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all_about_da_packers  
#41 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:27:28 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
I was talking about the Green Bay vs. Pittsburgh game. You must have been watching a different one.


Are we talking about the game or the last drive?

Because on the last drive I remember having a sack taken away by a penalty, the Steelers o-line having a couple of false starts (which I attribute to an attempt to impede the rusher early), Jenkins missing a sack, and Jolly getting mauled down to the ground.


Fact is, on the final drive, the players had ample chances to end the game through INTs. The players were in position to make plays, which is what Capers should focus on doing - putting players in position to make plays.


The fact that they didn't ... to blame Dom and his calls for that is simply wrong. And stupid.

Blame Capers for the subs he used (really, Wynn on the last play? Wynn?!). Blame him for not adjusting his game plan enough.

I'm saying you can't pin the loss on poor play calling and scheming on the final drive. The fact that the players had ample opportunities to make plays but didn't is the real problem, IMO.
buckeyepackfan  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:27:57 PM(UTC)
JMHO, I had no problem with the 3 man rush as the Steelers were trying to move the ball down the field. as has been stated, there were several times The Packers had a chance to end the game.

This WAS GOING TO BE THE LAST PLAY OF THE GAME(maybe one more).
I was hoping to see DC put in a blitz package,put pressure on the QB make Ben force a throw, then if he throws a TD, well at least we wouldn't have let him slide around for 10 seconds so he could find the one guy who had single coverage. I could live with the defense being beaten when they were doing what they do best, either way IMHO this game is going to be more of a plus than minus going into the post-season.
istanbulpacker  
#43 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:01:48 PM(UTC)
First off, +1 to Rock for a great analysis of this particular play. McCarren went over it in the Locker Room and you can see by the way Bell has his outer foot placed that he was supposed to keep his receiver to the inside. From the overhead view, it shows that he is a bit outside the WR and angling such that the WR will be forced inside towards his help (Bigby). For whatever reason, he allowed the WR to get to the outside of him forcing the man coverage situation that Pitt wanted. Bell did what he could in man coverage but this was a perfectly executed play by Pitt.

" said: Go to Quoted Post


You know, with all due respect, this post is downright idiotic. I can understand the anger of losing that game, of how we should have won and everything... But you honestly shouldn't take a series alone in and of itself to come to conclusions.


I quoted above because, while a bit harshly worded, is right on the money. Sure, this 1 play gave up the TD but that whole drive was terrible. THREE Packer penalties. Pitt converting a 4th and 7, a 3rd & 15, and then the TD on 3rd & 10. Completions of 32, 15, 20, and 19 yards. But this series wasn't the only problem. Big Ben with ~17 yards per completion during the whole game. WOW!

Capers has some work to do if we are still hoping for the playoffs.
zombieslayer  
#44 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:17:39 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post


Are we talking about the game or the last drive?

Because on the last drive I remember having a sack taken away by a penalty, the Steelers o-line having a couple of false starts (which I attribute to an attempt to impede the rusher early), Jenkins missing a sack, and Jolly getting mauled down to the ground.


Fact is, on the final drive, the players had ample chances to end the game through INTs. The players were in position to make plays, which is what Capers should focus on doing - putting players in position to make plays.


The fact that they didn't ... to blame Dom and his calls for that is simply wrong. And stupid.

Blame Capers for the subs he used (really, Wynn on the last play? Wynn?!). Blame him for not adjusting his game plan enough.

I'm saying you can't pin the loss on poor play calling and scheming on the final drive. The fact that the players had ample opportunities to make plays but didn't is the real problem, IMO.


AADP - It is not wrong and not stupid.

History shows us that the prevent D again and again fails. When teams get conservative, they lose.

I've written numerous articles on aggression and how aggression is a good thing.

We should have rushed four. You can blame the refs. You can make all these other excuses. Simple fact is on the very last drive, had we gotten just one sack, the game would have ended with us in the W column.

It's Capers fault we rushed 3 people and gave Ben all the time he needed to find an open receiver.

