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Offline sschind  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 8:47:39 AM(UTC)
sschind

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NFL.com writer Elliot Harrison has come up with his all time Packer team.

his premise for the list was this Essentially, though, this is an all-time starting lineup, complete with a fullback and a guy who could play nose tackle if needed. It is not the 25 greatest Packers, so there's just one QB to choose between Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers and ...

here is a link to the article if you want to read his rationale.

http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/...e-team-green-bay-packers

but here is his list

QB Bart Starr
RB Jim Taylor
FB Clarke Hinkle
WR Don Hutson & James Lofton
TE Paul Coffman
OT Forrest Gregg & Call Hubbard
OG Jerry Kramer & Mike Michalske
C Jim Ringo
DE Reggie White and Willie Davis
DT Gilbert Brown & Henry Jordan
OLB Dave Robinson & Clay Matthews
MLB Ray Nitschke
CB Herb Adderly & Charles Woodson
S Leroy Butler & Willie Wood
K Ryan Longwell
P Craig Hentrich
KR Travis Williams

I didn't start following the Packers until about 1975 and I am barely old enough to remember much before that anyway so I can't speak to any personal knowledge about the old timers but for the most part I would not argue with any of these choices.

Some of my initial observations are

Starr over Favre or Rodgers I won't argue but Katie bar the door this will ruffle more than a few feathers. While I won't disagree with his choice I would have a hard time disagreeing with Favre or Rodgers either. I do believe that in 5 years it will be Rodgers though (unless you continue to count championships as your benchmark)

My personal favorite is Ahman Green but I never saw Taylor play and I will go along with those who say he was something really special. I hope Eddie Lacy takes this spot in another 5 or 6 years

Putting in a true FB and adding Hinkle will bother some people because the Golden Boy (Paul Hornung) got left off.

I agree with the WR choices but Sterling Sharpe is going to get a lot of love, as well he should.

Nothing against Matthews but in his relatively short and often injured career I find it hard to believe there wasn't another better OLB to choose from. He is a force when healthy however so maybe he does belong.

Sort of the same thing for Gilbert. He was certainly popular and a very good player but I can't help but think a lot of his popularity is showmanship. I won't say he doesn't belong but I'm surprised there is no one better.

Most of the arguments will come from the youngsters who fail to realize that they played football in Green bay prior to 1990. I would guess that most of their list would look something like this

QB Brett Favre or Aaron Rodgers (kind of comes down to Ted Thompson fans vs Ted Thompson haters)
RB Ahman Green
FB William Henderson
WR Sterling Sharpe & Donald Driver
TE Jermichael Finley or the Toolbox (Ed West)
OT Chad Clifton & Mark Tausher
OG Josh Sitton and Ross Verba (or was he a tackle)
C Bag-O-Donuts (Frank Winters)
DE Reggie White & KGB or Aaron Kampmen
DT Gilbert Brown & Santana Dotson
OLB Clay Matthews & Nick Barnett (or was he ILB)
MLB AJ Hawk
CB Leroy Butler and Charles Woodson
S Nick Collins & Darren Sharper
K Ryan Longwell
P Craig Hentrich
KR Desmond Howard

Not a bad team at all but certainly not best of all time.

The biggest argument you get from the youngsters is that players of yesteryear could not play in today's game. They cite player size and speed along with advances in training, nutrition, technology etc etc as reasons why not. This may be somewhat true along the OL and DL and maybe LB spots where physical size is more important and there is no denying that players today are simply larger (maybe not more talented) My argument to these youngsters though is that if you took a guy like Ray Nitschke and put him in the current game where he had access to all the same training, nutrition, technology etc etc as players today do who is to say he would not have been even that much better. In reverse, take someone like Clay Matthews and give him access to the same information as was available in the 60s and how would he perform today, or even back then.

IMO if you are going to compare players of different eras you have to compare them on equal footings. You can't just say take this guy from this era and put him in that era and this is what would happen. You have to give that guy the benefit (or detriment) of the tools available of the era. You have to look at what a guy like this COULD have done had he been born 40 years later, or earlier.
I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
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wpr on 3/5/2014(UTC)
Offline musccy  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 9:14:14 AM(UTC)
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agreed on most of your points. I'm on the fence on Clay but I feel Sterling belongs and they have the same situation - very dominant, albeit for short periods of time.

