flep
  • flep
  • Member Topic Starter
14 years ago
I don't know about anyone else here but I am starting to get extremely worried for the prospects of the 2011 season actually taking place.

Reading all the different posts showing the letters back and forth between the players and Roger Goodell, it seems to me both are not going to back down.

Roger Goodell is playing Devils Advocate in pitching his arguments towards the fans so trying to turn us against the players.

The players are pitching there arguments against the owners stating the owners and the NFL are offering less than the previous agreement.

I don't think I could last until 2012 without my Packers.

I love my football and fear that a season not being played would mean the end for Woodson and Driver and I would hate for their careers to end this way.

I just hope and pray that this can be resolved as quick as possible but I just cannot get optimistic about the way this is developing at the moment.
Formed Merseyside Nighthawks. British Champions 1992. Packer fan for 32 years
UserPostedImage


I feel very wrong now!!!!!!!!!
Greg C.
14 years ago
It's only March. The regular season is five and a half months away. I don't think I will start to worry until June or July. From what I hear, with the case going to court in April, we should not expect a resolution until at least May.

I think the players bad-mouthed the latest offer from the owners because they expect to do well in court. The owners suffered an early blow when they were denied their "rainy day" TV revenue stream that they were hoping to use during the lockout. With things moving in the players' direction, they feel that they have nothing to gain by accepting an offer right now. I'm hoping the judge will clarify things so that there will not be much to fight over anymore.
blank
porky88
14 years ago
There will be a regular season.

The question is whether it is a full 16-game season. We might settle for 13 or even nine instead, but there will be a season.
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
From the NFL's "Memorandum of Law " brief in response to the NFLPA's lawsuit:

Plaintiffs complaint seeks to bar the League from locking out the players, but it also seeks antitrust damages on the ground that terms and conditions of player employmentto which the plaintiffs Union had previously agreedare also violations of the Sherman Act. This is the epitome of a Catch-22: Under plaintiffs theory, the NFL is subject to antitrust liability if it ceases or refuses to continue football operations, and it is subject to antitrust liability if it does not. This heads I win, tails you lose approach is not and cannot be the law.

Indeed, if the nonstatutory labor exemption does not apply, the NFL clubs could not work together even to resolve the ongoing labor dispute without risking antitrust liability. Federal labor law and policy encourage members of a multiemployer bargaining unit to continue working together to resolve any labor dispute, both before and after collective bargaining agreements expire. Application of the exemption in these circumstances furthers this purpose; abrogating the exemption at the tactical flip of a switch would frustrate it.



Another strong argument:

Stated differently, the proper inquiry here is whether, assuming plaintiffs claims are meritorious, plaintiffs would be irreparably harmed by a period of (triply) paid leavea period in which they will not face a risk of career-ending injury (Pls. Mem. 11 1) or any wear and tear (e.g., Condon Decl. 12)? To ask that question is to answer it.

Plaintiffs contention that the lockout will deprive them of contracted for salaries or bonuses (Pls. Mem. 12 2) does not alter the inquiry. Any delay in the payment of salary or bonuses is obviously compensable in monetary damages. The temporary loss of income, ultimately to be recovered, does not usually constitute irreparable injury. Sampson v. Murray, 415 U.S. 61, 90 (1974). Similarly, the fact that the jury found that some of the McNeil plaintiffs had failed to prove monetary damages (Pls. Mem. 15 & n.3) does not demonstrate the absence of an adequate remedy at law; it is simply evidence of a failure of proof by those individual plaintiffs.

Finally, plaintiffs assertion that they face immediate irreparable harm in not being able to practice with or work out with their teammates lacks merit when one considers that (i) it is the offseason; the start of training camp is months away (Ruocco Decl. 10); (ii) plaintiffs Mankins and Jackson intentionally skipped the entirety of their respective club offseason training programs last year (id. 12); (iii) many players choose to work out on their own in the offseason (id. 13); and (iv) many players, including many rookies, historically have held out from training camps and other organized team activities (id. 14). Indeed, many players have already made arrangements to work out together under the Unions supervision. (Id. 13 & Tab 2.)



