Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Posted 10/3/2004 9:38 PM

Polygamy laws expose our own hypocrisy 

By Jonathan Turley

Tom Green is an American polygamist. This month, he will appeal his conviction in Utah for that offense to the United States Supreme Court, in a case that could redefine the limits of marriage, privacy and religious freedom.

If the court agrees to take the case, it would be forced to confront a 126-year-old decision allowing states to criminalize polygamy that few would find credible today, even as they reject the practice. And it could be forced to address glaring contradictions created in recent decisions of constitutional law.

For polygamists, it is simply a matter of unequal treatment under the law.

Individuals have a recognized constitutional right to engage in any form of consensual sexual relationship with any number of partners. Thus, a person can live with multiple partners and even sire children from different partners so long as they do not marry. However, when that same person accepts a legal commitment for those partners "as a spouse," we jail them.

Likewise, someone such as singer Britney Spears can have multiple husbands so long as they are consecutive, not concurrent. Thus, Spears can marry and divorce men in quick succession and become the maven of tabloid covers. Yet if she marries two of the men for life, she will become the matron of a state prison.

Religion defines the issue

The difference between a polygamist and the follower of an "alternative lifestyle" is often religion. In addition to protecting privacy, the Constitution is supposed to protect the free exercise of religion unless the religious practice injures a third party or causes some public danger.

However, in its 1878 opinion in Reynolds vs. United States, the court refused to recognize polygamy as a legitimate religious practice, dismissing it in racist and anti-Mormon terms as "almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and African people." In later decisions, the court declared polygamy to be "a blot on our civilization" and compared it to human sacrifice and "a return to barbarism." Most tellingly, the court found that the practice is "contrary to the spirit of Christianity and of the civilization which Christianity has produced in the Western World."

Contrary to the court's statements, the practice of polygamy is actually one of the common threads between Christians, Jews and Muslims.

Deuteronomy contains a rule for the division of property in polygamist marriages. Old Testament figures such as Abraham, David, Jacob and Solomon were all favored by God and were all polygamists. Solomon truly put the "poly" to polygamy with 700 wives and 300 concubines. Mohammed had 10 wives, though the Koran limits multiple wives to four. Martin Luther at one time accepted polygamy as a practical necessity. Polygamy is still present among Jews in Israel, Yemen and the Mediterranean.

Indeed, studies have found polygamy present in 78% of the world's cultures, including some Native American tribes. (While most are polygynists with one man and multiple women there are polyandrists in Nepal and Tibet in which one woman has multiple male spouses.) As many as 50,000 polygamists live in the United States.

Given this history and the long religious traditions, it cannot be seriously denied that polygamy is a legitimate religious belief. Since polygamy is a criminal offense, polygamists do not seek marriage licenses. However, even living as married can send you to prison. Prosecutors have asked courts to declare a person as married under common law and then convicted them of polygamy.

The Green case

This is what happened in the case of Green, who was sentenced to five years to life in prison. In his case, the state first used the common law to classify Green and four women as constructively married even though they never sought a license. Green was then convicted of polygamy.

While the justifications have changed over the years, the most common argument today in favor of a criminal ban is that underage girls have been coerced into polygamist marriages. There are indeed such cases. However, banning polygamy is no more a solution to child abuse than banning marriage would be a solution to spousal abuse. The country has laws to punish pedophiles and there is no religious exception to those laws.

In Green's case, he was shown to have "married" a 13-year-old girl. If Green had relations with her, he is a pedophile and was properly prosecuted for a child sex crime just as a person in a monogamous marriage would be prosecuted.

The First Amendment was designed to protect the least popular and least powerful among us. When the high court struck down anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence vs. Texas, we ended decades of the use of criminal laws to persecute gays. However, this recent change was brought about in part by the greater acceptance of gay men and lesbians into society, including openly gay politicians and popular TV characters.

Such a day of social acceptance will never come for polygamists. It is unlikely that any network is going to air The Polygamist Eye for the Monogamist Guy or add a polygamist twist to Everyone Loves Raymond. No matter. The rights of polygamists should not be based on popularity, but principle.

I personally detest polygamy. Yet if we yield to our impulse and single out one hated minority, the First Amendment becomes little more than hype and we become little more than hypocrites. For my part, I would rather have a neighbor with different spouses than a country with different standards for its citizens.

I know I can educate my three sons about the importance of monogamy, but hypocrisy can leave a more lasting impression.

Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington Law School.


UserPostedImage
Formo
14 years ago
Hypocrisy? Really? I thought it was more of a legal issue, not a moral issue. Legalizing polygamy would make it a MESS when it comes to the numbers and such. Who gets what and how much.. Who's the wife? Who's the midwife.. How much legal 'rights' do they each have?

All it would do is just tie up the legal system with MORE messy divorces.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Polygamists have very LOW rates of divorce. And the paperwork would not be any more difficult: if you have multiple children, it's no more difficult to register the sixth than the first. Why would it be any different for full, legally equal wives?

But I am falling asleep right now, so I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.
UserPostedImage
Formo
14 years ago

Polygamists have very LOW rates of divorce. And the paperwork would not be any more difficult: if you have multiple children, it's no more difficult to register the sixth than the first. Why would it be any different for full, legally equal wives?

But I am falling asleep right now, so I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



The rates of divorce isn't my point.. It's when they happen, it'll tie up the legal system more so than it already is. You can't tell me that with the system isn't already booked with the divorce rates. More marriages ultimately mean more divorces (generalization, yes.. But more than likely true).
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
gbguy20
14 years ago

Polygamists have very LOW rates of divorce. And the paperwork would not be any more difficult: if you have multiple children, it's no more difficult to register the sixth than the first. Why would it be any different for full, legally equal wives?

But I am falling asleep right now, so I'll respond in more detail tomorrow.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



when one woman wants a divorce? do u give her half? do u give her a 6th? which 6th do u give her? how do u decide? what about the children? give the mom custody, visiting rights, half custody? full custody when the child has been raised used to the idea that it has 18 moms?

shit gets dicey
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
lol @ falling asleep at 9pm ... pussy.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
After a weekend of drill, during which I was up till 3:30 a.m. with my girlfriend and at drill by 7:00 a.m., you'd be tired too. 😉
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
My first reaction to this thread? NSD wants to never find enough ways to ensure more sex with more people. :)

My second reaction is the same one when the issue of "same sex marriage" comes up. That the real reason we don't have it legal in every state has very little to do with the religious argument. It has to do with insurance costs.

Namely the fact that "family plans" would be even more problematic for employers, other employees, or whoever the cost gets, pardon the pun, "spread" among.

Me, I haven't found one person dumb enough to marry me. The notion that I might want more than one is, well, a rather rhetorical question.

Angels-on-a-pin...now there's a useful question by comparison.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
It has nothing to do with insurance. The UW system, for example, gives full benefits to domestic partners, regardless of whether they're legally married or not.

I don't want to find more ways to have sex with more people. I want to be able to tell people I have more than one partner and not be marginalized. It is harder -- much harder -- to be in an open relationship these days than to be gay or lesbian. Ask anyone in such a relationship. It's the last great taboo in our culture, and it sucks.
UserPostedImage
Formo
14 years ago

It has nothing to do with insurance. The UW system, for example, gives full benefits to domestic partners, regardless of whether they're legally married or not.

