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Offline rodgehodge  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:44:47 AM(UTC)
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another great post, +1
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Wouldn't know how to do without these pics and analysis Rock. +1 again.

Josh Bell should be our nickel back.


I have to agree with that. I know he gave up the touchdown, but I was actually pretty impressed with how well Bell played that down considering he's only a second year player and new to the team. Like other people have said, not a lot of corners are going to be able to make that play, and it looks like he should have had some help over the top (presumably Bigby judging from this post). Anyway, judging by what little I saw of Bell in this game I'd like to see him given a chance over Bush for sure.
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Offline Rockmolder  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:25:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Um, let's settle down a bit.

Firstly, I have to disagree with Rock in his analysis; way too subjective and to be blunt he got it wrong. I guessed yesterday that Bell was at fault, and Leroy Butler confirmed that he was in his 5 Questions series.

Quote:
Theres no way that Bell should be inside of that receiver. He should be outside that receiver so he can push him toward Atari Bigby.

Link

Bigby, Collins, and Woodson are playing 3 deep safety. The whole emphasis of the play should be to force your guys inside, towards help. You have two of the better ball hawks in the league in Woodson and Collins , free to roam, and then you have Bigby as help, too. You force your guy inside, towards the help, and force Ben to throw into a crowd.

So in the end, Atari was doing fine, but Bell not so much so.

Bell made a mental blip, which should not be surprising considering he has had less than a month to digest Capers heavy playbook.



Capers is not at fault, IMO. People are unbelievably mad at him... which I can understand, but you can't blame Capers for having to use a 4th CB that is young and inexperienced, and also hasn't had a lot of time to understand his assignments.


I agree with you. Like I stated, the call was actually quite nice, assuming it was a regular cover 3 man. There should be no way that you give up a huge TD in that case.

The only thing I put on Dom is the personnel on the field. Mainly who's rushing the passer.

But, anyway, Butler is right. Of course he is. Only problem I have is that, on the third pic, Bigby is just running into his own zone. He was defending somewhere as far back as the goalpost when that ball was thrown. What exactly was Bell supposed to lead him into? Open field? Bigby was way out of position. Had Bell done his assigned job, we'd be over here blaming Bigby for being out of position or Bell for being out of position.

Now whether Bell knew that he got not help from Bigby is a mistery. I'm guessing that he didn't, and that he just played it wrong, but for me, the blame in this one falls on Bigby. He's the one who wasn't where he should be. He's the one that forced Bell to go for the ball, anyway.
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Offline dfosterf  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:53:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post

How many ways does this coaching staff have to recognize/have it beat into their friggin' heads that the prevent has not and will not friggin' work against a good quarterback?

Dom gave that game away.

Better wake up quick, Dom. Stubborn stupid shit, imo



You know, with all due respect, this post is downright idiotic. I can understand the anger of losing that game, of how we should have won and everything... But you honestly shouldn't take a series alone in and of itself to come to conclusions.

Before the final drive, Big Ben carved our defense. Even saying that is an understatement.

Hell, first play of the game, Bush gets beat. Straight man coverage, 4 rushing, and we got burned. You don't think Capers is aware of this when deciding to go to Prevent?

As a DC, you put your players in position to make plays. How many times on the final drive were our players in position to make plays? A heck of a lot.

Chillar commits a penalty, wipes out an INT. Woodson can't hold on to an INT. Jenkins tries to tackle Roethlisberger high, and he can't bring him down. Tramon has a chance to INT a pass for Holmes, he drops it. That's four right there. For what it's worth, Bob McGinn lists the number of times the Packers missed ending the game on the final Steelers drive at 6. Out of 15 plays, then, McGinn counts the Packers as having been in position to close out the game 6 times.


Perhaps we should read what Capers has to say, about going to prevent.

Quote:
"Obviously, you get influenced when on the first play of the game they threw the ball over the top of us for a touchdown ... You don't want to let them go the distance in one play, you want to make them have to work and make a play."


Insider article link


Look, you want to be mad at Capers for underestimating the inexperience his DBs had... fine. You want to blame Capers, who has coached DBs himself, for not making sure his young players knew what to do, be my guest.


To start attacking Capers for irrationally running Prevent on the final drive is to come off as engaging in nonsensical rambling.

Which, to be quite frank, a few people seem to be doing in the wake of the loss.


I was talking about the Green Bay vs. Pittsburgh game. You must have been watching a different one.

Not only did we have no pressure on Big Ben, we had no potential for one. I personally never mentioned the secondary, because without pass pressure, I don't expect anything but precisely what happened. 3 man rush...consisting of 3 worn-out Defensive linemen? Dom Capers can say (as can you) whatever they want, however irrational in the face of the obvious evidence. I know what I saw. Maybe at some point when we are all sitting on our couch in the off-season, someone will bother to go back and analyze just how effective our #2 on paper defense was when we rushed 3. I already know the answer.
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Offline MassPackersFan  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 12:34:52 PM(UTC)
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Great analysis and screen caps.