The brief makes for interesting reading. I highly recommend slogging through its 57 pages. In my opinion, it is a pretty devastating analysis of applicable statute and case law. Before I read it, I thought the NFLPA might have a decent chance of prevailing, but after reading the background to the case, it would appear that the NFL has established pretty clearly that not only should the court rule against the NFLPA, it must, by the plain language of the statute and prior decisions of the Supreme Court (among others), dismiss the case outright.
UserPostedImage
Greg C.
14 years ago
Interesting stuff, Nonstop. The players seem pretty confident, though, so maybe there are some things that are not being addressed in these quotes you gave us. We'll see. I'm not paying a lot of attention to it yet.
blank
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
If I were to quote all the interesting stuff from this brief, I would have to quote almost every page.

Here is another (I think) devastating argument made by the league.

The last time that a CBA between the NFLPA and the NFLMC expired was in 1987. Over the six years that followed, the relationship between the NFL and the NFL clubs, on the one hand, and the NFLPA and NFL players, on the other, included not only collective bargaining, but also (1) antitrust litigation brought by the NFLPA (Powell v. NFL, No. 87-917); (2) a purported disclaimer by the NFLPA of its role as the players collective bargaining representative; (3) more antitrust litigation directed and financed by the NFLPA (e.g., McNeil v. NFL, No. 90-476; Jackson v. NFL, No. 92-876; White v. NFL, No. 92-906); (4) settlement of the antitrust litigation on terms negotiated by the NFLPAs lawyers and executive director; (5) resurrection of the NFLPAs status as a union; and then (6) importation of the litigation settlement into a new CBA.

The NFLPA and plaintiffs seek to repeat that cycle here.

In 1989, the Eighth Circuit held in Powell that the nonstatutory labor exemption barred antitrust claims brought by the Union and its members against the League. The NFLPA responded by purporting to disclaim interest in collective bargaining, in the hope that the purported absence of a union would permit its members to continue its antitrust challenge to the terms and conditions of their employment.

In support of that strategy, the Union repeatedly and unambiguously represented to the court that its disclaimer was permanent and irreversible, and not a bargaining tactic:

[T]he NFLPAs abandonment of collective bargaining rights was permanent and irreversible, and not designed to put pressure on the NFL to achieve a new collective bargaining agreement. Aff. of Jeffrey L. Kessler, McNeil v. NFL, No. 4-90-476, at 2 (Nov. 2, 1990) (emphasis in original) (Ex. A).

[T]he NFLPA enacted by-laws preventing it from ever engaging in collective bargaining with the NFL. Pls. Part. SJ Mem. at 3, McNeil v. NFL (Aug. 1, 1990) (emphasis added) (Ex. 😎.

[A]s far as ever being a labor organization again, that is a permanent status. We have no intentions, in the future or in my lifetime, to ever return to be a labor organization again. Dep. Testimony of Gene Upshaw, Executive Director of the NFLPA, in McNeil v. NFL, at 234 (Oct. 3, 1990) (Ex. C).



Despite these sworn representations of permanent, irreversible, and non-tactical disclaimer, the NFLPA negotiated a collective bargaining agreement less than three years later. (Berthelsen Decl. 6 (testifying to direct participation of NFLPA general counsel in settlement discussions).)

Statements of NFLPA representatives both before and after March 11, 2011, examples of which are excerpted below, confirm that its current disclaimer is a tactical ploy in support of precisely the same strategy:

On September 29, 2010, Kevin Mawae, the president of the NFLPA, stated: [T]he idea of decertification, the tactic and the strategy worked back in 1989... . [T]he whole purpose [of disclaimer] is to have that ace in our sleeve . And at the end of the day, guys understand the strategy, its been a part of the union strategy since Ive been in the league ... . (Ex. D at 10-11 (emphases added).)