We have a problem - our #1 CB is out for the season. Remember the Giants of '07? They had a very average secondary. They won the SB by beating the best O ever with a pass rush to compensate for their very average secondary.

Pass rush compensates for weaknesses in secondaries. History tells us this. History also tells us that rushing 3 people allows a good QB (and right now Big Ben is an elite QB) all the time he needs to find an open receiver.

David may be rambling and you may be composed but he is right and you are wrong.
dfosterf  
#45 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:55:26 PM(UTC)
lol


Zombie--

I owe you a major apology. Not for anything either one of us said, but for what I was thinking you were gonna say in your last post.

Unbeknown-st to probably 99.99% of our fellow members, Zombie and I went after each other about an issue that had a major impact on Sunday.

...And we had our little tiff PRIOR to the game.

It was a thread about the fall of the Steelers this year, contrasted with their (still, to me) incredible performance last year. I was giving MAJOR props to Big Ben, because I felt (and still do) that he accomplished so much with an inferior offensive line last year. I went on to say that the Steelers fall from grace this year could be easily assigned to that o-line failure.

Zombie took my perspective as being overly charitable to Big Ben, citing his (Zombie's) study of "Defense wins championships". I (in semi-jest--and said it as such at the time) stated that d coordinators came up with that line. I'm not re-opening that line of argument, except to state MY truism, TEAMS win championships.

I bring this up because my respect for Ben as a tough nut to crack--which is what got lost in that discussion--his ability to buy time, much of it due to his sheer size...well, 500+ yards says a lot.

I was talking about the last drive. Some have argued that Mason cost us the game. I never went there. Some have argued that Bush cost us the game. I never went there either. I have said my piece on Bush a year ago, and him playing "better"--well, someone else can argue that one. We had to dance with the girls we brung. I submit that the biggest competitive advantage possible was to put as much heat on Ben as we could, and further that a worn-out defensive front, rushing 3 worn-out, had little or no chance of doing so against a Big Ben. His "skill set" is in large part due, again... to his sheer mass.

We almost got it done. I will concede that much. The Japanese almost got it done when they sunk the USS Indianapolis, 4 days after they delivered the first operational atomic bomb to Tinian island. It didn't work for the Japanese and the prevent didn't work for Dom.

While you guys analyze that final play, kindly look at the progressions that Dom and co. allowed Big Ben to go through to make that throw.

(How's THAT for a ramble---equating our prevent to Hiroshima getting nuked--proud of that one, lol)
zombieslayer  
#46 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:04:41 PM(UTC)
David - I don't remember it being a tiff. I thought you were really civil. Was I out of line?
dfosterf  
#47 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:13:12 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
David - I don't remember it being a tiff. I thought you were really civil. Was I out of line?


Not at all.

The "tiff" part was because you interpreted my praise of Ben as more than what I intended it to be. I fully recognized what you were saying about the Steelers D, but was injecting my "adjunct" to it. In large part to the media over-hyping Ben, you seemed to assign a lot of that hype to me as well. I was concentrating on the concept that Big Ben does well with a shitty o-line, but I felt like my nuanced praise got lost in the discussion as a more generalized praise of Ben. That was all.
Nonstopdrivel  
#48 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 3:23:13 PM(UTC)
I used to work in a TIF.

UserPostedImage

How the fuck this picture was allowed to be taken, I haven't the faintest clue. I would have been court martialed for a picture like this.
zombieslayer  
#49 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 4:05:40 PM(UTC)
David - Just to make it clear, in '09, I'd call him an elite QB. He was not an elite QB in either of the SBs he won. Just in the right place at the right time. Kind of like Troy Aikman.

Even more reason to rush 4 people. I still want to leave the bag of flaming poo on Dom Capers' front porch.
Blank402  
#50 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:06:37 PM(UTC)
Bigby wasn't supposed to be supplying coverage over the top. How could he? There's only about three yards to the back of the end zone to cover. Bigby was doing what he was supposed to be doing, which is take away the inside of the endzone from Wallace. Bell made the mistake by not staying underneath. If he stays underneath and forces Rothlisberger to throw it high, he gets a shot at pushing Wallace out the back of the ends zone or getting a hand on the ball. If Wallace cuts back inside Bigby's there to help out in coverage.