Gilbert, too, I'm not so fond of. Not sure who I'd replace him with, but I don't think he was ever even a Pro Bowler off the top of my head. He did the gravedigger dance which was cool and all, but like you said, he seems to get the showmanship bias to make the list.
.
Offline wpr  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:23:53 AM(UTC)
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love this post.
You can win games with both of those teams.

I will have to put a little thought into it but off the top of my head I can see why Lofton as the Hofer gets the nod over Sharpe. That said without injuries Sterling would have had an excellent chance to make The Hall too. I give Sharpe the slot in a close vote where we have to count the hanging chads.

Digger is a fine choice. He clogged the middle and stopped the run. He may not have had sexy stats but he was a beast in his prime. Sack antics aside.

Even though he didn't play in GB for most of his career I would go for Jan Stenerud over Longwell. It is a nice luxury to have two qualified kickers.


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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:24:40 AM(UTC)
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The mistake on the original list is that Jim Taylor was a FB.

60's football consisted of a QB, a RB and a FB,

Jim Brown was a FB, if not for taylor playing the same time as Brown, or if Brown had never played, people would probably be talking about Taylor as they do Brown.

Jim Taylor was that good.

Paul Horning was the RB, and IMHO, should be on the list as best RB.

Hard to believe that Hornung could play qb also, was the PK, and when not running the ball, was a damn good blocker for Taylor.

Lists like these, especially for a team like Green Bay, should be split into 3 era's, pre 1950, 1950 - 1980, post 1980.

The evolution of the game makes it hard to compare players , especially if you haven't personally saw them play.

I'm just happy there have been so many great players who have played at lambeau so there can be disagreements about this lis.


Enjoy the ride – It kicks and just keeps on kickin’. "Stats are for Losers"
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texaspackerbacker on 3/5/2014(UTC)
Offline wpr  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:30:56 AM(UTC)
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on your 90's on list,
Favre gets the call today. In 5 years I may change my vote.

TE goes to West. JerMike could have taken the spot IF he lived up to all his hype and expectations.

Verba played more OT than OG. But he played both and it is your list so I won't complain. Personally I would vote for Mrs Colledge. Or not.

I liked KGB as a blitz specialist. He didn't perform as well when he was an every down player.

Barnett for the most part was ILB.


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Offline wpr  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:10:31 AM(UTC)
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All Time:

QB Bart Starr
RB Jim Taylor
FB Clarke Hinkle
WR Don Hutson & Sterling Shapre
TE Paul Coffman
OT Forrest Gregg & Cal Hubbard
OG Jerry Kramer & Mike Michalske
C Jim Ringo
DE Reggie White and Willie Davis
DT Gilbert Brown & Henry Jordan
OLB Dave Robinson & Clay Matthews
MLB Ray Nitschke
CB Herb Adderly & Charles Woodson
S Leroy Butler & Willie Wood
K Jan Stenerud
P Craig Hentrich


1990's to date:

QB Brett Favre
RB Ahman Green
FB William Henderson
WR Sterling Sharpe & Donald Driver
TE Mark Chmura
OT Chad Clifton & Mark Tausher
OG Josh Sitton and Marco Rivera
C Frank Winters
DE Reggie White & Aaron Kampmen
DT Gilbert Brown & Santana Dotson
OLB Clay Matthews & Johnny Holland (ILB but I am cheating)
MLB AJ Hawk
CB Leroy Butler and Charles Woodson
S Nick Collins & Darren Sharper
K Ryan Longwell
P Craig Hentrich

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Offline Zero2Cool  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:45:34 AM(UTC)
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Donald Driver over Javon Walker???? That decision was not based on talent or potential reached. Walker was dominant. Driver was serviceable.

You line up Sterling Sharpe and Walker and wow. You got your first down guy who can break tackles and you have a deep threat who can adjust to the ball with amazing skill. Too bad he got hurt and turned into a bum.
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Offline wpr  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:00:44 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool Go to Quoted Post
Donald Driver over Javon Walker???? That decision was not based on talent or potential reached. Walker was dominant. Driver was serviceable.

