Zero2Cool
13 years ago
I'm really bad at reading cursive. Can anyone decipher what is written in the red outlined areas please? I think this might be my great-great-grandfather when he first immigrated to the US from Ireland.
 PatrickDuggan.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
13 years ago
First read box..


Prothonotary 
of the Court of Common Pleas of Lehigh County

Basically by order of the chief clerk of this particular court.

Second Red Box..

Witness (don't know the second word)

Third Box (as I read it)

Emperor of India, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland


Date Box - 1818 (as I read it) Could be 78?

Last Box.. (his) Mark
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
Thank you, Shawn. After I read what you said. I think it might be "Emperor of India Queen of Great Britain Ireland" maybe?

The date fields as I'm thinking ...
- Port of New York 30th of October 1870
- 25th of September 1876
- Sworn in 4th of October 1880


I don't understand why the first and last name have an X between them with 'his' above, and 'mark' below it. What's up with that?


Witness Cuagner ?


UserPostedImage
Pack93z
13 years ago


- Sworn in 4th of October 1880


I don't understand why the first and last name have an X between them with 'his' above, and 'mark' below it. What's up with that?


Witness Cuagner ?

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



After a second look with your response.. yes I believe what I thought was a 1 is a scribbled out start of the year.. it looks like 1880. maybe the mistake was like a 7 as in 79? Caught it and made the adjustment.

His Mark with the X very well may have been to note that he actually signed the document, maybe in those times with schooling not a standard, all did not actually sign the document. See here  to another document around that time..


Second Google page..


Unfortunately , because my great-grandfather was illiterate, several documents, including his naturalization papers, had his last name misspelled as Palmieri rather than Palmeri. Indeed, on his Declaration of Intent (Exhibit A), signed XXXXX, he signed by giving “his mark” and someone else signed his name on his behalf and presumably filled out the form for him as well

.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
Wow, this is fascinating beyond words! So, someone would write their signature and they would 'draw' an X to indicate it's accuracy, although they couldn't really do as such because they were illiterate.

Also, I just found out that my Grandpa Dugan remarried and she's on Facebook. I'm trying to think of words to say to her, lol.
UserPostedImage
gbguy20
13 years ago
this putting an x next to ur signature thing makes absolutely no sense to me
BAD EMAIL because the address couldn ot be found, or is unable to receive mail.
Zero2Cool
13 years ago

this putting an x next to ur signature thing makes absolutely no sense to me

Originally Posted by: gbguy20 



I think it's more so to identify that it is not the actual signature of the person, rather than the person saying it is their signature.

If you see the X, you know they didn't write it themselves and were most likely illiterate.
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
It's "Empress of India," not "Emperor". That tells me the mistake date has to be 1877 or 1878 or 1879. It's a title that Benjamin Disraeli gave to Queen Victoria -- I don't remember the exact date when he did so, but Disraeli was a major player (and sometime prime minister) during the latter part of the 19th century. Victoria reigned from 1837 to 1901.

(Disraeli v. William Gladstone was the major political rivalry for a couple decades -- I'm not sure America has ever had this kind of long-duration rivalry among the leaders of the two major parties. Victoria didn't like Gladstone much -- he was severe and serious and generally kind of boring. Disraeli, on the other hand was a bit of a dandy and knew how to suck up to royalty (e.g. the "Empress of India" idea.)

And since depending on the scrivener and the quality of his ink, either a "9" or a "7" could easily fade to look like a "1" -- the cursive 1 gets a little tail at the top.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
Interesting. This is probably a dumb question, but for clarity purposes ... the Empress of India and Queen of Great Britain are not the same person, correct?


Edit, further reading on the document when it was submitted ... it claims the date of the papers is 4 Oct 1889. That doesn't make sense. He arrived 1870, but wasn't naturalized until 1889? 19 years?
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

Interesting. This is probably a dumb question, but for clarity purposes ... the Empress of India and Queen of Great Britain are not the same person, correct?


Edit, further reading on the document when it was submitted ... it claims the date of the papers is 4 Oct 1889. That doesn't make sense. He arrived 1870, but wasn't naturalized until 1889? 19 years?

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



1. They are different titles. But they are held by the same person. It was a typically British move. The East India Company had essentially overthrown the line of Mughal emperors. But when the East India Company was dissolved (late 1860s), the English still had this, er, imperial attitude toward "The Raj". And therefore it was only natural for a Tory like Disraeli to convince the queen that it wouldn't hurt to be an empress, too. (If I recall correctly -- kings and queens never did so much for me; they were well on their way out as anything but a symbol already by this time -- but I think Victoria's daughter was going to be emperor when her husband ascended to the German throne, so one couldn't have the "superior" British queen/mom with the lesser title.

2. 19 years isn't that surprising for naturalization.

Today, everything is complicated by "green cards" and other visa questions. But 19th century immigration was a different thing. There was "border control," but once the person was in, they were pretty much in. Too, immigrants tended to do one of two things -- either they moved inland very soon, or they lived in ethnic "ghettos" (a term that today tends to get equated to "slum" but originally simply indicated an area of a city where one or another nationality concentrated. If you were an Irish immigrant, you moved to where other other Irish were. Germans moved to where the Germans were, Hungarians to the other Hungarians, etc.

It wasn't a time of great prosperity for all of them, and almost all of them had to deal with various kinds of bigotry, nativism, discrimination, municipal corruption, etc. But the feds and the "need for papers" -- those were 20th century "innovations".

One of the great freedoms that everyone took for granted in the nineteenth century was the freedom of movement. The only ones who couldn't move were the slaves -- and even they were allowed to move if they managed to get far enough north or west (at least until the Compromise of 1850).