On November 10, 2010, DeMeco Ryans, the Houston Texans NFLPA player representative said: I think [disclaimer is] a good decision and a good strategy on our part as a union. (Ex. E at 1 (emphasis added).)

On March 2, 2011, Derrick Mason, the Baltimore Ravens NFLPA player representative, said about the consequences of disclaimer: Still we stand behind DeMaurice [Smith, Executive Director of the Union] and we stand behind the players in the NFL. So are we a union? Per se, no.But were still going to act as if we are one. Were going to still talk amongst each other and were going to still try to as a whole get a deal done. (Ex. F at 6 (emphases added).)

On March 11, 2011, after the NFLPA purported to decertify, Vonnie Holliday, the NFLPA representative for the Washington Redskins, was asked, what do you want? He replied, We want a fair CBA. Thats it. (Ex. G at 2 (emphasis added).)

On March 12, 2011, after the NFLPA purported to decertify, Jeff Saturday, the Vice-President of the NFLPA, stated in a radio interview: From the players perspective if we are going to negotiate this out and be locked out with a CBA expiration, then it would be much better to be negotiating while were still playing football. [T]hat was the reason that we decertified. We decertified so that we could fight them from locking us out and go back to work. And we feel like we can still negotiate this anytime you want. (Ex. H at 11-12 (emphases added).)

On March 18, 2011, plaintiff Mike Vrabel, a member of the NFLPA Executive Committee, was interviewed by ESPNalong with four other members of the Executive Committee, including plaintiff Drew Breesand made clear that, notwithstanding its purported disclaimer, the NFLPA still wants to negotiate terms and conditions of employment on behalf of the players: We are willing to negotiate. ... But our executive committee needs to negotiate with ... their executive committee. People that are willing and can agree to a deal. (Ex. I at 1 (emphases added).)



The NFLPA Guide to the Lockout, distributed by the Union to its player-members weeks ago, well in advance of both the Unions purported disclaimer and the CBAs expiration, explains this strategy explicitly: The NFLPA ... would fund litigation with individual players, or classes of players, as named plaintiffs, just as we did in theMcNeil and White cases. We would immediately fund a lawsuit which would seek an injunction and claim treble damages on behalf of the players. (Ex. J at 45 (emphasis added).)

This is precisely what has happened.

In light of the mountain of evidence demonstrating that the NFLPA had long been planning a tactical disclaimer, not one that is unequivocal and in good faith, the NFL filed a charge with the NLRB on February 14, 2011, asserting that the NFLPA had violated its statutory obligation imposed by the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) to bargain in good faith. (Ex. K.) The NFL has amended the charge to assert that the Unions purported disclaimer is invalid because it violates the NLRA. (Ex. L.) Proceedings before the Board are ongoing.



Of course, the League's underlying argument is that the players cannot, by definition, collectively bargain unless they are a union, and that therefore, if they are still posturing as though they wish to bargain, they are, by definition, still a union and thus the decertification is a sham. I believe that this argument will hold up.

Addressing the NFLPA's contention that the League waived its right to declare the decertification a sham:

Plaintiffs argue that Article LVII, Section 3(b) of the CBA (and the SSA counterpart, Article XVIII, Section 5(b)) waives the NFLs ability to oppose their motion. That Section reads:

[A]fter the expiration of the express term of this Agreement, in the event that at that time or any time thereafter a majority of players indicate that they wish to end the collective bargaining status of the NFLPA on or after expiration of this Agreement, the NFL ... waive[s] any rights 🇮🇹 may have to assert any antitrust labor exemption defense based upon any claim that the termination by the NFLPA of its status as a collective bargaining representative is or would be a sham, pretext, ineffective, requires additional steps, or has not in fact occurred.


(emphases added) (Ex. O.)