You line up Sterling Sharpe and Walker and wow. You got your first down guy who can break tackles and you have a deep threat who can adjust to the ball with amazing skill. Too bad he got hurt and turned into a bum.


Your list can include Walker if you wish. Donald didn't get the most receptions in GB history because he sat on the bench. Renaldo Nehemiah and Wilie Gault already proved it doesn't matter how fast you run the field. You still have to catch the ball.

Walker only had 2 years over 60 receptions. Only 2 over 1000 yards. he only started 16 games once. As far as speed he averaged 15 yards a reception. Driver was at 13.6. That is hardly earth shattering.

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Offline Wade  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:04:55 PM(UTC)
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I would put Bob Brown above Gilbert Brown at DT. (Though there has to be someone above both. Did Lionel Aldridge play DT or DE?)

One DB that never seems to get enough love from Packer fans is Willie Buchanon. Much as I am a fan of Sir Charles, I think Buchanon was better.

And I would pick Donny Anderson at punter. His average was tiny by today's standards, but he reinvented the position. Before Anderson it was all about length; he shifted the emphasis to "hang time". 63 punts in 1967. Total return yards: 22. That's about the length of the football per punt. That, IMO, is a punter.
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Offline DakotaT  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 12:05:11 PM(UTC)
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Lists like these are comical. Most of the time the person's age is revealed with the list provided. Do those 60's Packers have the athleticism of today's players. Hell Max McGee would smoke cigarettes in the locker room for God's sakes. My point is that this stuff is subjective. I've Bart Starr proclaim that he couldn't even hold Favre or Rodger's jock strap, yet some say he's the best Packer's QB because he didn't ever choke in the big games. There is a lot of merit to those claims.

Was Leroy Butler really better than Nick Collins? Nick covered a lot of ground and slacker asses, which we have really noticed in his absence the last couple years.

I guess it's pretty awesome to have so many players to choose from. I wonder how difficult this is for Vikings fans with their team?
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Offline sschind  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:16:50 PM(UTC)
sschind

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Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan Go to Quoted Post
The mistake on the original list is that Jim Taylor was a FB.

60's football consisted of a QB, a RB and a FB,

Jim Brown was a FB, if not for taylor playing the same time as Brown, or if Brown had never played, people would probably be talking about Taylor as they do Brown.

Jim Taylor was that good.

Paul Horning was the RB, and IMHO, should be on the list as best RB.

Hard to believe that Hornung could play qb also, was the PK, and when not running the ball, was a damn good blocker for Taylor.

Lists like these, especially for a team like Green Bay, should be split into 3 era's, pre 1950, 1950 - 1980, post 1980.

The evolution of the game makes it hard to compare players , especially if you haven't personally saw them play.

I'm just happy there have been so many great players who have played at lambeau so there can be disagreements about this lis.




Somebody on nfl.com also pointed out that Taylor was a FB and therefore the list should be Taylor and Hornung. Again, I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline sschind  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:23:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
on your 90's on list,
Favre gets the call today. In 5 years I may change my vote.

TE goes to West. JerMike could have taken the spot IF he lived up to all his hype and expectations.

Verba played more OT than OG. But he played both and it is your list so I won't complain. Personally I would vote for Mrs Colledge. Or not.

I liked KGB as a blitz specialist. He didn't perform as well when he was an every down player.

Barnett for the most part was ILB.



I'd put Favre on over Rodgers at this point as well but I do think I will be changing my mind in 5 years. At least I hope Rodgers keeps playing well enough to make it so.

I'd probably take West as well, I was more thinking on what most young people would think and many won't remember West. I'm not a young person, I remember him.

I wasn't all too sure on Verba's or Barnett's main position, I just picked a couple of guys I thought most people would remember.



I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline sschind  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:23:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Wade Go to Quoted Post
I would put Bob Brown above Gilbert Brown at DT. (Though there has to be someone above both. Did Lionel Aldridge play DT or DE?)

One DB that never seems to get enough love from Packer fans is Willie Buchanon. Much as I am a fan of Sir Charles, I think Buchanon was better.

And I would pick Donny Anderson at punter. His average was tiny by today's standards, but he reinvented the position. Before Anderson it was all about length; he shifted the emphasis to "hang time". 63 punts in 1967. Total return yards: 22. That's about the length of the football per punt. That, IMO, is a punter.


Willie Buchanon would be a very good choice as well

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline sschind  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:30:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wpr Go to Quoted Post
love this post.
You can win games with both of those teams.

I will have to put a little thought into it but off the top of my head I can see why Lofton as the Hofer gets the nod over Sharpe. That said without injuries Sterling would have had an excellent chance to make The Hall too. I give Sharpe the slot in a close vote where we have to count the hanging chads.

Digger is a fine choice. He clogged the middle and stopped the run. He may not have had sexy stats but he was a beast in his prime. Sack antics aside.

Even though he didn't play in GB for most of his career I would go for Jan Stenerud over Longwell. It is a nice luxury to have two qualified kickers.



Lofton was really my first "favorite" Packer player (well actually it was Steve Odom but he wouldn't make the list) so I am a bit biased on him over Sharpe. I do agree that had Sterling not gotten injured he most likely would be in the HOF now and I think if he stayed with the Packers he would still hold all the Packers receiving records by a fair margin. Still, I wouldn't disagree too strenuously on Sharpe over Lofton. IMO it's probably the closest vote.

I respect your right to have your opinion but that doesn't mean I agree with it or respect you for having it.
Offline texaspackerbacker  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:39:05 PM(UTC)
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Buckeye, you beat me to it about Taylor being a "true" fullback. It makes more sense to have two RBs anyway, considering the long history of split backs and the current de-emphasis of fullbacks in the I.

I disagree about the worthlessness of such lists. It's fun, and SOME old-timers appreciate the modern, while SOME young have a sense of history.

I would make the following CORRECTIONS - since I'll put my knowledge and memory of the Packers glory years WAY above the author of the article.

Punter: Masthay is better already than Hentrich, although I'm not so sure Boyd Dowler wasn't better than both.

Kicker: Don Chandler was a lot better than either Longwell or Stenerud (in his Packer years).

QB: Dakota found his daily acorn. Starr was a hero of my childhood, but he is NOT on the same level as Favre or Rodgers. For now, I'd put Favre as #1, but with a probable change to Rodgers by the time he is done.

RB: No love for John Brockington? I'd go with him slightly over Hornung, and of course, Jim Taylor as the top RB.

WR: This may be the toughest one of all - the second after Hutson. Nobody mentioned Dowler and Dale. I'd have to go with Lofton, though - way better than Sharpe. Driver has to be way above Walker in the recent era if performance is the criterion.

TE: Unlike most positions, we never had a superstar there. I'd have to agree, Coffman - by a small margin over Ron Kramer.

O-Line: Ringo at Center, obviously Jerry Kramer and Forest Gregg at Guard and Tackle. Beyond that, I'd take Gale Gillingham as the other Guard. Cal Hubbard was a baseball umpire by the time I was old enough to know anything, but I understand he would be deserving of that other spot.

D-Line: White and Davis works for me at DE. We never had a superstar DT in my lifetime. Jordan would probably get one spot. I don't really like Gilbert Brown for the other spot, but I can't think of anybody else either. Wade, Aldridge was a DE, as was Bob Brown.

MLB: Nobody comes close to Nitschke.

OLB: What? Nobody remembers the Mad Stork, Ted Hendrixx? He's my top pick. Tim Harris, the six guns guy, was pretty good too, but I'd put Clay Matthews ahead of him and well ahead of Dave Robinson.

Corner: Herb Adderley for sure. I'd go along with Willie Buchanon by a small margin over Woodson for the second spot. Tim Lewis would have been that second if he hadn't gotten hurt. I didn't realize until I Googled him that he is the same guy who coaches the Atlanta secondary.

Safety: Nobody beats Willie Wood. I'd put Nick Collins ahead of Butler if ability is the criterion, but on sum total of career, Butler comes out ahead.

No Coach was mentioned. Does anybody have a better one in mind than Vince? I sure don't.
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