You should add another screen capture showing Jolly after he beat his blocker and was practically dragged down by his jersey from behind, trying to get to Ben.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:21:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
But, anyway, Butler is right. Of course he is. Only problem I have is that, on the third pic, Bigby is just running into his own zone. He was defending somewhere as far back as the goalpost when that ball was thrown. What exactly was Bell supposed to lead him into? Open field? Bigby was way out of position.



Bigby being as far as the goalpost can't be right.... three deep safety calls for three safties on the goal line.


As for Bigby running into his zone, it's his job to read an react. It might be the case that once he saw Wallace heading towards the sideline, he decided to cheat by sliding over into Collins area.

You do raise an interesting point, and Bigby may very well have been out of position. But then again, he may have been out of position because he saw Bell forcing his guy outside, and so he decided to creep over to the side with that had more receivers emerging.
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Offline all_about_da_packers  
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:27:28 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
I was talking about the Green Bay vs. Pittsburgh game. You must have been watching a different one.


Are we talking about the game or the last drive?

Because on the last drive I remember having a sack taken away by a penalty, the Steelers o-line having a couple of false starts (which I attribute to an attempt to impede the rusher early), Jenkins missing a sack, and Jolly getting mauled down to the ground.


Fact is, on the final drive, the players had ample chances to end the game through INTs. The players were in position to make plays, which is what Capers should focus on doing - putting players in position to make plays.


The fact that they didn't ... to blame Dom and his calls for that is simply wrong. And stupid.

Blame Capers for the subs he used (really, Wynn on the last play? Wynn?!). Blame him for not adjusting his game plan enough.

I'm saying you can't pin the loss on poor play calling and scheming on the final drive. The fact that the players had ample opportunities to make plays but didn't is the real problem, IMO.
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Offline buckeyepackfan  
#22 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:27:57 PM(UTC)
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JMHO, I had no problem with the 3 man rush as the Steelers were trying to move the ball down the field. as has been stated, there were several times The Packers had a chance to end the game.

This WAS GOING TO BE THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME(maybe one more).
I was hoping to see DC put in a blitz package,put pressure on the QB make Ben force a throw, then if he throws a TD, well at least we wouldn't have let him slide around for 10 seconds so he could find the one guy who had single coverage. I could live with the defense being beaten when they were doing what they do best, either way IMHO this game is going to be more of a plus than minus going into the post-season.
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Offline istanbulpacker  
#23 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:01:48 PM(UTC)
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First off, +1 to Rock for a great analysis of this particular play. McCarren went over it in the Locker Room and you can see by the way Bell has his outer foot placed that he was supposed to keep his receiver to the inside. From the overhead view, it shows that he is a bit outside the WR and angling such that the WR will be forced inside towards his help (Bigby). For whatever reason, he allowed the WR to get to the outside of him forcing the man coverage situation that Pitt wanted. Bell did what he could in man coverage but this was a perfectly executed play by Pitt.

Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post


You know, with all due respect, this post is downright idiotic. I can understand the anger of losing that game, of how we should have won and everything... But you honestly shouldn't take a series alone in and of itself to come to conclusions.


I quoted above because, while a bit harshly worded, is right on the money. Sure, this 1 play gave up the TD but that whole drive was terrible. THREE Packer penalties. Pitt converting a 4th and 7, a 3rd & 15, and then the TD on 3rd & 10. Completions of 32, 15, 20, and 19 yards. But this series wasn't the only problem. Big Ben with ~17 yards per completion during the whole game. WOW!

Capers has some work to do if we are still hoping for the playoffs.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#24 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:17:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post


Are we talking about the game or the last drive?

Because on the last drive I remember having a sack taken away by a penalty, the Steelers o-line having a couple of false starts (which I attribute to an attempt to impede the rusher early), Jenkins missing a sack, and Jolly getting mauled down to the ground.


Fact is, on the final drive, the players had ample chances to end the game through INTs. The players were in position to make plays, which is what Capers should focus on doing - putting players in position to make plays.


The fact that they didn't ... to blame Dom and his calls for that is simply wrong. And stupid.

Blame Capers for the subs he used (really, Wynn on the last play? Wynn?!). Blame him for not adjusting his game plan enough.

I'm saying you can't pin the loss on poor play calling and scheming on the final drive. The fact that the players had ample opportunities to make plays but didn't is the real problem, IMO.


AADP - It is not wrong and not stupid.