By its own plain and unambiguous terms, the provision purports to apply only when the players decision to end the collective bargaining status of the NFLPA is made at or any time [ ]after the express term of the CBA. But here, it is undisputed that the Unions (purported) disclaimer occurred before the CBA expired; the premise of plaintiffs claim is that the NFLPAs collective bargaining status had already ended at expiration. (Compl. 24, 54-61; Pls. Mem. 9 1-2.) Accordingly, the predicate for Section 3(b) is not met; the provision cannot apply.

Plaintiffs know this; their Union told its membership that it needed to disclaim interest before expiration of the CBA to avoid application of the companion Section 3(a)an obvious quid pro quo to the waiver provision of Section 3(b)which provides that if the NFLPA is in existence as a union [following expiration of the CBA], the Parties agree that no ... player represented by the NFLPA shall be able to commence an action, or assert a claim under the antirust laws for at least six months.

As the Union told its members, it was not willing to wait six months to initiate its sponsored lawsuit. Having made the tactical election to avoid the six-month waiting period imposed by Section 3(a), neither the Union nor the plaintiffs can attempt to invoke the companion waiver provision in Section 3(b).

Even if the predicate for Section 3(b) were met, the provision itself is void as against the established public policy, recognized by the Supreme Courts 1996 decision in Brown, that the labor laws, not the antitrust laws, apply to the collective bargaining process. The waiver provisionwhich purports to condone deliberate misrepresentation by the NFLPA and to let an antitrust suit proceed even when the disclaimer is invalidcannot be enforced without contravening public policy. The waiver provision is therefore void. See, e.g., Resolution Trust Corp. v. Home Sav. of Am., 946 F.2d 93, 97 (8th Cir. 1991); Restatement (Second) of Contracts 178(1) (1981); id. 196 cmt. a, illus. 1.

In any event, Section 3(b) has no application to the NFLs unfair labor practice charge against the Union at the NLRB, which has to be resolved first. (Any effort by the Union to limit the NFLs rights before the Board would be ineffective. See, e.g., Conoco, Inc., 287 NLRB 548, 559 (1987) (waiver of right to seek redress with Board or courts is per se illegal and unenforceable as contrary to public policy).)

And even if the waiver did preclude the NFL from arguing to the Court the obviousthat the Unions disclaimer is a shamit would not limit the NFLs ability to argue that the nonstatutory labor exemption continues to apply because the parties are not at a point sufficiently distant in time and in circumstances such that the exemption would no longer be applicable. Brown, 518 U.S. at 250.


UserPostedImage
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
Hmm, so there might be an NFL Lockout during the season?

I wonder if the NFL wins this, if the former NFLPA backs down and accepts a deal sooner rather than later?
UserPostedImage
Greg C.
14 years ago

Hmm, so there might be an NFL Lockout during the season?

I wonder if the NFL wins this, if the former NFLPA backs down and accepts a deal sooner rather than later?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Maybe. I'm hoping that one side or the other wins a clear victory in court, forcing the other side to strike a deal. But then, I suppose with all of the money involved, there could be endless appeals.
blank
Dexter_Sinister
14 years ago
The only group both sides will listen to is the fans taking their money elsewhere.

That is where the true power lies. Too bad the fans are not going to figure that one out.

If the Fans stop paying attention, watching, commenting or buying anything that is associated with the NFL, they will take notice immediately.

