aren't on the field.
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Offline play2win  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:11:33 AM(UTC)
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Do the Packers put a waiver claim in for Ed Reed? I don't see how that could hurt. Doubt highly we would get him, but I would love to see that happen.

Having a better presence at S opposite Burnett would help immensely. Clearing up the Hayward issue would help too. Get someone who has a healthy set of legs under him in there. Hyde and House looked to be coming along very well together in our secondary prior to Hayward's attempted comeback.

As for Capers, I think looking for a change in that guard midseason is wishful thinking, and I am with you on it. I think a change would shake up this defense, and make them more accountable. I just don't think McCarthy works that way.

They have to do something though, because the attrition through injury at LB has adversely affected our options running the 3-4. We have a boatload of healthy, able DL, ready to play. A scheme switch to a 4-3 might help the D overall. CJ Wilson, Josh Boyd and Jerel Worthy have yet to see the field of play. Why not give them a go? Those are the things I would like to see changed now to get our D playing better.

If we do implement a scheme change, Capers might be just the guy to make it successful, so, I would hesitate to run him out of town. I'm hot and cold on that. Dom Capers is a highly accomplished DC. He didn't have the tools he needed up front the past couple of years. Now, he has them, IMO, but the back end of our D is in some flux. We still need that major upgrade at S, two seasons after the loss of Collins. Maybe the help comes in the form of Sean Richardson. Maybe Ed Reed...
Offline hardrocker950  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:23:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Do the Packers put a waiver claim in for Ed Reed? I don't see how that could hurt. Doubt highly we would get him, but I would love to see that happen.

Having a better presence at S opposite Burnett would help immensely. Clearing up the Hayward issue would help too. Get someone who has a healthy set of legs under him in there. Hyde and House looked to be coming along very well together in our secondary prior to Hayward's attempted comeback.

As for Capers, I think looking for a change in that guard midseason is wishful thinking, and I am with you on it. I think a change would shake up this defense, and make them more accountable. I just don't think McCarthy works that way.

They have to do something though, because the attrition through injury at LB has adversely affected our options running the 3-4. We have a boatload of healthy, able DL, ready to play. A scheme switch to a 4-3 might help the D overall. CJ Wilson, Josh Boyd and Jerel Worthy have yet to see the field of play. Why not give them a go? Those are the things I would like to see changed now to get our D playing better.


Ya, I saw that Houston let Reed go. I have to guess he has dropped off - I haven't really been following Houston, so I can only speculate. Although our safety personnel leaves a lot to be desired, I'm not sure he is what we need. Along with that, it would be shocking if Ted even considered a FA safety because...well - we are talking about TT. Ed is getting old in NFL years - so the only way I even see it as a possibility is a low end contract.
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Offline steveishere  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:26:08 AM(UTC)
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I think it's highly questionable whether Ed Reed would be a "better" presence. It's not like Houston has some great prospects at that position that just bumped him off the roster. He got released because he's been bad.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:58:04 AM(UTC)
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The good side of Ted Thompson is he doesn't grab a lot of has-beens. I don't think he goes after Reed, and I'm satisfied that way.

As for Capers schemes and the relative success against the run game early on, Capers ain't just about blitz packages; He is good at designing a D to stop whatever he sees as the primary threat. The problem is, without adequate personnel, that opens up something else.

What do you prefer, a bland D that doesn't stop much of anything - which basically is what we had before Capers? Or a chess game that may work out and shut down whatever the opponent does best or may flop and let lesser threats hit us hard? When we had Rodgers playing, this question wasn't all that critical - win 45-17 or win 45-31? Who cares, a win is a win. But without that high-powered O from Rodgers, it makes all the difference.

I'd still rather have what Capers gives us instead of what came before. And the WORST thing would be to fire him and keep the same D without his brains behind it.
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Offline DarkaneRules  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 8:29:56 AM(UTC)
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I hope no one is suggesting firing Capers in season. Let the season play out and have faith the entire personnel and coaching staff will be evaluated by Mark and Ted.

I see a 3-4 defense right now decimated with injury at its most crucial position: Outside Linebacker. We have one healthy OLB who was just drafted and is very raw, Nate Palmer. The best players we have to set the edge: one has a club on his hand and the other has a defective foot.

On the back-end, I see players in position more often than not, they are just not making the plays. Right now we do not have a difference maker at CB or Safety. Morgan seems to be regressing to as well. This was a shock to me and completely unacceptable. We were counting on him to continue improving.

We need to get pressure up front. We cannot get that without at least one effective OLB. This is on the players. We cannot change the scheme just because a position has been decimated with injury. It is playmaking there that is the problem not the scheme.

