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Offline Zero2Cool  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, January 7, 2014 2:00:02 PM(UTC)
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Awhile back I read where Joe Whitt Jr said he took someone out of the game and put someone else in for some reason. Reading one of the comments about Dom Capers starting M.D. Jennings over Sean Richardson reminded me of that comment.

Who actually decides who starts and who sits? Does anyone have any source information to support it's the position coach or the coordinator or head coach? I presume it be a suggestion by the position coach to which the coordinator agrees/disagrees and the head coach has veto power.
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Offline luigis  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, January 7, 2014 2:07:07 PM(UTC)
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This is a good question.

Somebody also decided to start James Jones with broken ribs, that didn't work and Boykin was playing well enough to replace him if needed.



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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 7, 2014 3:45:06 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding starters who don't seem as good as the guys on the bench behind them. And the related question is who sends subs into the game? I wouldn't think McCarthy is directly doing that on gameday.

Of course, none of this would even be an issue if overall team personnel was up to the standard it should be. Gosh, whose fault could THAT possibly be?
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Offline wpr  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, January 7, 2014 3:56:52 PM(UTC)
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I don't have a source but I would say the order is like this:

HC
OC/DC
Position Coach

If makes a change ok fine but he has to answer to The Dom who if he approves has to answer to Mike.
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Offline beast  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 7, 2014 10:48:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Awhile back I read where Joe Whitt Jr said he took someone out of the game and put someone else in for some reason. Reading one of the comments about Dom Capers starting M.D. Jennings over Sean Richardson reminded me of that comment.



I don't know but I think I've read a number of comments like that of Joe Whitt that suggest it's the position coaches normally. But they probably can be over ruled by the highers... but it's probably position coaches.


That's why I find it interesting so many people blame Capers for starting Perry on the left side when he's flashed more potential on the right, yet they give Coach Greene so much credit... it's probably coach Greene who would make that call. Not Capers.


As far as the Safety position, it seems like they have been trying to get Burnett back to SS more... problem is you would need a FS for that... and Jennings is the only FS they have... and he's error prone...

I think the Packers are alright at SS... they need a FS. And a lot of talk about Hyde playing S... I think he'd be another good SS option... but the Packers need a good FS.
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Offline DoddPower  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:28:44 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I don't know but I think I've read a number of comments like that of Joe Whitt that suggest it's the position coaches normally. But they probably can be over ruled by the highers... but it's probably position coaches.


That's why I find it interesting so many people blame Capers for starting Perry on the left side when he's flashed more potential on the right, yet they give Coach Greene so much credit... it's probably coach Greene who would make that call. Not Capers.


As far as the Safety position, it seems like they have been trying to get Burnett back to SS more... problem is you would need a FS for that... and Jennings is the only FS they have... and he's error prone...

I think the Packers are alright at SS... they need a FS. And a lot of talk about Hyde playing S... I think he'd be another good SS option... but the Packers need a good FS.


Eh, the Buck always stop with the Boss. If Capers thinks his subordinates are making the wrong decision, he has to over-rule them. That's his job. He's the guy that knows more about his scheme as a whole. Even if his position coaches were making the mistakes, than Capers is still to blame for not correcting them. If I was making mistakes at my job and my boss didn't correct them, I would still get in trouble, but so would my boss because he's ultimately responsible for everything we produce. Ultimately, it would end up in lost contracts and some of us without jobs.

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Offline Mucky Tundra  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:42:18 AM(UTC)
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If I were to venture a guess, during the week I'd say Capers/Clements/McCarthy game planing with input from the position coaches while during the game the position coaches.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 9:56:15 AM(UTC)
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While I have no official knowledge of how the Packers do things, it is pretty logical to assume that it is a combination of Coordinator and Positions coaches. On defense they setup who is the starter at each position for each package. And it is normal to look at backups that they want to get playing time. For example, Starks coming in for a series or two when there is nothing wrong with Lacy. Those are normally planned with the gameplan also.

The only question is, who makes the call in game for performance issues and I believe that would normally be the Position coach, they are the once who are watching their guys. It is hard for Capers to see what all 11 are doing all the time. But I would suspect that if a position coach makes a call to change somebody out, Capers is told why and can say to change back if he wants.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:03:13 AM(UTC)
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I say again, would we even care about this if we didn't have significant personnel problems?
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Offline blueleopard  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:33:18 AM(UTC)
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As much as I've grown to like Boykin, the Packers made the right decision putting Jones on the field. Not only is he the starter, you want to have your leaders, your seasoned players in there.
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 11:37:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: blueleopard Go to Quoted Post
As much as I've grown to like Boykin, the Packers made the right decision putting Jones on the field. Not only is he the starter, you want to have your leaders, your seasoned players in there.