It was Bell who made the mistake on the play by not staying underneath.
all_about_da_packers  
#51 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:07:49 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
AADP - It is not wrong and not stupid.

History shows us that the prevent D again and again fails. When teams get conservative, they lose.



I'm not arguing against that at all. My point is that based on the entire game, given that Ben had abused our DBs the entire game, be it in man, zone, what have you.... well Dom is really limited with his options. Add to that the QB is a dude built like a truck, very difficult to bring down and capable of breaking tackles... well there is a reason Capers went Prevent.

To not even raise the possible reasons Capers employed the packages he did on the last drive, and just outright blame him for even attempting to run Prevent is ridiculous.

Yes, in hindsight Prevent was a mistake. Even then, it was so because of a missed assignment, not the scheme itself.

Heck, you have Mike Tomlin come out after the game and say that the 3 deep safety package Dom called is very tough to score on, and admit that any other place the ball was thrown would've meant a loss.... well I think that shows the problem of blaming Capers ... his play calling wasn't the problem. Players were in position to make plays. That they didn't should reflect poorly on execution.


" said: Go to Quoted Post
We have a problem - our #1 CB is out for the season. Remember the Giants of '07? They had a very average secondary. They won the SB by beating the best O ever with a pass rush to compensate for their very average secondary.


Taking nothing away from their pass rush, but you have to acknowledge the play of CB Corey Webster and Safety Gibril Wilson. Those two guys stepped it up huge, and were a key part of the Giants success.
zombieslayer  
#52 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:30:11 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
AADP - It is not wrong and not stupid.

History shows us that the prevent D again and again fails. When teams get conservative, they lose.



I'm not arguing against that at all. My point is that based on the entire game, given that Ben had abused our DBs the entire game, be it in man, zone, what have you.... well Dom is really limited with his options. Add to that the QB is a dude built like a truck, very difficult to bring down and capable of breaking tackles... well there is a reason Capers went Prevent.

To not even raise the possible reasons Capers employed the packages he did on the last drive, and just outright blame him for even attempting to run Prevent is ridiculous.

Yes, in hindsight Prevent was a mistake. Even then, it was so because of a missed assignment, not the scheme itself.

Heck, you have Mike Tomlin come out after the game and say that the 3 deep safety package Dom called is very tough to score on, and admit that any other place the ball was thrown would've meant a loss.... well I think that shows the problem of blaming Capers ... his play calling wasn't the problem. Players were in position to make plays. That they didn't should reflect poorly on execution.


" said: Go to Quoted Post
We have a problem - our #1 CB is out for the season. Remember the Giants of '07? They had a very average secondary. They won the SB by beating the best O ever with a pass rush to compensate for their very average secondary.


Taking nothing away from their pass rush, but you have to acknowledge the play of CB Corey Webster and Safety Gibril Wilson. Those two guys stepped it up huge, and were a key part of the Giants success.


AADP - The Giants secondary was average at best. Favre proved that in '07. They couldn't do anything against Favre. So Coughlin (or whomever made the adjustments) adjusted accordingly. During the SB, he ran so many blitz fakes and timed blitzes that the Pats OL was confused and Brady spent a lot of time on his ass.

Of course Mike Tomlin is going to say that. If your opponent is being stupid, you don't tell him he's being stupid. You let him believe he's being smart and continue to exploit his idiocy. If someone throws a grenade at you without pulling the pin, you don't hand him back his grenade, explain to him that he has to pull the pin out first, then let him throw it again.

