wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
5 years ago
I have been expecting some fallout like this but not to this degree nor this quickly.

Outside the Lines 

It's a pretty long article and I have not finished it. From what I have read I think OTL is 100% accurate.

From the NFL to rec leagues, football is facing a stark, new threat: an evaporating insurance market that is fundamentally altering the economics of the sport, squeezing and even killing off programs faced with higher costs and a scarcity of available coverage, an Outside the Lines investigation has found.

The NFL no longer has general liability insurance covering head trauma, according to multiple sources; just one carrier is willing to provide workers' compensation coverage for NFL teams. Before concussion litigation roiled the NFL beginning in 2011, at least a dozen carriers occupied the insurance market for pro football, according to industry experts.

The insurance choices for football helmet manufacturers are equally slim; one helmet company executive said he was aware of only one. Pop Warner Little Scholars, which oversees 225,000 youth players, was forced to switch insurers after its longtime carrier, a subsidiary of the insurance giant AIG, refused to provide coverage without an exclusion for any neurological injury.

"People say football will never go away, but if we can't get insurance, it will," Jon Butler, Pop Warner's executive director, lamented to colleagues after discovering that just one carrier was willing to cover the organization for head trauma, according to a person who was present.

Dr. Julian Bailes, Pop Warner's medical director and a member of the NFL's Head, Neck and Spine Committee, told Outside the Lines "insurance coverage is arguably the biggest threat to the sport."



In fact, pressure from litigation has already led to numerous improvements in player safety at all levels. The NFL has spent tens of millions of dollars on concussion research, sponsored a nationwide program called Heads Up to promote player safety and enacted dozens of rule changes designed to reduce head injuries. One of those rules for this season, an effort to curb targeting, generated intense preseason scrutiny and discussion among players, fans and coaches, even as commissioner Roger Goodell said, "Our focus is on how to take the head out of the game and make sure we're using the helmet as protection, and it's not being used as a weapon."



As I read this I kept thinking about what I thought was an incredibly stupid comment my driver's ed teacher told us back in the 70's. He said as cars add more and more safety equipment people are feeling more and more secure. They are relaxing to a larger degree. They are taking more chances. "IF EVER CAR HAD A DAGGER IN THE STEERING WHEEL THAT WAS POINTED AT THE DRIVER THERE WOULD BE A LOT FEWER ACCIDENTS BECAUSE DRIVERS WOULD BE GOING SLOWER. THEY WOULD BE MORE COURTEOUS TO OTHERS. THEY WOULD TAKE FEWER CHANCES." In a way the same can be said for football. If they had the old leather helmets there would be fewer helmet to helmet hits. Almost no one would try to spear another player. There is no way in the world the NFL would go back to that kind of a helmet but players get a sense of invulnerability with the newer, "safer" helmets.
UserPostedImage
KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
5 years ago
WPR, great post...a real problem. Waivers go only so far in protecting coach. The point regarding development beyond the leather helmet is ironic and compelling.

If leagues can't get coverage, then coaches can't get it. And only and idiot would coach without either private or school based insurance coverage...then we get the worst coaches and likely even worse outcomes.

I am frankly surprised hockey can get coverage.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
beast
5 years ago

Great points wpr! Needing or lacking of insurance coverage is starting a number of different things, as insurance companies are being more cautious as America has become more sue happy if anything goes wrong, as sometimes users are winning lawsuits even if it's users own fault.

I was sent an email that was the 10 stupidest lawsuits of the year, that actually won in court (some of which were overturned upon appeal)... the one that has really stuck in my mind was a women won a lawsuit against her car maker because, while on the highway she put her cruise control on, and took her hands and feet off of the controls expecting to stay in the lane while she did something else... she of course had a bad crash, and sued based on, nowhere in the owner's manual does it say you have to keep your hands on the wheel during cruise control... and somehow won the first court case.... which of course the company was refusing to pay as they appealed, but they said all the new owners manual would be updated to say keep your hands on the wheel.


But back to things we are losing for lack of insurance coverage, I remember I used to LOVE going to my neighborhood pool... it had two diving boards, the high one was great. I'm guessing the high one was 15 foot high.... my highschool had one too. Now I can't even find a place with a low diving board... when I asked around to find out why... they said lawsuits drove the insurance too high so most pools wouldn't put them in and even if they did, most diving board makers were now building them with the least amount of spring possible to avoid lawsuits and therefore they were less fun.

