wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago

Show me where I said Aaron Rodgers was a better leader than Bart Starr. You can't, but yet you beat that drum anyway. 😳

I respect that you probably encapsulate passer, leader, field general, etc all into quarterback.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Since you will not give in on 3 points I didn't want to give in on one point. [grin1]
UserPostedImage
texaspackerbacker
12 years ago

I've got something bad to say about Starr. Long time ago, I was a kid in the stands at County Stadium for a game coached by Dan Devine. Bart Starr was just down the aisle. I walked over to Bart with my program, and asked him for his autograph. He had an usher take me away.

I'll never forget it, that fuckin' guy... 😆 😆 😆

Originally Posted by: play2win 



It's got to be Devine's fault hahaha. He put EVERYBODY in a bad mood.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
play2win
12 years ago
Those were dark, dark, DARK days...

ugh!

Scott Hunter was our QB. Way better than both Starr AND Rodgers...
porky88
12 years ago
I hesitated in posting this, but it’s a different perspective on the debate. It’s a touchy subject, but I believe it’s relevant when comparing two different eras.

Bart Starr was a great quarterback for his time. I understand the nostalgia feeling many fans have with him. He’s a legend. But he played at a different time. He played at a time when the competition was not elite. I have many issues with the early days of football, and why I think several players could not play today. My main one, however, is the level of competition.

Let’s acknowledge the elephant in the room. Some of the NFL was prejudice in the 60s. We’re all products of time and that was a difficult era for race relations, but you can’t discount the effect this had on the game. Because of discrimination, the caliber of the competition was not as great as it could’ve been. In addition, a coach who didn’t have prejudices only increased the value of his team. I totally looked this up, but Vince Lombardi said, “He neither cared if a player was black or white. He viewed them all as Packer green.”

Great quote, right? I hope it’s true. His actions suggest it is. A majority of the 1966 Green Bay Packers starting defense was black. A third of the entire team was black. That was unprecedented at the time. Lombardi simply fielded the best team. Some teams wouldn’t do that. Some teams had rules of six or seven black players and that’s it. They’d cut the next guy, even if he was good enough to make the team.

Like it or not, this is an advantage for the Packers. It made them a better team. By comparisons, the Redskins didn’t have a single black player -- actually, they may have had one -- when the Packers won their first NFL championship under Lombardi. The Packers were 11-3. The Redskins 1-12-1. That’s hardly a coincidence.

Today, the NFL is on an even playing field. Could Starr, Lombardi or the 60s Packers have had success in today’s era? Maybe, if we assume weight training allowed 260-pound guards to play at 310 -- not to mention the complexities of the game today.

Regardless, they wouldn’t have won five championships. So when you elevate Starr because of five championships, just remember that among the biggest reasons Starr has five rings has nothing to do with what happened on the football field. It has to do with how Vince Lombardi approached the game off the field.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago
I hear what you are saying Porky and expected that line a while ago.

GB may or may not have won 5 championships today but it was due more to the current free agent situation than to race. If Washington didn't have any Black players or they had one that has little or no bearing on the issue. Other teams would have picked the players up and released their less qualified ones. That made other contending teams stronger not to have good players sitting on weak teams..

There were also fewer teams and fewer players on each team. But then there were less people in the US back then also. Proportionally speaking the numbers would have shown more men played in the NFL and AFL than the percentage is today. Therefore you most likely would have had a higher percent of the better skilled men playing than today.

In an 8 year span between 1960 and 1967 GB had the best regular season record only 3 times. 1961,1962 and 1967. The other 5 times there were at least 2 teams that had records that equaled GB's or was better. Different teams were strong at different times but the Giants, Lions, Browns, Eagles and even the Bears had powerful teams in the 60's.

The players back then were smaller because they did not devote themselves to training year round. The majority of the stars from that day would succeed in they played today. They would utilize today's training techniques just like everyone else does. Today's players are not some scientific invention of spliced genomes and chromosomes. They are above average men who do above average things. It is a skill they developed no reason to assume other men could not learn the same way they do.

I have said it a few times maybe if I say it in a different fashion it will sink in. I have no great nostalgia or affinity to Starr. He is not sacred to me. I simply want an equitable comparison made. Everyone knows they played in different eras and it is impossible to forecast what Bart would have done if he played today or Aaron if he played in the 60's. That said give some cushion to the scrutiny of Bart's passes and don't hold Aaron's up as if they came off Mt Olympus. It has been mentioned there were other QBs in Bart's day who had more passing yards. While this is true they did not have the running backs that Bart had. There was no incentive for him to pass when they could win by running. Same holds true today. Aaron is a better passer than his running backs are at carrying the ball. I don't mind it if he swaps from a run to a pass. If needed Bart would have thrown more and been smart about it. IIRC his interception ratio was outstanding.

Give credit to Bart for playing in a rougher, tougher league when it comes to how the defense played. Guys may have been smaller back then, there may not have been as many players "of Color" back then but the ones who played hit a heck of a lot harder than they do today. How many helmet to helmet hits caused incompletions back then? How many hits beyond 5 yards threw off the timing of a pass?

When comparing the two give credence to the play calling that Bart was able to do that Aaron is not required to do. Can Aaron make those calls? Sure but he doesn't get the opportunity that Bart did. Does that count into Bart's favor? To some degree it should.

Are we going to look solely at who was the better passer? If you wish, but then that is not asking who is the better QB. That is asking an entirely different question.

When you look at passing stats are you going to consider Bart had few games and thus he has to have fewer opportunities?
When you look at Aaron are you adding the same numbers to him for the next 5-7 years? You can't do that. He work is incomplete. he has not accomplished what Bart has accomplished.

