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Offline DakotaT  
#1 Posted : Sunday, December 8, 2013 7:45:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
It's hard for me to have much satisfaction if "my" team doesn't win the Super Bowl. "Moral victories" don't do a whole lot for me, especially when a team has an elite QB. If losing a few more games allows a team to retool, address weaknesses, and win a Super Bowl in the next season or two, than I certainly would be OK with it. Of course, there's no guarantee that will happen. But generally, I think it's a fairly safe bet that drafting in the top 10 gives a team a better chance of obtaining a franchise changing player than drafting in the late 20's. Obviously nothing is ever guaranteed, though.

Fortunately for the Packers, they are still in a good position for this season, so they don't have to even think about any of this. Players and coaches really shouldn't either, because they have a job to do. I don't see any problem with the thoughts crossing the fans minds, though. As I've said several times, making it to the playoffs and getting embarrassed in the wildcard or divisional round doesn't make me feel any better than only winning a few games and getting a high draft pick. That, of course, is predicated on the assumption that with a healthy Aaron Rodgers and weaknesses addressed, that the Packers will easily be a contender again next season.


I agree with you, winning division championship really doesn't do anything for me.I always thought of the Sherman Packers as an epic failure. They had Farve and Ahman Green in the prime of their careers, and it was the same crap every year in the playoffs. It was great getting that 2010 Super Bowl Championship, but eerily I see the same thing happening now as what happened to the Packers in the late 90's and early 00's. I hope I'm wrong of course, but defenses have caught up to McCarthy and Dom's act is as fresh as a Kiss concert.
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Offline nerdmann  
#2 Posted : Sunday, December 8, 2013 7:52:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I agree with you, winning division championship really doesn't do anything for me.I always thought of the Sherman Packers as an epic failure. They had Farve and Ahman Green in the prime of their careers, and it was the same crap every year in the playoffs. It was great getting that 2010 Super Bowl Championship, but eerily I see the same thing happening now as what happened to the Packers in the late 90's and early 00's. I hope I'm wrong of course, but defenses have caught up to McCarthy and Dom's act is as fresh as a Kiss concert.


The Sherman years were a great lesson for me.

They were always using the draft to fill holes, paste things over to make "one last run," every year.

Ted's been starting to draft like that. I really feel that the BPA philosophy is where it's at, even when it does end up leaving big holes in the roster at times. How many preferred starters have we lost this year? And we're still in contention. That's a deep team.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Offline play2win  
#3 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 6:26:17 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I agree with you, winning division championship really doesn't do anything for me.I always thought of the Sherman Packers as an epic failure. They had Farve and Ahman Green in the prime of their careers, and it was the same crap every year in the playoffs. It was great getting that 2010 Super Bowl Championship, but eerily I see the same thing happening now as what happened to the Packers in the late 90's and early 00's. I hope I'm wrong of course, but defenses have caught up to McCarthy and Dom's act is as fresh as a Kiss concert.


Couldn't agree more. Defenses caught up to McCarthy in 2011, two years ago, and it still seems predictable. As for Dom, we've kept inadequate players and schemes for the last 3 years, hoping something changes. Seems idiotic.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#4 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 6:32:31 AM(UTC)
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Saying division championships mean nothing to you, is basically the epitome of being a spoiled fan who doesn't appreciate the accomplishment and one of which of someone who did not have to endure the 70's and/or 80's. Sad kids these days, sad kids.

Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
Couldn't agree more. Defenses caught up to McCarthy in 2011, two years ago, and it still seems predictable. As for Dom, we've kept inadequate players and schemes for the last 3 years, hoping something changes. Seems idiotic.


You think defenses caught up with the franchise record setting green bay packers offense in 2011 while they went 15 - 1?

Defenses caught up in 2012 season when they starting put two high safeties and Packers had no running game to exploit it.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline play2win  
#5 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 8:27:54 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post

You think defenses caught up with the franchise record setting green bay packers offense in 2011 while they went 15 - 1?

Defenses caught up in 2012 season when they starting put two high safeties and Packers had no running game to exploit it.


When was the blueprint established? Yeah, 2011. KC, then NYG.