UserPostedImage
yooperfan
5 years ago
Money grubbing insurance companies and lawyers will obliterate many of the things that us free spirited Americans have enjoyed and taken for granted for most of our lives.
My time on this earth is short, my grandchildren's lives are just beginning.
They probably won't know sports as we know them today.
I wonder if my grandchildren will be willing to pay a hundred bucks a seat to watch the Green Bay Packers play flag football.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
5 years ago

Money grubbing insurance companies and lawyers will obliterate many of the things that us free spirited Americans have enjoyed and taken for granted for most of our lives.
My time on this earth is short, my grandchildren's lives are just beginning.
They probably won't know sports as we know them today.
I wonder if my grandchildren will be willing to pay a hundred bucks a seat to watch the Green Bay Packers play flag football.

Originally Posted by: yooperfan 



yoop, "money grubbing insurance companies" really? Here'a list of Forbes most profitable companies in 2016. I am sorry I couldn't find 2017 list. It's too early for 2018.

1. Apple
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 3
2016 Profits: $45.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 21%
2. J.P. Morgan Chase
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 21
2016 Profits: $24.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
3. Berkshire Hathaway
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 2
2016 Profits: $24.1 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 11%
4. Wells Fargo
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 25
2016 Profits: $21.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
5. Alphabet (Google)
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 27
2016 Profits: $19.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 22%
6. Bank of America
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 26
2016 Profits: $17.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 19%
7. Microsoft
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 28
2016 Profits: $16.8 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 20%
8. Johnson & Johnson
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 35
2016 Profits: $16.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
9. Citigroup
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 30
2016 Profits: $14.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 18%
10. Altria Group
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 148
2016 Profits: $14.2 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 74%

Only one of them is into insurance to any significance. That is Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway. While they own a few insurance companies they are into a lot of other things as well.

All businesses need to make a profit. Insurance is no different than any other business. They look at the exposure/cost and come up with prices based on it. There are 50 Departments of Insurance. There are over 1000 insurance companies. There is no way possible to over charge the consumer in this day and age. Government regulation and competition won't allow it. In the personal auto line alone I have people call me every single day and complain that the price went up $5 dollars, $10 or what ever. I showed a guy who was complaining that the price actually decreased the last 3 times and his insurance was actually 25% less than it was 2 years ago. If you owned stock in a company you would demand they do their best to provide you with the greatest returns possible. Just because you personally have chosen not to invest don't make it wrong. (For the record I don't have any stock either.)

As for your lawyer comment, in the past I pointed the finger at them but you know what, it's not their fault. As beast pointed out juries are awarding settlements right and left. Well beyond what insurance companies ever dreamed possible.

As an example of the weak jury issue, I sat on a DWI case. The dude was weaving all over the road. He said he had a beer 3-4 hours earlier. His wife said they split the beer. His buddy said the three of them split the beer 3-4 hours earlier. And yet after all that time he still blew a .08 90 minutes after being arrested. .08 on 1 beer! I don't think it's possible for an 80 pound person to register that high on 1 beer at any time. Any how in the jury room a guy roughly 30 years old said he wasn't going to convict him. After all some day it might be him and he hopes he has someone watching his back. 2 other guys nodded in agreement.

People award huge judgments because they hope they will get a windfall some day. That's why people buy lottery tickets. They want to win even thought hey know it's not very likely.

Insurance and even trial lawyers are only reflecting the views of society. We are about the same age. Do you remember these issues back in the late 60's and early 70's? No way. Society has changed.
UserPostedImage
KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
5 years ago
WPR, good perspectives, as usual.

Tort reforms are necessary as we are all paying the cost for frivolous law-suits.

Insurance Companies aren't the bad guys here (I don't work for, sell, or own any insurance stocks.) To stay in business they HAVE to plan on making a profit predicated on actuarial risk, and with potential litigation, some of it frivolous, the risk/return ratio simply does not justify writing the policies.

If insurance companies can't make money they won't provide the service. It is important to keep in mind this is the same reality with any other service or product...including healthcare)
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
gbguy20
5 years ago
Can we blame the medical industry then for driving up the prices in this country so absurdly astronomically ridiculously high that even the insurance can no longer afford to pay the medical bills either?
yooperfan
5 years ago

yoop, "money grubbing insurance companies" really? Here'a list of Forbes most profitable companies in 2016. I am sorry I couldn't find 2017 list. It's too early for 2018.

1. Apple
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 3
2016 Profits: $45.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 21%
2. J.P. Morgan Chase
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 21
2016 Profits: $24.7 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
3. Berkshire Hathaway
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 2
2016 Profits: $24.1 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 11%
4. Wells Fargo
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 25
2016 Profits: $21.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
5. Alphabet (Google)
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 27
2016 Profits: $19.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 22%
6. Bank of America
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 26
2016 Profits: $17.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 19%
7. Microsoft
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 28
2016 Profits: $16.8 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 20%
8. Johnson & Johnson
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 35
2016 Profits: $16.5 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 23%
9. Citigroup
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 30
2016 Profits: $14.9 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 18%
10. Altria Group
Fortune 500 Rank: No. 148
2016 Profits: $14.2 billion
% of Revenues (Margin): 74%

Only one of them is into insurance to any significance. That is Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway. While they own a few insurance companies they are into a lot of other things as well.