All I ask is to look at all the factors on not solely at the golden arm when we discuss this.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
12 years ago

no.

they are different eras with different rules can't compare the two.

Passing game today vs running game then.
16 game season vs 12 and 14 game seasons

1 Championship vs 5 championships incl 2 SB.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



I confused myself when I started thinking the first Super Bowl was in '61 ... lol

1961
1962
1965
1966 Super Bowl I
1967 Super Bowl II
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
12 years ago

I confused myself when I started thinking the first Super Bowl was in '61 ... lol

1961
1962
1965
1966 Super Bowl I
1967 Super Bowl II

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



That is why I was using the word "championship" so as not to be confused with the SB.
UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
I knew what you meant, but for whatever reason, I kept thinking the Super Bowl was first in '61, meaning he only had two championships lol just a space moment.
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
12 years ago

Let's put a twist to this dilemma - if you had a choice between Starr, Favre, and Rodgers to begin a franchise with in any era of football you choose - which quarterback would you take. I'll take Rodgers and not even think twice about it.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



It depends on the quality of my OL. If I have an OL like the Packers have now, I'd take Rodgers, then Favre, then Starr. Because IMO Starr didn't have either Rodgers ability to escape OR Favre's amazing ability to heal.

If I had a top 10 OL for the era, I'd take Starr every time.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Fan Shout
beast (11h) : I believe it's technically against the CBA rules, but Jerry just calls it a simple unofficial chat... and somehow gets away with it.
beast (11h) : Jerry Jones is infamous for ̶n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ chatting with players one on one... and going around the agent.
Mucky Tundra (18h) : Oo just saw a blurb saying that Dallas negotiated directly with Parsons and not through his agent
Mucky Tundra (19h) : I assumed that both guys will get paid, just a matter of when or how we get there
Zero2Cool (20h) : McLaurin nor Micah going anywhere. They will get money
Mucky Tundra (20h) : the Synder years or do they take care of one of their own?
Mucky Tundra (20h) : Do the Commanders risk losing a top WR with an emerging QB just because he's turning 30 and potentially risk damaging the rebuild from
Mucky Tundra (20h) : Turns 30 this September, plays at a high level and Washington has some cap space I believe
Mucky Tundra (20h) : More interesting is Washington with Terry McLaurin
Mucky Tundra (20h) : I would imagine Dallas will resolve this issue with a truckload of money
Zero2Cool (22h) : Micah pulling a Myles with trade request
beast (1-Aug) : Packers should make some cheese forks
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : GRAB THE PITCHFORKS~
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : CUT HIM
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : Socieltal collapse imminent
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : The West has fallen
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : After starting off camp with 25 straight made field goals, Brandon McManus has missed one
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : But it should be stable
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : It's probably gonna be slower.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : We're gonna just full go on to the new host.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : What crap. Site issues galore
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : if PH dies, there is packerpeople com available
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : database is on new host, eventually website will follow
Mucky Tundra (30-Jul) : Zero, regarding Ewers, you are correct.
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Sadly, this might be our life for awhile. I could put it on another host, but seems it was slower, although more stable
beast (30-Jul) : How long will it be down?
beast (30-Jul) : RIP site 😭
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Site will die, I have to restart it.
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Quinn stinks. Lot of underthrows. (my guess)
beast (30-Jul) : How did Quinn Ewers effect where Golden was drafted?
dfosterf (30-Jul) : All I've experienced was late at night or early morning. I just figured you were doing something in the background
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Site sure seems to be down more than up
dfosterf (29-Jul) : 50 cent hookers? I'm moving to Green Bay. I thought it was just real estate that was more affordable there. 😂
Zero2Cool (29-Jul) : Sure seems site going down more than 50¢ hooker
Mucky Tundra (27-Jul) : Golden with two TDs in red zone drills today
Mucky Tundra (27-Jul) : @JacobMorley Shoutout to Quinn Ewers for allowing Matthew Golden to be available when Green Bay picked.
Zero2Cool (27-Jul) : The menu you expanded to log in, it's the first icon under "PackersHome" .. maybe i should add text to it
dfosterf (27-Jul) : Feelin' pfowish can't find the sun. No big deal, will drag a laptop out when the time comes
Zero2Cool (27-Jul) : if you're on mobile, open the menu and its the "sun" icon
dfosterf (27-Jul) : Can't find the toggle, lol
dfosterf (27-Jul) : I can find that the Microsoft lady rep for Titletown Tech is the philanthropy boss for the entire Microsoft corporation, but. .
Zero2Cool (27-Jul) : There's a toggle for light/dark theme. Super easy.
dfosterf (27-Jul) : The white background beta was hard to read, especially the quotes
dfosterf (27-Jul) : Hopefully the color scheme remains the same
dfosterf (27-Jul) : *Friday*
dfosterf (27-Jul) : 100 million would be 539 million as of Fridsy
dfosterf (27-Jul) : Heck, they could have taken a hundred milliion and invested in DAVE inc. last year (semi random, humor, but real)
dfosterf (27-Jul) : Beer brat and ticket is where the money comes from
dfosterf (27-Jul) : The 40th is Titletown Tech itself. This is a pet project of both Ed Policy and Mark Murphy
Zero2Cool (27-Jul) : New site coming along nicely. The editor is better than what we have here. Oh yeah!
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
14m / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

3h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

1-Aug / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

31-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

31-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

28-Jul / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

25-Jul / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

25-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

25-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / TheKanataThrilla

25-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

25-Jul / Around The NFL / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.