Same goes with the backend. We need these guys to make plays. They will make more if we get more pressure. We need to upgrade the safety position, Morgan needs to play better, and at least one CB needs to step up and make up for the average play of the other guys.
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Offline nerdmann  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:23:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DarkaneRules Go to Quoted Post
I hope no one is suggesting firing Capers in season. Let the season play out and have faith the entire personnel and coaching staff will be evaluated by Mark and Ted.

I see a 3-4 defense right now decimated with injury at its most crucial position: Outside Linebacker. We have one healthy OLB who was just drafted and is very raw, Nate Palmer. The best players we have to set the edge: one has a club on his hand and the other has a defective foot.

On the back-end, I see players in position more often than not, they are just not making the plays. Right now we do not have a difference maker at CB or Safety. Morgan seems to be regressing to as well. This was a shock to me and completely unacceptable. We were counting on him to continue improving.

We need to get pressure up front. We cannot get that without at least one effective OLB. This is on the players. We cannot change the scheme just because a position has been decimated with injury. It is playmaking there that is the problem not the scheme.

Same goes with the backend. We need these guys to make plays. They will make more if we get more pressure. We need to upgrade the safety position, Morgan needs to play better, and at least one CB needs to step up and make up for the average play of the other guys.


I see a 3-4 that has never had a dominant OLB on the other side of Clay, in all these years.

And as for the back end, they leave guys uncovered.

Capers was on the hot seat to start the season. His D was looking very good, but now it's begun to shit itself again, badly. Time to make a case for tenure, or we go get Lovey Smith. Jim Bates will be the backup plan. lol
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Offline DoddPower  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:39:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
I see a 3-4 that has never had a dominant OLB on the other side of Clay, in all these years.

And as for the back end, they leave guys uncovered.

Capers was on the hot seat to start the season. His D was looking very good, but now it's begun to sh!t itself again, badly. Time to make a case for tenure, or we go get Lovey Smith. Jim Bates will be the backup plan. lol


Yeah, to me, it's not just about this season or the excuses that one could find for Capers. There's more than enough evidence to show that he's nothing more than an average defensive coordinator, and very often absolutely horrible, especially when it matters most against top tier teams. I don't see how that can be good enough, but perhaps I would be a more hard-ass boss than Ted Thompson and/or Mike McCarthy.
Offline nerdmann  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:01:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
Yeah, to me, it's not just about this season or the excuses that one could find for Capers. There's more than enough evidence to show that he's nothing more than an average defensive coordinator, and very often absolutely horrible, especially when it matters most against top tier teams. I don't see how that can be good enough, but perhaps I would be a more hard-ass boss than Ted Thompson and/or Mike McCarthy.


Dom can at least do it with smoke and mirrors when he needs to. That's something that Bob Sanders could never do.

But his unit has shit itself in grand fashion the past two weeks, when we needed them most. And it isn't the first time they have done so. His guys continuously let WRs run uncovered.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Online Mucky Tundra  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:41:18 AM(UTC)
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To echo some the people who agree Capers needs to go, it's not so much as a recent thing as things that continually happen. I feel that there's enough talent on D (save for the black hole at S since Collins was lost) but for whatever reason isn't properly used/not motivated properly/whatever. Regardless of whoever is charge of the D next year I wouldn't mind having Greene as Assistant DC or something so that way when someone half asses it or misses a tackle they can hear an ear full when they get back to the sideline. Not only that, but a "kick-ass" DC/assistant DC would play off McCarthy's more mellow demeanor.
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Offline DoddPower  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 12:52:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Dom can at least do it with smoke and mirrors when he needs to. That's something that Bob Sanders could never do.

But his unit has sh!t itself in grand fashion the past two weeks, when we needed them most. And it isn't the first time they have done so. His guys continuously let WRs run uncovered.


Yeah, he's better than Bob Sanders, but that certainly isn't saying much, and doesn't comfort me at all.
Offline nerdmann  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:57:47 PM(UTC)
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I was thinking maybe he just got exposed trying to do it with smoke and mirrors in the absence of Clay.

But that has nothing to do with the safeties playing Keystone Kops. I mean the unit is a blooper reel, week after week, providing the margin of defeat.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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Offline steveishere  
#18 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 3:37:32 PM(UTC)
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What looks really bad for Capers is how destroyed the defense got week 1 against a QB that's shown throughout the rest of the season that he struggles mightily if he has to make more than 1 read. Absolutely shredded by a passing offense that has been more or less shut down in every single other team all while the D was mostly healthy. It wasn't just guys getting beat either it was just wide open holes in the D. That game he was completely and absolutely out coached. As has been the case IMO more often than not.