Jones must have been keeping the injury to himself. The way the Packers handle injuries I can't see them not having him listed if they knew. And the league frowns on not listing injured players.
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Offline beast  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:17:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
Eh, the Buck always stop with the Boss. If Capers thinks his subordinates are making the wrong decision, he has to over-rule them. That's his job. He's the guy that knows more about his scheme as a whole. Even if his position coaches were making the mistakes, than Capers is still to blame for not correcting them. If I was making mistakes at my job and my boss didn't correct them, I would still get in trouble, but so would my boss because he's ultimately responsible for everything we produce. Ultimately, it would end up in lost contracts and some of us without jobs.



Well if we're going to give the boss all the blame then why isn't he also getting all the credit for the good things?

What I see is people blaming one scape goat and saying everything else is alright when that's clearly bull...


All i hear is it's Capers fault over and over...

Capers get blamed for the horrible Safety play, I still haven't heard people question the Safetey coach and maybe weather he's at fault at all for not being able to coach guys up better.

Capers get blamed for the OLB not being better yet people are hoping Coach Greene become the next defensive coordinator, when Greene has basically said he loves Dom system and it sounds like it's what he would want to run as well... and Greene has only had one above average player (Matthews) and has failed to coach up other draft pick to where they're decent players... yet Capers gets all the blame.


And if the Boss gets all the blame then it should be MM, because he's the boss... and he's the one that forced Capers to switch schemes, to a more traditional 3-4 scheme.

Heck Mike McCarthy unit played worse than Capers units in the playoffs and Mike McCarthy hired Capers... that should be enough to get Mike McCarthy fired based on some of the logic that been going around. Yet it all goes onto Capers... just like it has all gone on Hawk, Bush and Crosby other years, when time has proven it wasn't their fault. Fans need a scape goat... doesn't mean that scape goat is always truely as fault.
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Offline beast  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:18:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins Go to Quoted Post
Jones must have been keeping the injury to himself. The way the Packers handle injuries I can't see them not having him listed if they knew. And the league frowns on not listing injured players.


Yeah I was thinking the Packers could be seeing a fine for not listing this on the injury report (at least if the NFL can prove they knew about it).
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Offline steveishere  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 12:27:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
Well if we're going to give the boss all the blame then why isn't he also getting all the credit for the good things?

What I see is people blaming one scape goat and saying everything else is alright when that's clearly bull...


All i hear is it's Capers fault over and over...

Capers get blamed for the horrible Safety play, I still haven't heard people question the Safetey coach and maybe weather he's at fault at all for not being able to coach guys up better.

Capers get blamed for the OLB not being better yet people are hoping Coach Greene become the next defensive coordinator, when Greene has basically said he loves Dom system and it sounds like it's what he would want to run as well... and Greene has only had one above average player (Matthews) and has failed to coach up other draft pick to where they're decent players... yet Capers gets all the blame.


And if the Boss gets all the blame then it should be MM, because he's the boss... and he's the one that forced Capers to switch schemes, to a more traditional 3-4 scheme.

Heck Mike McCarthy unit played worse than Capers units in the playoffs and Mike McCarthy hired Capers... that should be enough to get Mike McCarthy fired based on some of the logic that been going around. Yet it all goes onto Capers... just like it has all gone on Hawk, Bush and Crosby other years, when time has proven it wasn't their fault. Fans need a scape goat... doesn't mean that scape goat is always truely as fault.


Right then, Capers has absolutely NO responsibility and his defense has been marvelous for the last 3 years (and if it hasn't been well that was obviously someone elses fault)
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Offline beast  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 1:02:03 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
Right then, Capers has absolutely NO responsibility and his defense has been marvelous for the last 3 years (and if it hasn't been well that was obviously someone elses fault)


Exactly!!! Finally someone with some common sense up in here....

Sarcasm


On a more serious note... Capers deserves some blame... but not all the blame like he has been getting... I think it should be fire the whole defense staff ... not fire Capers and promote Kevin Greene (who would probably do the same things) ...