History shows us that the prevent D again and again fails. When teams get conservative, they lose.

I've written numerous articles on aggression and how aggression is a good thing.

We should have rushed four. You can blame the refs. You can make all these other excuses. Simple fact is on the very last drive, had we gotten just one sack, the game would have ended with us in the W column.

It's Capers fault we rushed 3 people and gave Ben all the time he needed to find an open receiver.

We have a problem - our #1 CB is out for the season. Remember the Giants of '07? They had a very average secondary. They won the SB by beating the best O ever with a pass rush to compensate for their very average secondary.

Pass rush compensates for weaknesses in secondaries. History tells us this. History also tells us that rushing 3 people allows a good QB (and right now Big Ben is an elite QB) all the time he needs to find an open receiver.

David may be rambling and you may be composed but he is right and you are wrong.
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Offline dfosterf  
#25 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:55:26 PM(UTC)
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lol


Zombie--

I owe you a major apology. Not for anything either one of us said, but for what I was thinking you were gonna say in your last post.

Unbeknown-st to probably 99.99% of our fellow members, Zombie and I went after each other about an issue that had a major impact on Sunday.

...And we had our little tiff PRIOR to the game.

It was a thread about the fall of the Steelers this year, contrasted with their (still, to me) incredible performance last year. I was giving MAJOR props to Big Ben, because I felt (and still do) that he accomplished so much with an inferior offensive line last year. I went on to say that the Steelers fall from grace this year could be easily assigned to that o-line failure.

Zombie took my perspective as being overly charitable to Big Ben, citing his (Zombie's) study of "Defense wins championships". I (in semi-jest--and said it as such at the time) stated that d coordinators came up with that line. I'm not re-opening that line of argument, except to state MY truism, TEAMS win championships.

I bring this up because my respect for Ben as a tough nut to crack--which is what got lost in that discussion--his ability to buy time, much of it due to his sheer size...well, 500+ yards says a lot.

I was talking about the last drive. Some have argued that Mason cost us the game. I never went there. Some have argued that Bush cost us the game. I never went there either. I have said my piece on Bush a year ago, and him playing "better"--well, someone else can argue that one. We had to dance with the girls we brung. I submit that the biggest competitive advantage possible was to put as much heat on Ben as we could, and further that a worn-out defensive front, rushing 3 worn-out, had little or no chance of doing so against a Big Ben. His "skill set" is in large part due, again... to his sheer mass.

We almost got it done. I will concede that much. The Japanese almost got it done when they sunk the USS Indianapolis, 4 days after they delivered the first operational atomic bomb to Tinian island. It didn't work for the Japanese and the prevent didn't work for Dom.

While you guys analyze that final play, kindly look at the progressions that Dom and co. allowed Big Ben to go through to make that throw.

(How's THAT for a ramble---equating our prevent to Hiroshima getting nuked--proud of that one, lol)
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Offline zombieslayer  
#26 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:04:41 PM(UTC)
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David - I don't remember it being a tiff. I thought you were really civil. Was I out of line?
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Offline dfosterf  
#27 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:13:12 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: " Go to Quoted Post
David - I don't remember it being a tiff. I thought you were really civil. Was I out of line?


Not at all.

The "tiff" part was because you interpreted my praise of Ben as more than what I intended it to be. I fully recognized what you were saying about the Steelers D, but was injecting my "adjunct" to it. In large part to the media over-hyping Ben, you seemed to assign a lot of that hype to me as well. I was concentrating on the concept that Big Ben does well with a shitty o-line, but I felt like my nuanced praise got lost in the discussion as a more generalized praise of Ben. That was all.
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Offline Nonstopdrivel  
#28 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:23:13 PM(UTC)
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I used to work in a TIF.

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How the f*ck this picture was allowed to be taken, I haven't the faintest clue. I would have been court martialed for a picture like this.
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Offline zombieslayer  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:05:40 PM(UTC)
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David - Just to make it clear, in '09, I'd call him an elite QB. He was not an elite QB in either of the SBs he won. Just in the right place at the right time. Kind of like Troy Aikman.

Even more reason to rush 4 people. I still want to leave the bag of flaming poo on Dom Capers' front porch.
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Offline Blank402  
#30 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:06:37 PM(UTC)
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Bigby wasn't supposed to be supplying coverage over the top. How could he? There's only about three yards to the back of the end zone to cover. Bigby was doing what he was supposed to be doing, which is take away the inside of the endzone from Wallace. Bell made the mistake by not staying underneath. If he stays underneath and forces Rothlisberger to throw it high, he gets a shot at pushing Wallace out the back of the ends zone or getting a hand on the ball. If Wallace cuts back inside Bigby's there to help out in coverage.

It was Bell who made the mistake on the play by not staying underneath.
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