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Offline MintBaconDrivel  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:14:01 PM(UTC)
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The comment about Dom Capers "image" is interesting. Why not add players to his "image" in 2009, or 2010, or 2011, or 2012 or 2013? Why wait until year six?
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Offline PackFanWithTwins  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:21:47 PM(UTC)
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Overall average I would expect them to be smaller. Not the Jolly,Pickett,Raji front. But I'm not certain they are going to let Raji go, rather move him back to NT while having smaller DEs. I think BJ could afford to drop a few tons also.
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Offline nerdmann  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:34:12 PM(UTC)
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"Smaller and quicker?" That didn't work out on our Oline, and it didn't work out on our Dline under Sherman. Remember that year Grady Jackson fell out of the sky and saved our season?

I don't like the sound of this.

That was also Rumsfeld's idea for Iraq. LOL
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Zero2Cool on 2/12/2014(UTC), musccy on 2/13/2014(UTC)
Offline steveishere  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:54:25 PM(UTC)
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Dont care what size they are they just need good football players
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DoddPower on 2/13/2014(UTC)
Offline DakotaT  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:58:36 PM(UTC)
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I'm going to start being mean to TexasPackerBacker if we resign Raji; Buckeye too! I swear to God, I'll blow a gasket if that happens.
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Offline beast  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 9:19:30 PM(UTC)
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IF this is true... I think it means we're going to see the more aggressive and real Dom Capers system come back... the one we saw from 2009 to 2011. They got burned in 2011, so the Packers (because of their lack of pass rush / DB play in one on one) moved to a more conservative style (less risk) in 2012.

This could be the perfect time for it, with the run defenders being FAs, and the pass rushing being fairly young and possible to break out and have huge years.
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Offline mi_keys  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:09:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MintBaconDrivel Go to Quoted Post

The comment about Dom Capers "image" is interesting. Why not add players to his "image" in 2009, or 2010, or 2011, or 2012 or 2013? Why wait until year six?


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Offline Mucky Tundra  
#8 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:36:53 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mi_keys Go to Quoted Post
HE SPEAKS!


HEAR, AND BE ENLIGHTENED!

I've been sorta wondering who would be a better fit between Nix and Hageman if both were available at #21 in the draft. I found myself thinking that if it was 2006 or 2007, I'd go with Nix. But then I also thought that an athletic guy like Hageman at NT and turning him loose to make plays is more what we need in 2014. Texaspackerbacker has mentioned several times that the Cowboys ran a 3-4 with Jay Ratliff doing something similar. It might be what they're trying to go for.
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Offline steveishere  
#9 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:07:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: MintBaconDrivel Go to Quoted Post

The comment about Dom Capers "image" is interesting. Why not add players to his "image" in 2009, or 2010, or 2011, or 2012 or 2013? Why wait until year six?


It makes no sense at all considering Dom has talked about how much he likes the big bodies along the d-line and has used the bigger guys so often even though our most successful guys have been the smaller faster ones for the most part. It seems like Dom has no clue what he wants at that position.
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Offline nerdmann  
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:29:09 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
It makes no sense at all considering Dom has talked about how much he likes the big bodies along the d-line and has used the bigger guys so often even though our most successful guys have been the smaller faster ones for the most part. It seems like Dom has no clue what he wants at that position.


Could also be pre-draft disinfo.
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Offline DoddPower  
#11 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 1:27:04 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nerdmann Go to Quoted Post
Could also be pre-draft disinfo.


Yeah, there's no real reason to believe any of this.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#12 Posted : Thursday, February 13, 2014 4:45:05 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DakotaT Go to Quoted Post
I'm going to start being mean to TexasPackerBacker if we resign Raji; Buckeye too! I swear to God, I'll blow a gasket if that happens.


Did you mistype that - meaning to say "stop" instead of "start"? It's kinda like a mosquito bite on my ass whenever you post hahahaha.

I think you and I are the top two detractors in here regarding Raji and Pickett - which is saying a lot, since they are so widely hated.

Finally one of the talking heads is putting it into print what I have been saying for a long time now - Daniels, Worthy, and D. Jones, with Boyd and Jolly also in the rotation, would amount to a very decent D Line. I question whether that would represent a change in Capers type personnel, as I recall when he was with other teams, he generally had athletic LBs with big clods in the line acting almost like O Linemen for the LBs. Whatever about that - I like it a lot better having D Linemen who actually can function on their own.

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Offline beast  
#13 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 9:29:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
It makes no sense at all considering Dom has talked about how much he likes the big bodies along the d-line and has used the bigger guys so often even though our most successful guys have been the smaller faster ones for the most part. It seems like Dom has no clue what he wants at that position.


I think a lot of people are missing the context that the DL have been used differently. The big bodies have been more often been askd to control the OL, not let there be running gaps on the inside and pass rush less. While the smaller guys have been asked to pass rush more, try to control the OL less and running game less. So what they were being asked to do was some what different and so their over all goals aren't the same. Those big guys could of been very successful and most wouldn't noticed as they were being asked to do the dirty works which rarely gets notice.

Example, everyone seems to remember Clay Matthews fumble in the Super Bowl...but how did he get that shot at the RB like that? Pickett pushed the OL backwards and he took away the inside run forcing him to outside and they basically sandwiched the RB. But that was one of the more clear cases of it... it happens a lot more in less clear cases where those big guys are successful in what they were asked to do (the dirty work) and fans are complaining that they aren't successful.


But a lot of those big bodies are in FA... so this might be the right time to get away from them some and ask the DL to do more pass rushing and less of the dirty work, and LBers more of the dirty work and less of the rushing.
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Offline beast  
#14 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 9:34:09 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
I like it a lot better having D Linemen who actually can function on their own.


You seems to like it when all the non-coverage guys have the same role... get to the ball ASAP and don't worry about anything else. You would probably really like Cover 2 and Tampa 2 style then.


I agree with you that it would probably be nice having DL being allowed to be more aggressive... it's easier to read how well the players are doing. Then clogging/protecting and stuff and more exciting... though they'll have to get better against the run.

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Offline steveishere  
#15 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 10:00:56 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I think a lot of people are missing the context that the DL have been used differently. The big bodies have been more often been askd to control the OL, not let there be running gaps on the inside and pass rush less. While the smaller guys have been asked to pass rush more, try to control the OL less and running game less. So what they were being asked to do was some what different and so their over all goals aren't the same. Those big guys could of been very successful and most wouldn't noticed as they were being asked to do the dirty works which rarely gets notice.

Example, everyone seems to remember Clay Matthews fumble in the Super Bowl...but how did he get that shot at the RB like that? Pickett pushed the OL backwards and he took away the inside run forcing him to outside and they basically sandwiched the RB. But that was one of the more clear cases of it... it happens a lot more in less clear cases where those big guys are successful in what they were asked to do (the dirty work) and fans are complaining that they aren't successful.


But a lot of those big bodies are in FA... so this might be the right time to get away from them some and ask the DL to do more pass rushing and less of the dirty work, and LBers more of the dirty work and less of the rushing.


The problem with our big guys lately though is they don't get that penetration and cause any disruption. They engage the o-lineman and then stay in 1 place while there are still running gaps to either side of them. They don't disengage and disrupt they play all they do is simply take on the 1 blocker in front of them. I've always liked the phrase "disruption is production". There isn't a stat for simply screwing up the play but it's a great thing to do. I don't necessarily need to see more tackles/sacks from the d-line but I would certainly like to see less standing there hand fighting at or beyond the LOS.

I don't really believe that their job has just been to stand there at the LOS and play patty cake without trying to cause any other disruption. If that's the case then we may as well ditch the base scheme all together.
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Offline Wade  
#16 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 2:25:12 PM(UTC)
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Until last year, Pickett consistently occupied two blockers and performed the messing-things-up role as well as anyone. Last year, alas, he showed his age. I'd like to think he was slowed by some injuries, but the reality likely is that he's on the downside and is now just a guy. But until 2013 he was a stud, IMO.

Raji, on the other hand....don't get me going. To me he had 2 thirds of seasons that were good. The last third of 2010 and the first third of 2013. The rest of his tenure he's been average or less.

Great personality, but just not as good as one expects from a first rounder. Or, for most of his tenure in GB, a fifth rounder.
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Offline nerdmann  
#17 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 4:13:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Until last year, Pickett consistently occupied two blockers and performed the messing-things-up role as well as anyone. Last year, alas, he showed his age. I'd like to think he was slowed by some injuries, but the reality likely is that he's on the downside and is now just a guy. But until 2013 he was a stud, IMO.

Raji, on the other hand....don't get me going. To me he had 2 thirds of seasons that were good. The last third of 2010 and the first third of 2013. The rest of his tenure he's been average or less.

Great personality, but just not as good as one expects from a first rounder. Or, for most of his tenure in GB, a fifth rounder.


Problem is, we as fans have no idea how healthy he was or wasn't.
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#18 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:05:21 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
You seems to like it when all the non-coverage guys have the same role... get to the ball ASAP and don't worry about anything else. You would probably really like Cover 2 and Tampa 2 style then.


I agree with you that it would probably be nice having DL being allowed to be more aggressive... it's easier to read how well the players are doing. Then clogging/protecting and stuff and more exciting... though they'll have to get better against the run.



As they say in military intelligence, it ain't so much about intent; It's about capability. Having the big fatties doing that clogging/protecting stuff basically put all the pressure on the LBs. Matthews even when he wasn't hurt got double teamed because the damn fatties weren't capable of doing the protecting of his lanes to pass rush, and whoever played opposite of Matthews generally didn't even need to be double teamed. Similarly, on runs, the fat fools in the D-Line couldn't even eat up blockers to allow our ILBs to stop people for short or no gains. Unless you have Donterrio Poe or somebody like that, and LBs like the Niners, you are better off with a front seven that is ALL moderately capable of making plays.

I don't see what that has to do with Cover Two v Man Coverage, as the back 4 or 5 has less pressure on them either way if the front seven has decent capability.

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Offline beast  
#19 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:39:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: steveishere Go to Quoted Post
The problem with our big guys lately though is they don't get that penetration and cause any disruption. They engage the o-lineman and then stay in 1 place while there are still running gaps to either side of them. They don't disengage and disrupt they play all they do is simply take on the 1 blocker in front of them. I've always liked the phrase "disruption is production". There isn't a stat for simply screwing up the play but it's a great thing to do. I don't necessarily need to see more tackles/sacks from the d-line but I would certainly like to see less standing there hand fighting at or beyond the LOS.

I don't really believe that their job has just been to stand there at the LOS and play patty cake without trying to cause any other disruption. If that's the case then we may as well ditch the base scheme all together.


You can disrupt with out penetrating, like Pickett, he was great at disrupting by going side to side, east and west, while he struggled to penetrate.

Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
Until last year, Pickett consistently occupied two blockers and performed the messing-things-up role as well as anyone. Last year, alas, he showed his age. I'd like to think he was slowed by some injuries, but the reality likely is that he's on the downside and is now just a guy. But until 2013 he was a stud, IMO.


I COMPETELY AGREE!!! ... though Pickett was on the injury report some and so it could of been injuries, but we can't tell for sure from the outside.


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Offline beast  
#20 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 8:48:26 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
As they say in military intelligence, it ain't so much about intent; It's about capability. Having the big fatties doing that clogging/protecting stuff basically put all the pressure on the LBs. Matthews even when he wasn't hurt got double teamed because the damn fatties weren't capable of doing the protecting of his lanes to pass rush, and whoever played opposite of Matthews generally didn't even need to be double teamed. Similarly, on runs, the fat fools in the D-Line couldn't even eat up blockers to allow our ILBs to stop people for short or no gains. Unless you have Donterrio Poe or somebody like that, and LBs like the Niners, you are better off with a front seven that is ALL moderately capable of making plays.

I don't see what that has to do with Cover Two v Man Coverage, as the back 4 or 5 has less pressure on them either way if the front seven has decent capability.



You just blindly throwing blame around now... of course the best passer is going to get doubled team. It's call chip blocking when a TE, FB or RB chip in to help... that has NOTHING to do with the big fatties job. They're not suppose to cover the light guys until the ball is in their hand (which it wasn't when they were chip blocking Matthews). Teams scheme their offense to slow Matthews down... there really is nothing they can do about it other than get a pass rusher that's better than him to take attention off of him.


People just don't get understand or care about the dirty work inside linemen are asked to do... Sad
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Offline texaspackerbacker  
#21 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 10:16:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
You just blindly throwing blame around now... of course the best passer is going to get doubled team. It's call chip blocking when a TE, FB or RB chip in to help... that has NOTHING to do with the big fatties job. They're not suppose to cover the light guys until the ball is in their hand (which it wasn't when they were chip blocking Matthews). Teams scheme their offense to slow Matthews down... there really is nothing they can do about it other than get a pass rusher that's better than him to take attention off of him.


People just don't get understand or care about the dirty work inside linemen are asked to do... Sad


You make my point about Matthews. Teams scheme to stop him, and what else is there? Not a helluva lot.

Daniels offered a glimmer of hope, but he didn't play enough. With the fat pieces of crap gone, and Worthy and Datone Jones getting a lot more snaps too, and Boyd, let 'em try to scheme against Matthews! And if Perry can stay healthy and improve, even better. I guarantee the pass coverage will seem a whole lot better if we can get that pressure from the line.
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Offline beast  
#22 Posted : Friday, February 14, 2014 10:41:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker Go to Quoted Post
You make my point about Matthews. Teams scheme to stop him, and what else is there? Not a helluva lot.

Daniels offered a glimmer of hope, but he didn't play enough. With the fat pieces of crap gone, and Worthy and Datone Jones getting a lot more snaps too, and Boyd, let 'em try to scheme against Matthews! And if Perry can stay healthy and improve, even better. I guarantee the pass coverage will seem a whole lot better if we can get that pressure from the line.


I didn't make your point... your point was the DL was to blame for Matthews double teams and you were dead wrong about that.

I made my point of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to DL that aren't being asked to penetrate right off the bat... they used the big DL to free up the LBers more often... though I don't know why I'm trying to explain, I doubting you care. Just want to complain about something and so you're picking on the guys that are asked to be the least flashy.. and you'll never get that it seems.


But some how that "not helluva lot" Hawk, Neal, Perry, Daniels all set career records in number of sacks even though they saw more double teams as Matthews sat on the bench more often this season.


There is dirty work in football that ask guys not to be flashy... fans will always complain about that player not being good enough of a play maker but they're doing a great job of being a role player for the team because the teams needs someone to do the dirty work and be the glue of the team. And honestly I've very sad that Pickett will never get the credit he deserves of being the double gap glue. He's not a play maker but man has he set others up to make a ton of plays doing a lot of the dirty work alone the DL.

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Offline steveishere  
#23 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 6:25:11 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
You can disrupt with out penetrating, like Pickett, he was great at disrupting by going side to side, east and west, while he struggled to penetrate.



I COMPETELY AGREE!!! ... though Pickett was on the injury report some and so it could of been injuries, but we can't tell for sure from the outside.




Maybe back in the day, he sucked at it last year and got blown up too much just like Raji. Jolly was the only big guy who could do it last year but he didn't seem to have the stamina to keep up all game. Like I said unless their job was to stand there and play patty cake at the line of scrimmage then they really weren't doing their jobs.
Offline play2win  
#24 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 7:07:20 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: beast Go to Quoted Post
I didn't make your point... your point was the DL was to blame for Matthews double teams and you were dead wrong about that.

I made my point of you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to DL that aren't being asked to penetrate right off the bat... they used the big DL to free up the LBers more often... though I don't know why I'm trying to explain, I doubting you care. Just want to complain about something and so you're picking on the guys that are asked to be the least flashy.. and you'll never get that it seems.


But some how that "not helluva lot" Hawk, Neal, Perry, Daniels all set career records in number of sacks even though they saw more double teams as Matthews sat on the bench more often this season.


There is dirty work in football that ask guys not to be flashy... fans will always complain about that player not being good enough of a play maker but they're doing a great job of being a role player for the team because the teams needs someone to do the dirty work and be the glue of the team. And honestly I've very sad that Pickett will never get the credit he deserves of being the double gap glue. He's not a play maker but man has he set others up to make a ton of plays doing a lot of the dirty work alone the DL.



beast, Pickett has been this solid player you speak of with little reward for years. Good post. Dom does have these space eaters like Pickett and Raji in there for this purpose. No question. Our LBs and Safeties simply were not getting home to finish plays as the scheme was designed. Add to that, Pickett was playing hurt for nearly all of the 2013 season. He has been a warrior for us. He is one player I would readily welcome back for 2014 if they choose to sign him.

For instance, how many times did we see Hawk blow in to make a stop with no help coming in behind him? I saw that quite a lot last season. This is supposed to be an attacking defense, but it has too many pieces missing.

However, the only thing Pickett has working against him now is his age. He might be getting a bit long in the tooth to re-sign. Last season was probably his worst since 2006. That is a long time of providing dependable play, but if he wears out, which it was looking like last year, it may be best to add some youth there for 2014. Ted has a big decision to make with him.

Raji has had an inordinate number of snaps early in his career. Things evened out over the past two seasons there, and I thought we would see more effective play from him, but he has looked disappointing. That was readily apparent last season. Space eater or no space eater. He whiffed badly too often or looked to be going through the motions. That was a disappointment, and now I really question re-signing him. We may be better off adding two more to replace both of these guys, especially with other giant contracts coming up next season.

Both Pickett and Raji, together, will command a lot of dough to keep on the Packers roster, and I am now questioning whether that would be a good idea. I'm not seeing a real value return that can be counted on. Maybe with Pick in a cap friendly deal.

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Offline Wade  
#25 Posted : Saturday, February 15, 2014 8:27:29 AM(UTC)
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Looking on his entire past with the Packers, I'm with beast and play2win on PIckett. I have no problem with giving him the benefit of doubt that "last year's poor play was injury-related and bringing him back if the numbers aren't bad. I have no problem with having "space occupying fatties" on the roster.

I see no reason to bring Raji back, though. Top DL are hard to come by, but journeymen type of his inconsistency -- because that, really, is all he has demonstrated -- can be found in late rounds or on the "street". Has he truly distanced himself from the other second/third string DLs whose names no one knows? I don't think so. He's a guy, that's all.
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