That or fire all the coaches and get some better coaches up in here... it's not like Mike McCarthy has done a great coach with those first couple drives against the 49ers that were 3 and outs... take the ball out of the hands of your best play maker 4 plays to start a game? What was Mike McCarthy thinking?


Or why not Ted Thompson as well? It's not like this roster has been overly good... I think somebody here has posted that the OTs have been bottom of the NFL this year.... and have you seen the lack of Safety play? And last helpful 1st round pick this season was from 2009...


But if we fire Capers all these other problems will somehow magically fit themselves...
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Offline DoddPower  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 1:10:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
Well if we're going to give the boss all the blame then why isn't he also getting all the credit for the good things?

What I see is people blaming one scape goat and saying everything else is alright when that's clearly bull...


All i hear is it's Capers fault over and over...

Capers get blamed for the horrible Safety play, I still haven't heard people question the Safetey coach and maybe weather he's at fault at all for not being able to coach guys up better.

Capers get blamed for the OLB not being better yet people are hoping Coach Greene become the next defensive coordinator, when Greene has basically said he loves Dom system and it sounds like it's what he would want to run as well... and Greene has only had one above average player (Matthews) and has failed to coach up other draft pick to where they're decent players... yet Capers gets all the blame.


And if the Boss gets all the blame then it should be MM, because he's the boss... and he's the one that forced Capers to switch schemes, to a more traditional 3-4 scheme.

Heck Mike McCarthy unit played worse than Capers units in the playoffs and Mike McCarthy hired Capers... that should be enough to get Mike McCarthy fired based on some of the logic that been going around. Yet it all goes onto Capers... just like it has all gone on Hawk, Bush and Crosby other years, when time has proven it wasn't their fault. Fans need a scape goat... doesn't mean that scape goat is always truely as fault.


As I said, the buck stops with him. He gets credit for the good, and the bad. I've already credited him with a decent job this year in the playoffs. However, imo, there has been more good than bad. It's not based off one game either. McCarthy's unit consistently performs better than the Packers defense. I'm not sure why some struggle to understand the bigger picture, and that a few games here and there do not and should not sway ones perspective of a coach or a player one way or the other. It's a cumulative evaluation over the long term.

But your right, McCarthy should get more blame for keeping around under performing players or coaches. I'm totally OK with that. I think sometimes Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy are far too loyal . . . to a fault. I think there should be more accountability for the Packers failures the past few years.
Offline beast  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, January 8, 2014 2:00:19 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
However, imo, there has been more good than bad.

Can I quote you on that? Big Grin
Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
But your right, McCarthy should get more blame for keeping around under performing players or coaches.

That's all I'm asking... just want people to stop blaming one person... it's not one person. It's not one fix... othrs should be getting some blame as well, not just one person.

I'm fine with the idea of firing the whole defeive staff (if there is a better group of coaches) but I don't think it's one guy... and I don't think it's just the coaches either. Players have their own share of blame as well...
Originally Posted by: DoddPower Go to Quoted Post
I'm not sure why some struggle to understand the bigger picture, and that a few games here and there do not and should not sway ones perspective of a coach or a player one way or the other. It's a cumulative evaluation over the long term.


I agree... and I also don't know why the people, media or NFL use yardage to rank teams... points are what matter. Looking over the Packers years since the 1990s only two defensive coordinator have gotten the team into top 10 more than one year... Dom Capers and Fritz Shurmur

Packers points allowed

2013: 24th
2013 (with Rodgers): 15th
2013 (without Rodgers): 32nd

2012: 9th*
( * = if they called the fail mary play correctly )

Bold and Red = Top 10 in least amount of points given up that season

Capers
2013: 24th (15th when Rodgers played)
2012: 9th*
2011: 19th
2010: 2nd
2009: 7th


Bob Sanders
2008: 22nd
2007: 6th
2006: 25th

Jim Bates
2005: 19th

Bob Slowik
2004: 23rd

Ed Donatell
2003: 11th
2002: 12th
2001: 5th
2000: 14th

Emmitt Thomas
1999: 20th

Fritz Shurmur
1998: 11th
1997: 5th
1996: 1st
1995: 4th
1994: 5th


Ray Rhodes
1993: 9th
1992: 15th

Hank Bullough
1991: 18th
1990: 18th
1989: 18th
1988: 11th
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