Stuff like that added to 3 absolute embarrassments (all-time bad type) in playoff games just keeps me from buying all of the excuses for the guy. At some point the responsibility is on Dom.
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Offline DoddPower  
#19 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 4:44:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
What looks really bad for Capers is how destroyed the defense got week 1 against a QB that's shown throughout the rest of the season that he struggles mightily if he has to make more than 1 read. Absolutely shredded by a passing offense that has been more or less shut down in every single other team all while the D was mostly healthy. It wasn't just guys getting beat either it was just wide open holes in the D. That game he was completely and absolutely out coached. As has been the case IMO more often than not.

Stuff like that added to 3 absolute embarrassments (all-time bad type) in playoff games just keeps me from buying all of the excuses for the guy. At some point the responsibility is on Dom.


Yeah, it's one thing to get beat or out-coached. But to allow ALL TIME embarrassments is pathetic, especially in the playoffs. That sounds like an average at best defensive coordinator, not a good one; and certainly not a "great defensive mastermind."

As I have said several times, the Packers could probably find a way to do worse than Dom Capers, but I can't imagine they couldn't find a way to do better.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#20 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:09:37 PM(UTC)
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You would think somebody from this message board would be able to walk in and replace Both McCarthy and Capers and turn out a perfect season.

All the talent experts here that the NFL has just missed. Truth is, none of us really know what we are talking about. We like to act like we know what a players responsibility was on any particular play, but we are just guessing.
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Offline steveishere  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, November 13, 2013 7:31:30 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
You would think somebody from this message board would be able to walk in and replace Both McCarthy and Capers and turn out a perfect season.

All the talent experts here that the NFL has just missed. Truth is, none of us really know what we are talking about. We like to act like we know what a players responsibility was on any particular play, but we are just guessing.


Ok, I guess we all just stop posting then until an expert shows up and makes a post. Then we can read what he writes and just agree with it and let that be it.
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Offline hardrocker950  
#22 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:49:02 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
You would think somebody from this message board would be able to walk in and replace Both McCarthy and Capers and turn out a perfect season.

All the talent experts here that the NFL has just missed. Truth is, none of us really know what we are talking about. We like to act like we know what a players responsibility was on any particular play, but we are just guessing.


First off - you don't know everyone's history on here. For all you know there could be members of this board with SB rings. Who are you to call out the whole board?

Second - many of us DO know what we are talking about. Just because Mike McCarthy didn't give us every playcall from the game doesn't mean we are all clueless. It doesn't take an NFL head coach to figure most assignments out.

Most importantly - this is a discussion forum correct? I don't think I need to elaborate on this one.
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Offline play2win  
#23 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:03:28 AM(UTC)
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I would venture to guess Ed Reed added to our roster would make a positive impact in our secondary. He is a Pro's pro. While older at 35, I think he would still provide us better coverage than either of McMillian or Jennings. Last year Reed had 4 INTs and 15 PDs (McMillian had 1 and 5, Jennings 1 and 2) in helping BAL win the Super Bowl. I believe he would welcome the change in scenery from HOU to GB (for whatever reason, HOU did not seem a good fit), and that this team would be glad to have him. The Packers could provide one last legitimate shot at another SB ring for Reed, and Reed added to our secondary might be able to help them get there. To me, this would be a welcome signing.

Figure, if Rodgers can come back in 4 weeks, and we steal a couple of wins while he is out, we could be poised for a good run. Adding Reed now might be a real shot in the arm for this defense. One of the best pure Safeties ever to play the game. A lot of good stuff could rub off on this defense, and some of our younger players. I bet Tramon Williams would love it.

As doubtful as I am about it becoming a reality, I would love to see GB sign Ed Reed.

Jets are already showing interest… C'mon Ted, steal him away!

Let's put it this way, if we were to release 2 Safeties and add 2 more, I'd be very happy with Reed and Richardson vs. McMillian and Jennings. Those two have played that poorly through 9 games this season, and all of last season. That's 27 games of really poor play by both players. What do we really have to lose? We've got everything to gain by upgrading the play opposite Burnett.

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Offline DarkaneRules  
#24 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:33:38 AM(UTC)
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The guy cleared waivers. I really think he is done. What little I saw of him in Houston was not impressive at all.
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Offline play2win  
#25 Posted : Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:35:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DarkaneRules Go to Quoted Post
The guy cleared waivers. I really think he is done. What little I saw of him in Houston was not impressive at all.


He might be. Offseason hip surgery. I just wonder where he is at physically.

I was thinking, if healthy...
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DarkaneRules on 11/14/2013(UTC)
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20h / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

21h / Green Bay Packers Talk / packman82

22h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / rabidgopher04

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

26-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / nerdmann

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Rios39

25-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

24-Nov / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr