beast
7 years ago
You have to make up examples and distract from the issue because the Elliott play in question doesn't fit your narrative.

Everyone else can see the Refs did NOT screw the Packers on that play, as they followed the rule book on that play.

As previously shown the non-reply forward progress rule clearly does not apply in this case as this is a ball spot.
UserPostedImage
nerdmann
7 years ago
He extended the ball, then HE PULLED IT BACK, then he was down.

Zeke knew that if he kept it extended, it would be knocked out of his hand. So he had to PULL IT BACK. The pile didn't push his arm back, he did.

The main thing is, this team DID NOT GIVE UP. They still fought back and found a way to win. That was a GREAT play fake by Dak to score. But our QB is pretty good too.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago

You say the spot "can always be challenged." Ignoring those challenges expressly disallowed by rule, this is simply not true. To prove this argument false, one example has to be provided.

You have one example, here's another:

3rd and 1 at the 5. RB gets stood up at 5, the whistle blows. The RB, with legs churning, at the very instant the D relax their grip, runs forward past 1st down. The coach throws challenge flag and he has video evidence to prove that his RB’s most advanced progress was in EZ.

Anyone, tell me what the refs will do? If you conclude they'll proceed with the challenge; then tell me what video evidence they can look at under the hood that can change or confirm the call on the field.

Your so close to the forest you cant see the trees. The purpose of "replay" is to search for video evidence that might cause the change of a ruling on the field. If the video evidence can do nothing to affect the decision on the field: the challenge will not be allowed, the coach wont lose a TO, they'll hand the flag back to him, saying that we blew whistle on Forward progress at 5, play stopped, this was a judgement decisions that cant be reviewed. This happens a few dozen times per year.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



You don't provide enough information. You say the RB get stood up at the 5, but you don't mention where the ball is. Where the RB is doesn't matter.

The play before the Zeke run was also a forward progress call. The officials spotted the ball for a first down based on where they thought the ball was when the receiver was hit stopping his forward progress. McCarthy challenged the spot of the ball. Under the replay the officials saw that the ball was on the receivers left side when he was contacted by the defense making the ball short of the Line to Gain. The Zeke play is the exact same situation, officials spotted the ball short based on where they believed the ball was when Zeke's forward progress stopped. Under Replay this time they saw that Zeke had reached further.

They got both the challenges correct.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Zero2Cool
7 years ago
I need Cliff notes please. I want to jump in and rules you all.
UserPostedImage
7 years ago
The spot can be reviewed, but I think they got the call wrong because it wasn't a GL situation so crossing the plane doesn't matter. What matters is where the ball was when the refs determined the runner's forward momentum was stopped by defenders. Since you can't tell on the replay when the whistle blew, you can't overturn the call on the field.

It's entirely possible that the refs reviewed it like a GL situation by mistake.
Cheesey
7 years ago
Let's face it....Jerry Jones paid off the refs to make calls like that! I'm surprised the refs didn't call it a touchdown, that he R-E-A-C-Hed close enough to the goal line from there!😝 😂 🤣
UserPostedImage
PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago

The spot can be reviewed, but I think they got the call wrong because it wasn't a GL situation so crossing the plane doesn't matter. What matters is where the ball was when the refs determined the runner's forward momentum was stopped by defenders. Since you can't tell on the replay when the whistle blew, you can't overturn the call on the field.

It's entirely possible that the refs reviewed it like a GL situation by mistake.

Originally Posted by: TedThompsonsShades 



An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends;

The whistle just stops the play/clock.

The ball gets spotted at that furthest point where the runners momentum advanced the ball to. I can see the argument that Zeke pulled the ball back himself so that was his own momentum. But since he was being contracted by defenders officials are not going to make a determination of what backwards movement is caused by being pushed and which is caused by him pulling the ball back to tuck it away.

Where this would become tricky is say Zeke reached out with the ball like he did (19 yard line) and pulled it back the same then got pushed back to say the 21, regained his feet and moved forward again back to the 20. In that case the ball would be spotted at the 20. The ball always goes to the most forward spot even if Zeke would have been pushed back 10 yards before the whistle blew.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended:

(b) when a runner is held or otherwise restrained so that his forward progress ends;

The whistle just stops the play/clock.

The ball gets spotted at that furthest point where the runners momentum advanced the ball to. I can see the argument that Zeke pulled the ball back himself so that was his own momentum. But since he was being contracted by defenders officials are not going to make a determination of what backwards movement is caused by being pushed and which is caused by him pulling the ball back to tuck it away.

Where this would become tricky is say Zeke reached out with the ball like he did (19 yard line) and pulled it back the same then got pushed back to say the 21, regained his feet and moved forward again back to the 20. In that case the ball would be spotted at the 20. The ball always goes to the most forward spot even if Zeke would have been pushed back 10 yards before the whistle blew.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



It seems you’re trying to decide what happened and trying to do justice to that. But that is not how review works by rule.

Rule 15 Art. 3 says, “A decision will be reversed only when there is clear and obvious visual evidence available that warrants the change.”

The review analysis must come from the perspective that the play stands UNLESS “clear and obvious visual evidence” exists to reverse.

“Forward progress” is a term of art with a specific definition and it absolutely does not necessarily mean the most forward field position a player achieved on a play. Forward progress is the point on the field Elliot achieved under his own momentum before an opponent pushed or carried him backward. [Sec. 13 Art 1. "The Forward Progress of a runner or airborne receiver is the point at which his advance toward his opponent’s goal ends and is the spot at which the ball is declared dead by rule, irrespective of the runner or receiver being pushed or carried backward by an opponent."]

If refs do as you say [“not going to make a determination of what backwards movement is caused by being pushed and which is caused by him pulling the ball back to tuck it away”], the play must stand as called. To assert Elliot’s FP was the 19 and NOT the 20 as called on the field, the ref must possess clear and obvious visual evidence that expressly asserts Elliot was pushed or carried backward from the 19.

That VISUAL evidence doesn’t exist.
PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago

If refs do as you say [“not going to make a determination of what backwards movement is caused by being pushed and which is caused by him pulling the ball back to tuck it away”], the play must stand as called. To assert Elliot’s FP was the 19 and NOT the 20 as called on the field, the ref must possess clear and obvious visual evidence that expressly asserts Elliot was pushed or carried backward from the 19.

That VISUAL evidence doesn’t exist.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



You have it all mixed up. The ruling on the field was the ball carriers forward progress was stopped and the furthest point of the ball forward only made it to the 20. The challenge was whether the ball made it further which there was clear evidence of.





The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Barfarn
  • Barfarn
  • Senior Member Topic Starter
7 years ago

You have it all mixed up. The ruling on the field was the ball carriers forward progress was stopped and the furthest point of the ball forward only made it to the 20. The challenge was whether the ball made it further which there was clear evidence of.

Originally Posted by: PackFanWithTwins 



The ruling on field was that Elliot's own momentum had him stopped at the 20 before being pushed or carried backward [IE 20="forward progress"]. To re-spot at the 19/overturn, "clear and obvious visual evidence" is required that demonstrates he got to the 19 on his own momentum [Agree that exists] AND that he was pushed or carried back by GB [Which does not exist].
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