All businesses need to make a profit. Insurance is no different than any other business. They look at the exposure/cost and come up with prices based on it. There are 50 Departments of Insurance. There are over 1000 insurance companies. There is no way possible to over charge the consumer in this day and age. Government regulation and competition won't allow it. In the personal auto line alone I have people call me every single day and complain that the price went up $5 dollars, $10 or what ever. I showed a guy who was complaining that the price actually decreased the last 3 times and his insurance was actually 25% less than it was 2 years ago. If you owned stock in a company you would demand they do their best to provide you with the greatest returns possible. Just because you personally have chosen not to invest don't make it wrong. (For the record I don't have any stock either.)

As for your lawyer comment, in the past I pointed the finger at them but you know what, it's not their fault. As beast pointed out juries are awarding settlements right and left. Well beyond what insurance companies ever dreamed possible.

As an example of the weak jury issue, I sat on a DWI case. The dude was weaving all over the road. He said he had a beer 3-4 hours earlier. His wife said they split the beer. His buddy said the three of them split the beer 3-4 hours earlier. And yet after all that time he still blew a .08 90 minutes after being arrested. .08 on 1 beer! I don't think it's possible for an 80 pound person to register that high on 1 beer at any time. Any how in the jury room a guy roughly 30 years old said he wasn't going to convict him. After all some day it might be him and he hopes he has someone watching his back. 2 other guys nodded in agreement.

People award huge judgments because they hope they will get a windfall some day. That's why people buy lottery tickets. They want to win even thought hey know it's not very likely.

Insurance and even trial lawyers are only reflecting the views of society. We are about the same age. Do you remember these issues back in the late 60's and early 70's? No way. Society has changed.

Originally Posted by: wpr 


WPR, as I hit the post button it occurred to me that my post might irritate you and that wasn't my intent.
However, historically big insurance companies have been big money makers. Perhaps in this day and age not so much as during the 60's and 70's.
Insurance companies back in those days had such deep pockets that they had no problems financing other big companies big projects like two iron mines right here in Ishpeming.
I'm sure times have changed and I simply haven't kept up but I know a number of agency owners in this area and none of them are hurting by any means.
As far as lawyers go, my brother in law is an insurance company lawyer and I can't stand his arrogant ass. Never mind that he's a Lions fan.
I do understand that we live in an increasingly litigious society which probably puts a lot of financial pressures on insurance companies but at this point in my life I doubt that my feelings about insurance companies and lawyers will change.

KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
5 years ago
If you sit down and talk with doctors, they will tell you that the biggest cost of medical care results in medical malpractice and the tests ordered and procedures undertaken to "cover their asses" against ambulance chasers.

Are their bad doctors...yes. Are there bad insurance companies/policies/procedures...yes. But without question, the two biggest costs are unnecessary tests, and covering the uninsured....I am attaching an article from Time Magazine, not exactly the bastion of capitalism....http://time.com/3754900/doctors-unnecessary-tests/