It doesn't matter all that much really. Point is we rode a great wave of back shoulder throws, then the other teams in the league caught up to us. I'm not into a beat-down of this current Packers team, but I saw what happened during that time, and I've seen some difficulties since in our blocking, our OL coaching, players lined up where they shouldn't be, game mismanagement, suspect play calling, etc.

I'm just hoping they turn the corner, and it looks like they may have by pulling out the Win yesterday. I've said that I don't think this team is as bad as they have looked at times, and maybe not as good as our run D stats were indicating before facing some of the more proven backs in the NFL earlier this year. I'm hoping they can establish a wave here of good play and coaching, and ride that sucker to another Lombardi Trophy. But, a lot of magic will have to happen.

Maybe Sean Richardson does something to help the others around him in our secondary. Maybe our DL comes alive with the return of Jolly, and starts playing at a really high level. Maybe our LBs will play better. Maybe our OL gets in a good groove, and our play calling in the run and pass games help us realize a string of Wins.

All I know, if Rodgers comes back and plays at a high level, and Dom's D can put this together, and we manage to win the division with a string of Ws, there's no reason to think we don't have a chance to repeat our 2010 season success.

As for winning the Division Championship, I get where Dakota is coming from. It can be somewhat meaningless if the team isn't prepared to do more than that in the playoffs. Get everybody on the same page and run with this. If we can't do that, then what is the point?

Message modified by user Monday, December 9, 2013 8:47:25 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline DoddPower  
#6 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 9:32:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Saying division championships mean nothing to you, is basically the epitome of being a spoiled fan who doesn't appreciate the accomplishment and one of which of someone who did not have to endure the 70's and/or 80's. Sad kids these days, sad kids.


I think you are missing the point. From my perspective, the Packers may not EVER have a QB as good as Aaron Rodgers again. Packer fans are truly lucky, and most of us realize that. There is no "spoiled fan" syndrome. It has everything to do with having the best player in the NFL, and as a result, the expectation of at LEAST going deep into the playoffs is very realistic. Winning the division is great, but doing so and then getting UTTERLY embarrassed in the playoffs is a complete other. If the Packers won the division and put up a good fight in the playoffs, and still lose, than that's not so hard to swallow. But getting embarrassed two years a row in the playoffs isn't a symbol of success, in my mind. Everything is relative. If the current Packers were the Jacksonville Jaguars, sure, that could be viewed as a success. The reality is, they are NOT, and the metrics of success are different for the teams. There's simply and absolutely NO reason this team should get embarrassed in the divisional round of the playoffs, yet that has happened twice in a row, and who knows when it will end. If a fan thinks that's unacceptable and you think that makes them a "spoiled fan who doesn't appreciate the accomplishment," so be it, but I think it's the exact opposite. I think many of the fans of that perspective realize what the Packers currently have in Aaron Rodgers and a few other core players, and want to take full advantage of that talent while it's available, because who knows when it will happen again (if ever). A culture of acceptance of mediocrity usually perpetuates mediocrity.

It has nothing to do with being "spoiled." It has everything to do with wanting to maximize a once in a generation player at the most important position in the game. The Packers can relish in the victory of divisions championships if and when they have an average or worse starting QB. So long as the Packers can field an average defense or better, and a good special teams unit, there's no reason they shouldn't be seriously competing for a Super Bowl every season. Maximize the team and player window while it's available, because who knows when it will come around again. For that not to be happening the past couple of seasons and instead, embarrassments in the playoffs, is incredibly disappointing because the championship window could be passing.
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Offline play2win  
#7 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 9:53:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I think you are missing the point. From my perspective, the Packers may not EVER have a QB as good as Aaron Rodgers again. Packer fans are truly lucky, and most of us realize that. There is no "spoiled fan" syndrome. It has everything to do with having the best player in the NFL, and as a result, the expectation of at LEAST going deep into the playoffs is very realistic. Winning the division is great, but doing so and then getting UTTERLY embarrassed in the playoffs is a complete other. If the Packers won the division and put up a good fight in the playoffs, and still lose, than that's not so hard to swallow. But getting embarrassed two years a row in the playoffs isn't a symbol of success, in my mind. Everything is relative. If the current Packers were the Jacksonville Jaguars, sure, that could be viewed as a success. The reality is, they are NOT, and the metrics of success are different for the teams. There's simply and absolutely NO reason this team should get embarrassed in the divisional round of the playoffs, yet that has happened twice in a row, and who knows when it will end. If a fan thinks that's unacceptable and you think that makes them a "spoiled fan who doesn't appreciate the accomplishment," so be it, but I think it's the exact opposite. I think many of the fans of that perspective realize what the Packers currently have in Aaron Rodgers and a few other core players, and want to take full advantage of that talent while it's available, because who knows when it will happen again (if ever). A culture of acceptance of mediocrity usually perpetuates mediocrity.

It has nothing to do with being "spoiled." It has everything to do with wanting to maximize a once in a generation player at the most important position in the game. The Packers can relish in the victory of divisions championships if and when they have an average or worse starting QB. So long as the Packers can field an average defense or better, and a good special teams unit, there's no reason they shouldn't be seriously competing for a Super Bowl every season. Maximize the team and player window while it's available, because who knows when it will come around again. For that not to be happening the past couple of seasons and instead, embarrassments in the playoffs, is incredibly disappointing because the championship window could be passing.


BRAVO!!!! Well said DoddPower. I couldn't have put it any better. That is exactly the way I feel, to a T.

That's why I've wanted this team to take some chances in FA, or with some trades to shore up problem areas of this team. Sure, there is a risk, but I believe it may be a greater risk to think we can do it all on the cheap, exclusively via the draft and rookie UDFA pool, with the Rodgers window where it is. Last season, to me, was lost opportunity, as was 2011. Now, in this 2013 season, we have what we have, and I hope we realize ultimate success. That is pretty much all I can do as a fan, because other teams are looking to be FAR stronger, better prepared, more cohesive, more ready to make the title run.

Limping into a Division Title through the back door is nothing I take great pride in, if we are to be wiped out in the playoffs. As proud as I might be of this team should they give us that chance… If we don't do some damage once we are in, I don't think it is me being a "spoiled rotten fan" if I'm disappointed. I've thought much has been in disarray to this point. We should have pulled out at least one more win while Rodgers was out. We are in a precarious place, and I think some things could have been done far better in his absence, and while he was in as a matter of fact. We had no business losing to CIN. We had no business throwing 42 pass attempts with Wallace and Tolzien v. PHI. Pre snap penalties, players not ready, predictable schemes as we've seen, etc.

I expect more. Call me spoiled, but I don't agree. Strike while the Aaron's HOT! Be prepared, always. Show up with your best, nothing less.
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Offline hardrocker950  
#8 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 10:39:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
BRAVO!!!! Well said DoddPower. I couldn't have put it any better. That is exactly the way I feel, to a T.

That's why I've wanted this team to take some chances in FA, or with some trades to shore up problem areas of this team. Sure, there is a risk, but I believe it may be a greater risk to think we can do it all on the cheap, exclusively via the draft and rookie UDFA pool, with the Rodgers window where it is. Last season, to me, was lost opportunity, as was 2011. Now, in this 2013 season, we have what we have, and I hope we realize ultimate success. That is pretty much all I can do as a fan, because other teams are looking to be FAR stronger, better prepared, more cohesive, more ready to make the title run.

Limping into a Division Title through the back door is nothing I take great pride in, if we are to be wiped out in the playoffs. As proud as I might be of this team should they give us that chance… If we don't do some damage once we are in, I don't think it is me being a "spoiled rotten fan" if I'm disappointed. I've thought much has been in disarray to this point. We should have pulled out at least one more win while Rodgers was out. We are in a precarious place, and I think some things could have been done far better in his absence, and while he was in as a matter of fact. We had no business losing to CIN. We had no business throwing 42 pass attempts with Wallace and Tolzien v. PHI. Pre snap penalties, players not ready, predictable schemes as we've seen, etc.

I expect more. Call me spoiled, but I don't agree. Strike while the Aaron's HOT! Be prepared, always. Show up with your best, nothing less.


Both of you hit the nail on the head. Actually Dodd's post is one of the best I have seen in a long time. There is no guarantee that we will see another elite QB in our lifetime playing for this team. I see no harm in wanting them to be in competition for the Lombardi every year - especially with the play makers we currently have. Couldn't have been said better.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#9 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 10:42:40 AM(UTC)
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Division Championship = home playoff game and a chance to win Super Bowl.

Super Bowl victories are what we measure the Packers success by, not Division Championship's. Judging from the responses, I made a mistake in assuming we all were in agreement there.

Packers were 5 - 2 with Aaron Rodgers at the helm and they might get him and Randall Cobb back soon. Most of the defense has returned healthy and Sean Richardson is looking like the future starter.

This Packers team has a chance to make a special run, but guess what ... if they don't make the playoffs we will NEVER know. And the best chance for them to get into the playoffs is winning ... the ... DIVISION.


I appreciate division championships for one main reason. It gets you into the dance. So, yes, when I see a fan say a division championship means nothing, I feel they are spoiled because for me it comes off as if they feel the Packers have to be 10 - 2 on a roll with four games go to be in the playoffs and have a chance. If that's not happening, then just TANK it for a "higher draft pick". I say fuck that. Get the best QB in the game into the playoffs and lets see where the chips fall.

No one has won the Super Bowl in the regular season. No one.

2007 Patriots 16 - 0 LOST in Super Bowl.

2011 Giants 9 - 7 WIN Super Bowl. Why can't the Packers "limp" into a home playoff game, run the table? Because the last six weeks haven't gone well without the best player on the field?


Here's another fact to think about when saying I am the one missing the point. Aaron Rodgers will not last forever. We are massively fortunate to have Rodgers follow Favre. All the more reason I want the Packers IN the playoffs EVERY season because ... you just never know who will strike it hot and make a run. Winning the division gets you into the playoffs AND home game AND a chance.
"I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything." - Nikola Tesla

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Offline play2win  
#10 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 12:18:36 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Division Championship = home playoff game and a chance to win Super Bowl.

Super Bowl victories are what we measure the Packers success by, not Division Championship's. Judging from the responses, I made a mistake in assuming we all were in agreement there.

Packers were 5 - 2 with Aaron Rodgers at the helm and they might get him and Randall Cobb back soon. Most of the defense has returned healthy and Sean Richardson is looking like the future starter.

This Packers team has a chance to make a special run, but guess what ... if they don't make the playoffs we will NEVER know. And the best chance for them to get into the playoffs is winning ... the ... DIVISION.


I appreciate division championships for one main reason. It gets you into the dance. So, yes, when I see a fan say a division championship means nothing, I feel they are spoiled because for me it comes off as if they feel the Packers have to be 10 - 2 on a roll with four games go to be in the playoffs and have a chance. If that's not happening, then just TANK it for a "higher draft pick". I say fuck that. Get the best QB in the game into the playoffs and lets see where the chips fall.

No one has won the Super Bowl in the regular season. No one.

2007 Patriots 16 - 0 LOST in Super Bowl.

2011 Giants 9 - 7 WIN Super Bowl. Why can't the Packers "limp" into a home playoff game, run the table? Because the last six weeks haven't gone well without the best player on the field?

Here's another fact to think about when saying I am the one missing the point. Aaron Rodgers will not last forever. We are massively fortunate to have Rodgers follow Favre. All the more reason I want the Packers IN the playoffs EVERY season because ... you just never know who will strike it hot and make a run. Winning the division gets you into the playoffs AND home game AND a chance.


Yeah, I get it. We really want the same thing. Of course I want them to win the division. I'm wanting that every season, but wanting more than that, like you said, Super Bowl victories. Every season, that is our ultimate goal.

I'm not saying you are missing the point. Just that, if I'm "spoiled" because I am a Packers fan, and a Rodgers fan, and I've come to realize how special this is that we have him and other great players on this team, and I want them to be in real, serious contention every year, well, I don't understand that. No, I won't be happy if we take the division and lose in the playoffs, especially if we were to get blown out. And, we just got blown out a week ago. Had our asses handed to us.

I expect our personnel staff to provide us with the players to get the job done, and our coaches to prepare players and call games that will get the job done, and I expect our players to perform at their best to get the job done. We beat ATL, now let's see if we can take it to DAL…

I agree with you, if this team comes around, if Rodgers comes back this Sunday and is able to perform at a high level, and if we do win the division, I wouldn't count us out either. Just hoping for the best.
Offline sschind  
#11 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 12:21:19 PM(UTC)
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If a super bowl win is the only acceptable outcome for a successful season a lot of fans of a lot of teams are disappointed year after year.

I see the quote "failure is not an option" used to motivate all the time and you know what, that is pure BS. There is only one thing we can require from anyone including ourselves and that is to try our best. I know that sounds trite but the fact is no one can do better than their best. If you try your best and you fail there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Failure is an option...Quitting is not.

Message modified by user Monday, December 9, 2013 12:44:56 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
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Offline DoddPower  
#12 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 3:18:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: sschind Go to Quoted Post
If a super bowl win is the only acceptable outcome for a successful season a lot of fans of a lot of teams are disappointed year after year.


Well, yeah, I usually am disappointed every year the Packers don't win the Super Bowl. It's the point of playing the game. A season can still be considered a success if quantifiable growth was shown throughout the season, and the team is playing their best football late in the season and in the playoffs. In the Packers case recently, this has not been the case at all, and yes, that is very disappointing. Two years, and possibly three in a row.

I cherish the 2010 season for everything it is/was worth. But some things need to get fixed to get back to that point. The thing that makes it most frustrating is it's completely reasonable to do so. The Packers have some glaring needs, but they're reasonable and would not take much, imo. I see a team that isn't far from potentially winning another Super Bowl, but is failing to do so due to a few weak areas of the team. Do whatever it takes to address those, and open the window back up!

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Offline nerdmann  
#13 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 3:21:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
Well, yeah, I usually am disappointed every year the Packers don't win the Super Bowl. It's the point of playing the game. A season can still be considered a success if quantifiable growth was shown throughout the season, and the team is playing their best football late in the season and in the playoffs. In the Packers case recently, this has not been the case at all, and yes, that is very disappointing. Two years, and possibly three in a row.

I cherish the 2010 season for everything it is/was worth. But some things need to get fixed to get back to that point. The thing that makes it most frustrating is it's completely reasonable to do so. The Packers have some glaring needs, but they're reasonable and would not take much, imo. I see a team that isn't far from potentially winning another Super Bowl, but is failing to do so due to a few weak areas of the team. Do whatever it takes to address those, and open the window back up!



If we went into the play offs, PLAYED WELL, and got beat, it wouldn't be that bad.

Instead, we get humiliated. It's not the same.
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Offline DoddPower  
#14 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 3:23:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
I appreciate division championships for one main reason. It gets you into the dance. So, yes, when I see a fan say a division championship means nothing, I feel they are spoiled because for me it comes off as if they feel the Packers have to be 10 - 2 on a roll with four games go to be in the playoffs and have a chance. If that's not happening, then just TANK it for a "higher draft pick". I say fuck that. Get the best QB in the game into the playoffs and lets see where the chips fall.


I certainly never said that a division championship means "nothing." Perhaps someone else did, I don't remember. I did say, however, that winning a division and getting completely embarrassed in the divisional round year after year doesn't make me feel very good about the season. The 15-1 season was fantastic. But the embarrassment at the end tainted it for me. Aaron Rodgers (and the wide receivers and Lacy) is/are good enough with a less-than-average team to get the Packers to the playoffs. But other aspects need to step up their game, especially the defense. At this point, I'm just not seeing enough solid play to do much of anything in the playoffs, which are a long shot to make in the first place. I realize I have high expectations, but that's what having the best player at the most important position in the game does to me. Aaron Rodgers certainly needs more help, though.

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Offline sschind  
#15 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 7:05:49 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
Well, yeah, I usually am disappointed every year the Packers don't win the Super Bowl. It's the point of playing the game. A season can still be considered a success if quantifiable growth was shown throughout the season, and the team is playing their best football late in the season and in the playoffs. In the Packers case recently, this has not been the case at all, and yes, that is very disappointing. Two years, and possibly three in a row.

I cherish the 2010 season for everything it is/was worth. But some things need to get fixed to get back to that point. The thing that makes it most frustrating is it's completely reasonable to do so. The Packers have some glaring needs, but they're reasonable and would not take much, imo. I see a team that isn't far from potentially winning another Super Bowl, but is failing to do so due to a few weak areas of the team. Do whatever it takes to address those, and open the window back up!



What I meant to say was that fans of every team except one is disappointed every year. Obviously not winning the SB is disappointing in that this is the goal of every team but not reaching an unrealistic goal is not always the end of the world. It seems that Super Bowl or 1-15 and the #1 draft pick are 1 & 2 as far as some fans are concerned because if you don't win the Super Bowl nothing else matters but getting the highest pick possible.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline Zero2Cool  
#16 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 8:23:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I certainly never said that a division championship means "nothing." Perhaps someone else did, I don't remember.

I did say, however, that winning a division and getting completely embarrassed in the divisional round year after year doesn't make me feel very good about the season. The 15-1 season was fantastic. But the embarrassment at the end tainted it for me. Aaron Rodgers (and the wide receivers and Lacy) is/are good enough with a less-than-average team to get the Packers to the playoffs. But other aspects need to step up their game, especially the defense. At this point, I'm just not seeing enough solid play to do much of anything in the playoffs, which are a long shot to make in the first place. I realize I have high expectations, but that's what having the best player at the most important position in the game does to me. Aaron Rodgers certainly needs more help, though.



And I certainly never said you did say division championships mean nothing. So ... ???

And no one said you should feel good about winning division championships AND losing in the divisional round. So ... ???

You don't have confidence in what you're seeing that the Packers can make a run in the playoffs. No issue with that, I get that.

I, however, would prefer them to be in the playoffs and play the games before I count them out. Any. Given. Sunday.

And winning the division championship gives them that opportunity while giving them a home playoff game. I hope for the best, expect the worst. Rather than believe the worst and hope for nothing.


What is so complicated about that point? I know I fail with my words at times, but holy crap am I doing THAT bad here???
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Offline DoddPower  
#17 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 8:33:20 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
And I certainly never said you did say division championships mean nothing. So ... ???

And no one said you should feel good about winning division championships AND losing in the divisional round. So ... ???

You don't have confidence in what you're seeing that the Packers can make a run in the playoffs. No issue with that, I get that.

I, however, would prefer them to be in the playoffs and play the games before I count them out. Any. Given. Sunday.

And winning the division championship gives them that opportunity while giving them a home playoff game. I hope for the best, expect the worst. Rather than believe the worst and hope for nothing.


What is so complicated about that point? I know I fail with my words at times, but holy crap am I doing THAT bad here???


I was never arguing against winning the division, so I don't really have much of a response to this post.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#18 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 10:01:46 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I think you are missing the point. From my perspective, the Packers may not EVER have a QB as good as Aaron Rodgers again. Packer fans are truly lucky, and most of us realize that. There is no "spoiled fan" syndrome. It has everything to do with having the best player in the NFL, and as a result, the expectation of at LEAST going deep into the playoffs is very realistic. Winning the division is great, but doing so and then getting UTTERLY embarrassed in the playoffs is a complete other. If the Packers won the division and put up a good fight in the playoffs, and still lose, than that's not so hard to swallow. But getting embarrassed two years a row in the playoffs isn't a symbol of success, in my mind. Everything is relative. If the current Packers were the Jacksonville Jaguars, sure, that could be viewed as a success. The reality is, they are NOT, and the metrics of success are different for the teams. There's simply and absolutely NO reason this team should get embarrassed in the divisional round of the playoffs, yet that has happened twice in a row, and who knows when it will end. If a fan thinks that's unacceptable and you think that makes them a "spoiled fan who doesn't appreciate the accomplishment," so be it, but I think it's the exact opposite. I think many of the fans of that perspective realize what the Packers currently have in Aaron Rodgers and a few other core players, and want to take full advantage of that talent while it's available, because who knows when it will happen again (if ever). A culture of acceptance of mediocrity usually perpetuates mediocrity.

It has nothing to do with being "spoiled." It has everything to do with wanting to maximize a once in a generation player at the most important position in the game. The Packers can relish in the victory of divisions championships if and when they have an average or worse starting QB. So long as the Packers can field an average defense or better, and a good special teams unit, there's no reason they shouldn't be seriously competing for a Super Bowl every season. Maximize the team and player window while it's available, because who knows when it will come around again. For that not to be happening the past couple of seasons and instead, embarrassments in the playoffs, is incredibly disappointing because the championship window could be passing.


Yet hardly anybody wants to blame Ted Thompson for the mediocrity of the supporting cast. sheesh!

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Offline DakotaT  
#19 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 10:04:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Yet hardly anybody wants to blame Ted Thompson for the mediocrity of the supporting cast. sheesh!



Uncle Ted gets a wide wake around here, the cupboards were bare when he arrived thanks to Sherman.
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Offline DoddPower  
#20 Posted : Monday, December 9, 2013 10:18:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
Yet hardly anybody wants to blame Ted Thompson for the mediocrity of the supporting cast. sheesh!



I've seen lots of posters here place blame on Ted Thompson, especially for the offensive line, running back, and the pass rush. But in my opinion, injuries and coaching are more to blame. I see a lot of talent on this team, but I don't think the coaches are maximizing it, for whatever reason. Especially on defense. I could easily be wrong, but I think there are coaches out there that could have led a better defense over the past few years than Dom Capers has.
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Offline play2win  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:32:17 AM(UTC)
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It really is amazing how many components go into fielding a successful team. Top QB, check. Top WR, check. Top pass rusher, check. Top RB, check. Top LG, check. Top coaching staff, ? Top personnel staff, ?

I think there are many other positions that have been calling out for top talent, and we've had the picks at many of those positions with proven talents in the college ranks, yet, where is the development? For whatever reason, it seems the coaching has been suspect in many of these other areas not listed. S, ILB, DL, OT, C, TE, STs…

Arguments could be made that our DB coaching outside of S has been pretty solid, but a player like House going the opposite direction isn't helping matters. TE coaching seems alright with what Quarless is giving us, a player I really like. Taylor seems to be coming around, but not much going on with Bostick, a guy I thought would be excelling by now, especially with Finley out. Nick Perry seems to be doing very well at OLB, and I do believe Palmer and Mulumba are just a year out in terms of physical development to play at a high level in the Pro game. I struggle a bit at ILB as Jones is clearly not the answer, but I have hopes for Lattimore if he can stay healthy. Our difficulty getting Barclay and Newhouse up to speed has been hard to watch.

No matter what, I believe these are tough calls, personnel or coaching, but I lean more towards coaching as being the big problem area, and I believe better staff would get more out of the players we have. That is a difficult call to make, but it seems with a good 4 years sample, coaching seems to be the problem area. After winning the SB in 2010, there would be a natural expectation for high level play. Losing Cullen Jenkins hurt us. We fell in DL production from that point on, and have struggled to right that. Does that point to personnel? Maybe. Figure 3 years out of that, a team would be able to retool from a personnel standpoint and be back in serious contention. We've added good players, at least in my opinion they seem to be good, talented, proven. I just don't see that they are being properly developed to take us back to that high level of play. Or, maybe the expectations are too high to have these players develop in a 1-2 year window as opposed to a 3-4 year window. It could be that part of the system is unrealistic. But, other teams do it, realizing major contributions form 1st and 2nd year players. In fairness, we've had some of that with Lacy, Bakhtiari and Daniels. Other teams add FAs to plug holes in their rosters.

Far too many players injured. This, for the 4th year in a row. How do you retain the Strength & Conditioning staff given that sample? Being one of the youngest teams in the NFL for 4 years in a row raises questions as well.

Overall, this has been a pretty damn good team for the past 4 years, with the exception of some gaping holes on our OL, at S, at ILB and DL. We've struggled to either add talent there, develop talent there, or to keep the talent we have at those positions healthy. It has been a very mixed bag of all of that. This seems to point more to the coaching staff than the personnel staff. As a result, we are now struggling to get into the playoffs, and questions loom as to what we might do should we get there. I would not say that we've really played at a high level all season, as a team, with the exception of beating up on some weaker sisters, like CLE, and DET without Calvin Johnson, a struggling WAS, etc. Going into BAL and coming out with a W was our best all year, and may be the lone exception.

We've failed in some of our biggest games though, ones that really mattered most. Games with playoff significance, and made to look pretty bad in doing so. And, what about Home Field Advantage? That no longer exists in GB, for whatever reason. Is that a personnel issue?

Maybe, with what remains of this season they, players and coaches alike, can turn the corner, and be that team we've been hoping for since the 2010 run. Sean Richardson may prove to be a big part of that. So will the much anticipated return of Rodgers and hopefully Cobb.