They can't fight over the money if we take it away from them.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Cheesey
14 years ago
I think there will be a season. But it may end up being shortened.
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
dfosterf (3h) : I'm going to call that a good move.
Zero2Cool (17h) : Packers sign CB Corey Ballentine
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : I'm not sure how to kill the draft order just yet so it's not so confusing.
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : *to be able
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : and because it's not a dynasty league (which makes a lot more sense to be ability to trade picks)
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Oh I know; I was just exploring and it blew my mind that you could trade picks because of the whole reordering thing
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Zero, I think I preferred my offer: your 1st for my 15th rounder
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : Keep in mind, we do a draft reorder once all members locked in
Zero2Cool (4-Aug) : You can have my 12th Rd for your 2nd round
Mucky Tundra (4-Aug) : Hey i didn't know we could trade picks in fantasy
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Update: Rock has tried a cheese curd, promises it's not his last
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : watch it!! lol
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : you're right, we never did leave, the site just went down :P
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Rock claims to have never eaten a cheese curd
Zero2Cool (3-Aug) : We did not leave.
Mucky Tundra (3-Aug) : Family Night! WE ARE SO BACK!
Mucky Tundra (2-Aug) : To this day, I'm still miffed about his 4 TD game against Dallas on Thanksgiving going to waste
Martha Careful (2-Aug) : Congratulations Sterling Sharpe. He was terrific and I loved watching him play.
beast (2-Aug) : I believe it's technically against the CBA rules, but Jerry just calls it a simple unofficial chat... and somehow gets away with it.
beast (2-Aug) : Jerry Jones is infamous for ̶n̶e̶g̶o̶t̶i̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ chatting with players one on one... and going around the agent.
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Oo just saw a blurb saying that Dallas negotiated directly with Parsons and not through his agent
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : I assumed that both guys will get paid, just a matter of when or how we get there
Zero2Cool (1-Aug) : McLaurin nor Micah going anywhere. They will get money
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : the Synder years or do they take care of one of their own?
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Do the Commanders risk losing a top WR with an emerging QB just because he's turning 30 and potentially risk damaging the rebuild from
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : Turns 30 this September, plays at a high level and Washington has some cap space I believe
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : More interesting is Washington with Terry McLaurin
Mucky Tundra (1-Aug) : I would imagine Dallas will resolve this issue with a truckload of money
Zero2Cool (1-Aug) : Micah pulling a Myles with trade request
beast (1-Aug) : Packers should make some cheese forks
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : GRAB THE PITCHFORKS~
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : CUT HIM
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : Socieltal collapse imminent
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : The West has fallen
Mucky Tundra (31-Jul) : After starting off camp with 25 straight made field goals, Brandon McManus has missed one
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : But it should be stable
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : It's probably gonna be slower.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : We're gonna just full go on to the new host.
Zero2Cool (31-Jul) : What crap. Site issues galore
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : if PH dies, there is packerpeople com available
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : database is on new host, eventually website will follow
Mucky Tundra (30-Jul) : Zero, regarding Ewers, you are correct.
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Sadly, this might be our life for awhile. I could put it on another host, but seems it was slower, although more stable
beast (30-Jul) : How long will it be down?
beast (30-Jul) : RIP site 😭
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Site will die, I have to restart it.
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Quinn stinks. Lot of underthrows. (my guess)
beast (30-Jul) : How did Quinn Ewers effect where Golden was drafted?
dfosterf (30-Jul) : All I've experienced was late at night or early morning. I just figured you were doing something in the background
Zero2Cool (30-Jul) : Site sure seems to be down more than up
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2025 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 7 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Thursday, Sep 11 @ 7:15 PM
COMMANDERS
Sunday, Sep 21 @ 12:00 PM
Browns
Sunday, Sep 28 @ 7:20 PM
Cowboys
Sunday, Oct 12 @ 3:25 PM
BENGALS
Sunday, Oct 19 @ 3:25 PM
Cardinals
Sunday, Oct 26 @ 7:20 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 2 @ 12:00 PM
PANTHERS
Monday, Nov 10 @ 7:15 PM
EAGLES
Sunday, Nov 16 @ 12:00 PM
Giants
Sunday, Nov 23 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Thursday, Nov 27 @ 12:00 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 7 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Dec 14 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Friday, Dec 19 @ 11:00 PM
Bears
Friday, Dec 26 @ 11:00 PM
RAVENS
Saturday, Jan 3 @ 11:00 PM
Vikings
Recent Topics
58m / Green Bay Packers Talk / dfosterf

1h / Fantasy Sports Talk / packerfanoutwest

2h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

16h / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

3-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

3-Aug / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Zero2Cool

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

2-Aug / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

28-Jul / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

28-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

27-Jul / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

25-Jul / Around The NFL / Mucky Tundra

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.