Also a function of the 20th century and the spread of technologies of communication and electrification was the regular concern with daily politics and other things demanding an assertion of "citizenship" to participate. Things such as the "privilege" of paying income taxes -- it was Lincoln's (ahem!) innovation, but only with the 16th amendment in 1913 would it have the consensus of legitimacy that, unfortunately, it enjoys now.

So, while your ancestor would have been able to become a citizen relatively easily (essentially had to demonstrate a sufficient ability to speak English) after he got past any border restrictions, he probably wouldn't have needed to. Many inhabitants of the ghettos of this era never bothered.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (22m) : Packers signed someone for three year deal
Zero2Cool (23m) : lol i know it's insane ... sign up for the waiver wire then you'll know
wpr (39m) : YES!!!!!!
Mucky Tundra (43m) : WE WANT THE LIST! WE WANT THE LIST!
Zero2Cool (1h) : @JJLahey · 2m Holy crap, Packers, where the heck is the list?
Zero2Cool (1h) : haha folks on Tweeter every year this time ... 'where is list Packers!!" hahaha
wpr (1h) : He played pretty good.
Zero2Cool (2h) : NAZIR STACKHOUSE HAS MADE THE 53
Zero2Cool (2h) : NOOOOO KALEN IS GONE
Zero2Cool (3h) : Kalen King and Kamal Hadden making it. me thinks
schroeder84 (3h) : @dfosterf I suspect Elgersma WILL be hard to hide. Raw, but talented
Zero2Cool (5h) : pp.com is broken, halt testing, gotta go do work things for a bit
hardrocker950 (5h) : Mecole Hardman was released, to the surprise of few
Zero2Cool (6h) : PP.com updated. Reset Password works, and now User Profile pages are a thing
Zero2Cool (25-Aug) : Soft hope plan is having fantasy football weekly on-site that i build. cannot do that with this setup.
Zero2Cool (25-Aug) : It's older technology, resource hog, cannot be upgraded/changed. That's to start.
packerfanoutwest (25-Aug) : Ok, but what is wrong with this site?
Zero2Cool (25-Aug) : check out packerpeople.com
Mucky Tundra (25-Aug) : Oh crap I missed that! I thought it was a 2026 pick
Zero2Cool (25-Aug) : It wasn't even next year pick, it's two years away. old dog food value
Mucky Tundra (25-Aug) : Yep! Everytime a team trades with Howie that team is the loser (so says the media)
Zero2Cool (25-Aug) : We are hosed.
Mucky Tundra (25-Aug) : Per Schefter, GB is sending a 6th rounder for OT Darian Kennard
Zero2Cool (24-Aug) : Finally got new site to keep folks logged in. New tech is pain sometimes
dfosterf (23-Aug) : Taylor Elgersma is going to be very hard to hide.
Mucky Tundra (23-Aug) : Matthew Golden=DAWG (so load the wagons!!) !!!!!
dfosterf (18-Aug) : We do have good depth at running back imo. Still so frustrating. Bitching about it is a futile excercise, which I plan to do anyway.
Mucky Tundra (17-Aug) : Whoops, I thought Zero was saying it was a surprise the Brewers lost and not Lloyd being hurt
Mucky Tundra (17-Aug) : Not a surprise; inevitable
Zero2Cool (17-Aug) : Brewers streak ends at 14
Zero2Cool (17-Aug) : SURPRISE
Mucky Tundra (17-Aug) : @mattschneidman Matt LaFleur on MarShawn Lloyd: “He’s gonna miss some time.”
Mucky Tundra (16-Aug) : CLIFFORD WITH THE TD WITH UNDER 2 TO GO!!!!!
Zero2Cool (16-Aug) : 90 MINUTES UNTIL FAKE KICKOFF!!
Martha Careful (16-Aug) : I think Ruven is a bot, but regardless should be stricken from the site.
Zero2Cool (14-Aug) : Packers RB Josh Jacobs ranked No. 33 in NFL 'Top 100'
dfosterf (13-Aug) : The LVN Musgrave collision- Andy Herman said Musgrave seemed to be the one most impacted injury-wise
dfosterf (13-Aug) : a lower back injury
dfosterf (13-Aug) : Doubs says he's "fine" after injury scare. Some reported it as z
Mucky Tundra (13-Aug) : With LVN that is; need to see what happens in the next practice
Mucky Tundra (13-Aug) : beast, reading about what happened, it sounded like one of those "two guys collide and are moving slow afterwards" type of deals
beast (12-Aug) : I believe Musgrave has been injured every single season since at least a Sophomore in highschool
packerfanoutwest (12-Aug) : Matt LaFleur: “Highly unlikely” Jordan Love plays more this preseason
dfosterf (12-Aug) : Doubs, Savion Williams, LVN, Musgrave all banged up to one degree or another, missing one here I forget
Zero2Cool (12-Aug) : RB Tyrion Davis-Price is signing with the Green Bay Packers.
Zero2Cool (12-Aug) : zero help, dominated. preseason
beast (12-Aug) : QB Jordan Love has surgery
beast (12-Aug) : Martha said Morgan had a lot of help, I didn't watch the OL so I can't say.
Zero2Cool (10-Aug) : Packers LT Jordan Morgan did not allow a single pressure across 23 pass-blocking snaps vs. Jets last night, per PFF
Mucky Tundra (10-Aug) : With buckeye and the reasonable couple, we're currently sitting at 10
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
8m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

15m / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

3h / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

7h / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

8h / Green Bay Packers Talk / packerfanoutwest

21h / Fantasy Sports Talk / porky88

25-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

24-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

24-Aug / Around The NFL / beast

23-Aug / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

22-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

21-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

20-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

19-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

18-Aug / Around The NFL / isaiah

Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.