Since this thread is indeed about Dom Capers, I'll add he has been missing key players at some of the positions that may be required to make his D successful. Again, the Richardson addition may help. Perry's return has to help. Neal cranking it up, and Daniels cranking it up will help. Maybe Raji does something with what is left in the year to help make this D go again. Maybe Burnett comes around to be the player we've all been waiting for. Maybe somebody does something positive at ILB, like, covering a TE...

Message modified by user Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:53:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:04:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: play2win Go to Quoted Post
After winning the SB in 2010, there would be a natural expectation for high level play. Losing Cullen Jenkins hurt us. We fell in DL production from that point on, and have struggled to right that. Does that point to personnel? Maybe. Figure 3 years out of that, a team would be able to retool from a personnel standpoint and be back in serious contention. We've added good players, at least in my opinion they seem to be good, talented, proven. I just don't see that they are being properly developed to take us back to that high level of play. Or, maybe the expectations are too high to have these players develop in a 1-2 year window as opposed to a 3-4 year window. It could be that part of the system is unrealistic. But, other teams do it, realizing major contributions form 1st and 2nd year players. In fairness, we've had some of that with Lacy, Bakhtiari and Daniels. Other teams add FAs to plug holes in their rosters.


I think it is the expectations that are more to blame. Outside of high picks, it takes time for players to develop. If we look back, Tramon, Collins, Jenkins, Kampman, they all took at least 3 years to develop. Jordy and Jones took a few years to really excel.

I still think the biggest thing that hurt the team, was losing Collins, as it was an unexpected loss. But a loss that made the team completely change how they defend. Being able to have that Deep Safety cover both sidelines, allows for the coverage and zones underneath to be tighter and have smaller windows. Now we are depending on both safeties to cover deep, which makes the crossing routes under bigger.
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Offline play2win  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:19:05 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I think it is the expectations that are more to blame. Outside of high picks, it takes time for players to develop. If we look back, Tramon, Collins, Jenkins, Kampman, they all took at least 3 years to develop. Jordy and Jones took a few years to really excel.

I still think the biggest thing that hurt the team, was losing Collins, as it was an unexpected loss. But a loss that made the team completely change how they defend. Being able to have that Deep Safety cover both sidelines, allows for the coverage and zones underneath to be tighter and have smaller windows. Now we are depending on both safeties to cover deep, which makes the crossing routes under bigger.


Yeah, I tend to agree with you PackFanWithTwins on some of the expectations being out of whack with regards to player development. Part of that is McCarthy's very public insistence on a step up in play year 2.

But, if your window is that big, 3-4 years, maybe it points more to the personnel side, with not filling holes in the roster adequately. Especially when you hold firm to not playing in the FA market. Your point on Collins is huge. We have had 2 drafts since to address this, yet, nothing done specifically to upgrade the FS position. McMillian was a R4 from 2012, and never really panned out and was cut.

Dom does need his playmakers at key positions to make it all go. Cupboards have been bare at some, for years. I find the whole subject very interesting. How can one say for sure that it is Dom, or Thompson? I'm thinking it is some of all 3, Capers, McCarthy, Thompson that shares the blame for the current state of this team, and our lack of production.
Offline cheeseheads123  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:52:30 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
I think it is the expectations that are more to blame. Outside of high picks, it takes time for players to develop. If we look back, Tramon, Collins, Jenkins, Kampman, they all took at least 3 years to develop. Jordy and Jones took a few years to really excel.

I still think the biggest thing that hurt the team, was losing Collins, as it was an unexpected loss. But a loss that made the team completely change how they defend. Being able to have that Deep Safety cover both sidelines, allows for the coverage and zones underneath to be tighter and have smaller windows. Now we are depending on both safeties to cover deep, which makes the crossing routes under bigger.


Nick Collins very likely could of been the best safety in the league if he was still playing.
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Offline Zero2Cool  
#25 Posted : Friday, December 27, 2013 9:55:50 AM(UTC)
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Division Championship still means something to me. A little more knowing it could be won on the Bears field. That just adds a little sweetness to it.

But since division championship is meaningless to some of you, or so it feels implied ... I do not expect you to watch this game because the outcome is ... meaningless.
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