I don't want to find more ways to have sex with more people. I want to be able to tell people I have more than one partner and not be marginalized. It is harder -- much harder -- to be in an open relationship these days than to be gay or lesbian. Ask anyone in such a relationship. It's the last great taboo in our culture, and it sucks.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I think it's not that taboo man. I have a pretty good friend that lives in Texas who's a polygamist. His culture and religion is very important to him (he's Gaelic), and while he has one wife, they have many other partners. Legalizing polygamy isn't even in the top 3 most important issues by his standards. But then again, his stance is it's a cultural and religious matter, not one to be governed by politics.
UserPostedImage
Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Fan Shout
beast (17-May) : Not sure why a players views reflect on GB... instead of simply on the player
Martha Careful (17-May) : I bet some of us have had 6+ mRNA jabs, a UKR flag on our walls, and still think Fauci has a thread of integrity
Zero2Cool (16-May) : From what I've read, it's all Jets , not us.
CanPackFan (16-May) : Will there ever be a time when Rodgers' whacko views will not reflect on GB? He is the past, thank god.
Zero2Cool (16-May) : Jan 4th gonna be rough with that start time lol
Zero2Cool (16-May) : Packers schedule listed. Boom.
buckeyepackfan (15-May) : Let the leaks begin. Colts @ Packers week 2, Vikings @ Packers week 4
Zero2Cool (14-May) : WR Marquez Valdes-Scantling to Bills
Zero2Cool (14-May) : Jets and Aaron Rodgers open up on Monday Night Football,
Zero2Cool (13-May) : $170 guaranteed. This might impact Jordan Love
Zero2Cool (13-May) : Lions are signing QB Jared Goff to a four-year, $212 million extension
Zero2Cool (13-May) : I know we moved on. That tidbit just makes me a touch happier.
Zero2Cool (13-May) : Sources spoke of many, many times last summer where Hackett called a play, then Rodgers changed it completely at the line
Martha Careful (10-May) : 1. this is true of all our linemen. 2. His run block is fine. 3. If all OL played like he has, we would win SB.
beast (10-May) : Meyers pass blocking is really good, his run blocking is really not.
Zero2Cool (9-May) : Packers have claimed DE Spencer Waege off of waivers from the 49ers and waived DT Rodney Mathews.
Zero2Cool (9-May) : And the OL protections seem to be good.
Zero2Cool (9-May) : I really don't know lol. I don't see him getting blown up.
Zero2Cool (9-May) : -3 buwahhhahaaha
Mucky Tundra (9-May) : 4th
Zero2Cool (9-May) : because he's 1st
Mucky Tundra (9-May) : Myers isn't even the 3rd best C on the roster atm
Martha Careful (9-May) : I am not sure I understand the Myers hate. He was consistently our third best lineman. RG and LT were worse.
beast (9-May) : Just saying I don't think moving Myers would help Myers.
beast (9-May) : Center is usually considered the easiest position physically if you can handle the snap stuff.
Mucky Tundra (8-May) : Bust it is then
Zero2Cool (8-May) : Context. Sounds like Myers won't be cross-trained. C or bust.
Mucky Tundra (8-May) : @BookOfEli_NFL Packers pass game coordinator, Jason Vrable said that Jayden Reed and Dontayvion Wicks shared a placed in Florida while train
Mucky Tundra (8-May) : For now...
Zero2Cool (8-May) : Packers go about evaluating their "best five," OL coach Luke Butkus makes on thing clear: "Josh Myers is our center."
beast (8-May) : Though I'm a bit surprised letting go of CBs, I thought we needed more not less
beast (8-May) : It was confusing with two DB Anthony Johnson anyways
Zero2Cool (8-May) : Packers actually had Ray Lewis on the phone.
Zero2Cool (8-May) : Packers wanted to draft Ray Lewis. Ravens stole him.
Martha Careful (6-May) : Happy 93rd Birthday to the Greatest Baseball Player of All-Time...Willie Mays
Zero2Cool (6-May) : Walter Stanely's son
buckeyepackfan (6-May) : and released CB Anthony Johnson and DL Deandre Johnson and waived/injured WR Thyrick Pitts (thigh-rick).
buckeyepackfan (6-May) : The Green Bay Packers have signed WR Julian Hicks, OL Lecitus Smith (luh-SEET-us) and WR Dimitri Stanley
Zero2Cool (6-May) : Petty, but it's annoying me how the NFL is making the schedule release an event.
Mucky Tundra (4-May) : @mattschneidman Matt LaFleur on how he tore his pec: “Got in a fight with the bench press. I lost.”
Zero2Cool (3-May) : Jordan Love CAN sign an extension as of today. Might tak weeks/months though
TheKanataThrilla (3-May) : Packers decline 5th year option for Stokes
Mucky Tundra (3-May) : @ProFootballTalk Jaylen Warren: Steelers' special teams coach has discussed Justin Fields returning kicks.
Zero2Cool (2-May) : Season officially ending tonight for Bucks ... sad face
Zero2Cool (2-May) : Giannis Antetokounmpo is listed as out for tonight's game.
dfosterf (2-May) : Surprisingly low initially is my guess cap wise, but gonna pay the piper after that
dfosterf (2-May) : The number on Love is going to be brutal.
Zero2Cool (2-May) : May 3rd. Extension day for Jordan Love. (soonest)
Zero2Cool (1-May) : USFL MVP QB Alex McGough moved to WR. So that's why no WR drafted!
earthquake (1-May) : Packers draft starters at safety ever few years. Collins, Clinton-Dix, Savage
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
15h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

19-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

18-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

15-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / dhazer

13-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

12-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

11-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

10-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

10-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

9-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

7-May / Packers Draft Threads / Mucky Tundra

7-May / Packers Draft Threads / Mucky Tundra

5-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / greengold

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.