And yes, it was a mistake. It's been a mistake this whole year and all of last year. Look, EVERYONE makes mistakes. The difference between intelligence and stupidity is intelligence, you learn from your mistakes. Stupidity, you keep making the same mistakes.
dyeah_gb  
#53 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:14:51 PM(UTC)
+1 for the great pictures and commentary. That play was a kick in the nuts. As a matter of fact hat whole last drive by the Steeleres makes me sick. Over the span of a decade the Packers have proven notorious at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Pack - Eagles NFC Championship
Pack - Giants NFC Championship

I just want them to win one of the next two and get this young team some playoff experience
PackFanWithTwins  
#54 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 8:26:05 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
" said: Go to Quoted Post
AADP - It is not wrong and not stupid.

History shows us that the prevent D again and again fails. When teams get conservative, they lose.



I'm not arguing against that at all. My point is that based on the entire game, given that Ben had abused our DBs the entire game, be it in man, zone, what have you.... well Dom is really limited with his options. Add to that the QB is a dude built like a truck, very difficult to bring down and capable of breaking tackles... well there is a reason Capers went Prevent.

To not even raise the possible reasons Capers employed the packages he did on the last drive, and just outright blame him for even attempting to run Prevent is ridiculous.

Yes, in hindsight Prevent was a mistake. Even then, it was so because of a missed assignment, not the scheme itself.

Heck, you have Mike Tomlin come out after the game and say that the 3 deep safety package Dom called is very tough to score on, and admit that any other place the ball was thrown would've meant a loss.... well I think that shows the problem of blaming Capers ... his play calling wasn't the problem. Players were in position to make plays. That they didn't should reflect poorly on execution.


Doesn't that ring true for every play. If a run fails, it is because it was not executed correct, if a pass play fails same, and if a defense doesn't work it is because of execution. No coach draws up a play offensively or defensively as a failure. It is always execution.

But when our DBs have had a hard time, you don't give the QB more time by not rushing, you get after him. We sacked Ben 5 times in the game. That means we could get him, but in not 1 of those sacks were we rushing 3. Our defense has not been one that gets pressure by rushing even a base package. It gets pressure from being unpredictable, and on that drive, were were anything but that.
gopackers08  
#55 Posted : Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:47:09 PM(UTC)
First of all +1 for Rock. This is amazing analysis. The only issue I have with it is all the pictures made me throw up in my mouth again. I had to watch this game with a couple of Steelers fans and this last drive was pure unpleasantness to sit through.

Bottom line is why in the world are we playing prevent defense with 3 seconds left??? Dont play a zone scheme when all you have to cover is the end zone. Play man to man and safeties should be UP in coverage.

This game really eats me up because until now this was a game we lost every time LAST YEAR and a game that we won every time THIS YEAR. I just hope there is absolutely no hangover on the packers from this heartbreaker.

That being said the offense played really well and I hope to see more of that today! GO PACK GO!!!
JerseyAl  
#56 Posted : Sunday, January 17, 2010 2:20:34 PM(UTC)
If I can add one thing. In addition to what was pointed out in this post, one other factor needs to be mentioned. When Bell plants his feet to dive for the ball, they slip out from under him. Thus he doesn't get the extension he might have and comes up short in getting a hand on the ball. Watch his feet on the replay, and in the closeup picture above, you can see some turf being kicked up. I think without this slip, he gets a hand on the ball. Not that any of this matters, but just wanted to mention it...
Rockmolder  
#57 Posted : Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:19:27 PM(UTC)
" said: Go to Quoted Post
If I can add one thing. In addition to what was pointed out in this post, one other factor needs to be mentioned. When Bell plants his feet to dive for the ball, they slip out from under him. Thus he doesn't get the extension he might have and comes up short in getting a hand on the ball. Watch his feet on the replay, and in the closeup picture above, you can see some turf being kicked up. I think without this slip, he gets a hand on the ball. Not that any of this matters, but just wanted to mention it...


Nice. Didn't even notice that. Under the circumstances, Bell played that one perfectly, if you ask me. It might not've been his original assignment, but with no safety help anywhere close to him, this was all that he could do.
Zero2Cool  
#58 Posted : Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:21:23 PM(UTC)
I think it was a good play.
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