Zero2Cool
10 years ago

Your union conveyed to the league that due process for players is not a luxury, it’s a rightWhile the league currently has great concern for its brand, fairness and justice for our members is more important. For us, the starting point for these discussions must be the desire to agree upon a fair personal conduct policy and domestic violence rules from a standpoint of prevention and education. We will not accept a world where all players are viewed as perpetrators first and husbands, fathers, sons and brothers second.

DeMaurice Smith to executive committee and player representative wrote:



I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
10 years ago
I agree to a point, they are afforded Due Process in the court system and with regards to contracts, should be afforded an extension of that right. But the NFL and its teams certainly have the right to deactivate a player when being charged with a crime, they are being paid yet and awaiting for the legal process to take its course. Ala Peterson, Hardy and others.

As far as not making it public, hell the NFL would love for it to be that way. But in today's saturated media market and arrests being of public record, there is no way a player is going to be afforded the luxury of not having it reported. It is some of the trade off in terms of the gig.. many always note that other labor laws and such don't apply to pro athletes, well in this regard it works against them.

Now, the point if the player is found innocent or the charges are dismissed, I concur no further action should be taken away from the player. In cases like AP and Hardy, they would have served a penalty of sorts in terms of not playing.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
10 years ago
The other factor that this inactive list type arrangement for players that are charged is that it will also serve as a penalty to the clubs for signing players with a propensity to get into legal trouble. Aldon Smith for instance would have an more of an incentive to keep his nose clean and change his behavior. Less teams are going to be willing to sign a player whom may not be able to play a full year because his ability to stay out of legal trouble isn't high.

In summary.. the NFL should have the ability not to have a player in action if he is "charged" with a crime above a misdemeanor. They should be entitled to their pay however, unless the club just wants to part ways with the player, IE a depth player that so many times we see cut on the arrest.

But in the end, the commissioner should have never been nor should be the sole deciding factor in the punishment of player in the personal conduct.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
10 years ago

I think this is an excellent point. Erik Walden, for instance, his case was dismissed and still I believe he received a single or double game suspension. Why?

I still say there should be some legal precedent that states these cases (for anyone) cannot be publicized until conclusion to avoid guilty by association stigma.

Primary example for Packers fans is the type of cases like Mark Chmura's from many years ago. We will NEVER assume the male is innocent in those cases, never. Even if the court finds the defendant innocent, he is guilty by association. Granted, in Chmura's case, he's an idiot for even being in that position in the first place, but surely you get the principle being illustrated here.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



It is not just big name, big money people. If I were to give a 15 yo a ride to her home in a rain storm and she accuses me of wrong doing, I would be considered guilty by the public. Even if it is proven in court that she lied or worse yet that the case was dismissed without a trial my clients would leave. I have seen it happen with a local restaurant owner, a local attorney and in other towns with other men. They don't have to own a business to be labeled lecherous.
UserPostedImage
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
This is like the old "morals clause" that show business people had. It's not just the NFL, it's society in general - the people - that look at accused criminals that way, and the result for the employer/team/movie studio/whatever is the celebrity or player is less popular/less of a draw for selling tickets/an embarrassment for the employer. And face it, ever since O.J. and probably before that, we all know a LOT of accused criminals get off on technicalities.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
OlHoss1884
10 years ago
The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up shit creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
sschind
10 years ago

The NFL is not a democracy. Someone who has been given the privilege of playing in it has the obligation to abide by its code of behavior.

Think of NFL discipline like the Navy's Captains Mast. You may not be found guilty by the standards of the legal system, but if your actions bring disrepute on the Navy you are up sh*t creek.

The fact is, if I were a coach/GM/owner and one of my players was accused of something, I would call him in to explain himself and I don't need a jury to decide whether I want that guy on my team. Because unless it's a case of mistaken identity (like the recent Lynch case) I don't want the stink on my team's reputation, regardless of whether a slick lawyer or fat payoff got him out of trouble.

Maybe a jury decides that beating a 4 year old with a branch isn't legally child abuse but that a-hole never plays on my team again.

Originally Posted by: OlHoss1884 



So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Smokey
10 years ago
Many believe that people are innocent until proven guilty and that the courts and businesses operate in this most fair manner. It is a shock when they discover that it is really the other way around. Many a poor man has gone to prison or lost a job because they could not afford to properly defend themselves. Court appointed lawyers just want to plea bargain their cases and collect their fees.
While the NFL is a court, players are judged for their real/ or accused actions. IMO, the commissioner needs to appoint a disciplinary review board. They would look at each case and publicly recommend a course of corrective action. Members of the board would include representatives from the players union, the owners, and an independent source that owes no allegiance to the league. Final sentencing, if necessary, would still reside with the Commissioner .
No one should be judged in the media or in the lunch room at work. Even State and Federal Judges presume an accused is guilty simply because the person has been charged with a crime. Yes, most of the people that appear before them are low gutter filth, but that 1 to 2 % who are really innocent are getting bundled with rest. Allow all of the facts to be presented, reviewed, and judged by laws and/or regulations. Presided over by unbiased honest people whose sole job is learn the truth, not to increase tv ratings. [twocents]
UserPostedImage
OlHoss1884
10 years ago

So if it was a big lie that got him into trouble in the first place the guy is SOL with you just because he was accused?

The Peterson and Rice cases were one thing because the evidence was more or less available from the start of the accusations but in many cases it is not and accusations fly long before any evidence one way or the other is available.

Someone accuses your player of assault or some other crime and you cut his ass then its found out two or three weeks or more later that the entire thing was made up and you already judged the guy simply because he was accused. Nice.

Originally Posted by: sschind 



If I made it sound that way, I wasn't clear. I am saying that in the NFL, since it's a private organization, the burden of proof isn't the same, and you don't have the same right of due process.

It isn't presumption of guilt, but if you got arrested, your story better hold water.



"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits" --Albert Einstein
Zero2Cool
10 years ago
One problem with this suspend now, ask questions later deal with these cases made public so quickly is this. All a woman has to do is call the cops and claim the guy hit her and he is going to jail. Period. They sort things out later. If found innocent or case is dropped, the association of guilt is already placed on the guy. This opens him up for MORE false accusations. I think the negative trend is apparent.

As I said, this goes for anyone, not just celebrities.

A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Mucky Tundra (1m) : Tbh, I can never tell the difference in speed unless it's completely shitting the bed
Zero2Cool (36m) : Sure does feel like site is more snappy
Zero2Cool (3h) : I thought that was the Lions OL
Mucky Tundra (4h) : Travis Glover placed on IR; seasons over for him
Zero2Cool (8h) : found bad sql in database, maybe site faster now?
dfosterf (5-Aug) : I'm going to call that a good move.
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Packers sign CB Corey Ballentine
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : I'm not sure how to kill the draft order just yet so it's not so confusing.
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : *to be able
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : and because it's not a dynasty league (which makes a lot more sense to be ability to trade picks)
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Oh I know; I was just exploring and it blew my mind that you could trade picks because of the whole reordering thing
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Zero, I think I preferred my offer: your 1st for my 15th rounder
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Keep in mind, we do a draft reorder once all members locked in
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : You can have my 12th Rd for your 2nd round
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Hey i didn't know we could trade picks in fantasy
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Update: Rock has tried a cheese curd, promises it's not his last
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : watch it!! lol
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : you're right, we never did leave, the site just went down :P
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Rock claims to have never eaten a cheese curd
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : We did not leave.
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Family Night! WE ARE SO BACK!
Mucky Tundra (2-Aug) : To this day, I'm still miffed about his 4 TD game against Dallas on Thanksgiving going to waste
Martha Careful (2-Aug) : Congratulations Sterling Sharpe. He was terrific and I loved watching him play.
beast (2-Aug) : I believe it's technically against the CBA rules, but Jerry just calls it a simple unofficial chat... and somehow gets away with it.
beast (2-Aug) : Jerry Jones is infamous for ̶n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ chatting with players one on one... and going around the agent.
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Oo just saw a blurb saying that Dallas negotiated directly with Parsons and not through his agent
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : I assumed that both guys will get paid, just a matter of when or how we get there
Zero2Cool (1-Aug) : McLaurin nor Micah going anywhere. They will get money
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : the Synder years or do they take care of one of their own?
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Do the Commanders risk losing a top WR with an emerging QB just because he's turning 30 and potentially risk damaging the rebuild from
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Turns 30 this September, plays at a high level and Washington has some cap space I believe
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : More interesting is Washington with Terry McLaurin
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : I would imagine Dallas will resolve this issue with a truckload of money
Zero2Cool (1-Aug) : Micah pulling a Myles with trade request
beast (1-Aug) : Packers should make some cheese forks
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : GRAB THE PITCHFORKS~
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : CUT HIM
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : Socieltal collapse imminent
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : The West has fallen
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : After starting off camp with 25 straight made field goals, Brandon McManus has missed one
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : But it should be stable
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : It's probably gonna be slower.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : We're gonna just full go on to the new host.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : What crap. Site issues galore
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : if PH dies, there is packerpeople com available
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : database is on new host, eventually website will follow
Mucky Tundra (30-Jul) : Zero, regarding Ewers, you are correct.
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Sadly, this might be our life for awhile. I could put it on another host, but seems it was slower, although more stable
beast (30-Jul) : How long will it be down?
beast (30-Jul) : RIP site 😭
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
2h / Fantasy Sports Talk / dfosterf

11h / Around The NFL / wpr

5-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

5-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

4-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

3-Aug / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

28-Jul / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.