But back to the essence of the thread, if someone thinks there is money to be made insuring football players, leagues, etc., go out and raise the money and start one and if you are right, you will make tons of money.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
Fan Shout
buckeyepackfan (12m) : and released CB Anthony Johnson and DL Deandre Johnson and waived/injured WR Thyrick Pitts (thigh-rick).
buckeyepackfan (14m) : The Green Bay Packers have signed WR Julian Hicks, OL Lecitus Smith (luh-SEET-us) and WR Dimitri Stanley
Zero2Cool (47m) : Petty, but it's annoying me how the NFL is making the schedule release an event.
Mucky Tundra (4-May) : @mattschneidman Matt LaFleur on how he tore his pec: “Got in a fight with the bench press. I lost.”
Zero2Cool (3-May) : Jordan Love CAN sign an extension as of today. Might tak weeks/months though
TheKanataThrilla (3-May) : Packers decline 5th year option for Stokes
Mucky Tundra (3-May) : @ProFootballTalk Jaylen Warren: Steelers' special teams coach has discussed Justin Fields returning kicks.
Zero2Cool (2-May) : Season officially ending tonight for Bucks ... sad face
Zero2Cool (2-May) : Giannis Antetokounmpo is listed as out for tonight's game.
dfosterf (2-May) : Surprisingly low initially is my guess cap wise, but gonna pay the piper after that
dfosterf (2-May) : The number on Love is going to be brutal.
Zero2Cool (2-May) : May 3rd. Extension day for Jordan Love. (soonest)
Zero2Cool (1-May) : USFL MVP QB Alex McGough moved to WR. So that's why no WR drafted!
earthquake (1-May) : Packers draft starters at safety ever few years. Collins, Clinton-Dix, Savage
beast (1-May) : Why can't the rookies be a day 1 starter? Especially when we grabbed 3 of them at the position
dfosterf (1-May) : Not going to be shocked if Gilmore goes to the Lions.
dfosterf (1-May) : I hear you dhazer, but my guess would be Gilmore Colts and Howard Vikings from what little has been reported.
Mucky Tundra (30-Apr) : S learn from McKinney who learns from Hafley who learns from the fans. Guaranteed Super Bowl
Zero2Cool (30-Apr) : could*
Zero2Cool (29-Apr) : Safeties should learn from Xavier.
dhazer (29-Apr) : And what about grabbing a Gilmore or Howard at CB ? Those are all Free Agents left
dhazer (29-Apr) : out of curiosity do they try and sign Simmons or Hyde to let these young safeties learn from, they can't be day 1 starters.
Zero2Cool (29-Apr) : I miss having Sam Shields.
Zero2Cool (29-Apr) : Not that he's making excuses, just pointing it out
Zero2Cool (29-Apr) : That's for dang sure. Make our erratic kicker have no excuse!
packerfanoutwest (28-Apr) : having a great long snapper is gold
Zero2Cool (28-Apr) : LaFleur looking like he had some weight. Coachin will do that lol
Zero2Cool (28-Apr) : Thanks Mucky and whomever created topcos for each pick!
Zero2Cool (28-Apr) : Insane about Kingsley
dfosterf (28-Apr) : Putring it here so Mucky sees it. He was our guy!
dfosterf (28-Apr) : Bowden long snapper Wisconsin. Consensus best LS in college.
dfosterf (28-Apr) : We got Peter Bowde
dfosterf (28-Apr) : I personally interpret that as a partial tear that can be recovered from with rehab
dfosterf (28-Apr) : MLF said Kingsley Enagbare did NOT tear his ACL and did NOT require surgery, and that he is "looking good" for the 2024 season!
beast (28-Apr) : T.O. son signs with the 49ers
Mucky Tundra (28-Apr) : damn those vikings
beast (27-Apr) : UDFA Vikings sign TE – Trey Knox, South Carolina
beast (27-Apr) : Kitchen was all high from Miami, he was more lucky than talented in 2022 and it showed in 2023
beast (27-Apr) : Reportedly Packers have UDFAs Jennings and Jones
beast (27-Apr) : OL – Donovan Jennings, USF OT – Trente Jones, Michigan
TheKanataThrilla (27-Apr) : Interesting draft. A bit shocked that we didn't select an early CB. Definitely have Safety help. Pretty happy overall.
dhazer (27-Apr) : wow the last 2 picks are really stupid and probably will be special teams players Top 10 draft pick next year book it
TheKanataThrilla (27-Apr) : I think he ended up with a terrible RAS score
dhazer (27-Apr) : Anyone know what went on with Kitchens from Florida? At 1 point he was to be the Packers 1st round and he is way down the board now
Martha Careful (27-Apr) : Z, could you please combine my thread with yours please. I obviously did not see it when I Created it
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Re: 'Kool-Aid' McKinstry. Other than Icky Woods, has there ever been a good NFLer with a childish nickname?
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Packers looking to trade up
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Flag?
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Sag?
Nonstopdrivel (26-Apr) : It rhymes with "bag."
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2023 Packers Schedule
Sunday, Sep 10 @ 3:25 PM
Bears
Sunday, Sep 17 @ 12:00 PM
Falcons
Sunday, Sep 24 @ 12:00 PM
SAINTS
Thursday, Sep 28 @ 7:15 PM
LIONS
Monday, Oct 9 @ 7:15 PM
Raiders
Sunday, Oct 22 @ 3:25 PM
Broncos
Sunday, Oct 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Nov 5 @ 12:00 PM
RAMS
Sunday, Nov 12 @ 12:00 PM
Steelers
Sunday, Nov 19 @ 12:00 PM
CHARGERS
Thursday, Nov 23 @ 11:30 AM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 3 @ 7:20 PM
CHIEFS
Monday, Dec 11 @ 7:15 PM
Giants
Sunday, Dec 17 @ 12:00 PM
BUCCANEERS
Sunday, Dec 24 @ 12:00 PM
Panthers
Sunday, Dec 31 @ 7:20 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 7 @ 3:25 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 14 @ 3:30 PM
Cowboys
Saturday, Jan 20 @ 7:15 PM
49ers
Recent Topics
23h / Green Bay Packers Talk / greengold

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / beast

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / beast

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

5-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

4-May / Packers Draft Threads / bboystyle

4-May / Packers Draft Threads / wpr

3-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / greengold

3-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

3-May / Green Bay Packers Talk / go.pack.go.

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.