dfosterf
14 years ago
This is more of a generalized philosophy than addressing the specific issue under discussion.

The root of all that is wrong with government can be illustrated (for me, anyway) by one simple example.

Has anyone ever lived in a townhouse (or Mcmansion) development under the auspices of a homeowner's association?

Not a condominium, mind you...an HOA.

The same kind of pricks that worry what color your townhouse shutters are...

These are the kinds of people that run for public office. These are the kind of people that feel compelled to tell me what is right and wrong.

If I think that the (when I used to live in a townhome development) president(s) of the 2 HOA's I have been subject to would be for something, then I am against it. If I think they would be against something, I'm for it.

I think both of those pricks would make marijuana smoking a violation of the HOA rules were it legal.

I have decided. Go ahead and make the crap legal.

There is some tongue-in-cheek in here, but not all that much. :thumbleft:
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

This is more of a generalized philosophy than addressing the specific issue under discussion.

The root of all that is wrong with government can be illustrated (for me, anyway) by one simple example.

Has anyone ever lived in a townhouse (or Mcmansion) development under the auspices of a homeowner's association?

Not a condominium, mind you...an HOA.

The same kind of pricks that worry what color your townhouse shutters are...

These are the kinds of people that run for public office. These are the kind of people that feel compelled to tell me what is right and wrong.

If I think that the (when I used to live in a townhome development) president(s) of the 2 HOA's I have been subject to would be for something, then I am against it. If I think they would be against something, I'm for it.

I think both of those pricks would make marijuana smoking a violation of the HOA rules were it legal.

I have decided. Go ahead and make the crap legal.

There is some tongue-in-cheek in here, but not all that much. :thumbleft:

"dfosterf" wrote:



We'll make an anarchist out of you yet, Marine. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
TheEngineer
14 years ago


I tend to think the opposite. Outlawing actions or behavior of any kind are not decisions to be made lightly. The burden should always fall on the side of restriction, not on the side of liberty. "Why do they want to legalize it?" in my opinion, is not a relevant question. The natural order is the existence of freedom and choice. To remove that freedom, that choice, is what requires a "why?".

FYI, if you get pulled over, possession of < 1 oz. of marijuana in Massachusetts is now considered something akin to a traffic offense, with a $100 fine and nothing added to your criminal record (plus they confiscate the marijuana, obviously).

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



You know, it's interesting, and especially with what djcubez has mentioned, that originally I had planned to annotate my first post with the fact that I'd rather see alcohol banned than marijuana legalised.

I am of the opinion that the prescription of freedom assumes that any given citizen is rational and capable of making choices in their and in others' best interests.

I can appreciate that Americans have a very strong cultural sense of freedom, but I don't think freedom itself is in any sense natural. Restrictions are placed upon individuals naturally. We do not have the choice whether we fly. We can't view the world in UV if we wanted to. But when it comes to society, there seems to be a expectation, a right, to have freedoms. Of course, it's part of the American constitution and ingrained within the culture to protect this freedom. I appreciate that the pursuit of freedom has enabled a great amount of benefits to Americans and society. Of course, I'd rather live in a free state than a totalitarian regime. But freedoms should only be extended so far. There are road rules because with the freedom of choosing how you want to drive, you take away any expectation of how fellow road users will behave which makes driving far more dangerous.

The only thing I can say that I believe to be natural is a survival instinct. I would be willing to give up some minor freedom, in this case the choice of whether to allow marijuana to be legalised, if it means that I do not run the risk of endangering myself or others.

Okay, so the argument is that marijuana is not dangerous. But do you really want to see a society where your children is initiated in a fraternity or sorority by smoking large quantities of pot and drinking copious amounts of alcohol? How do you know, with legalised marijuana, that people aren't mixing a whole concoction of other illicit chemicals, maybe not maliciously, maybe just for the purposes of diluting the dosage for their own profits, when selling to others? Legalisation does provide freedoms, but how do I know that others will use this change in the best interests?

Let me say, I would not care in the slightest if everyone could confine their pot smoking and their wacky effects to their own homes, but I'm more inclined than not to think that the right to smoke it will be abused.


Furthermore, I can understand that laws are a crapshoot, there are some laws that are completely asinine and others that are painfully overdue. But I don't think it's an argument to legalise.

Djcubez brought up an interesting point of shouldn't french fries be made illegal since they are also unhealthy. Perhaps I was overly zealous when debating economic issues, but as I've said I am not fully aware of what that exactly could be. The difference for me is this: 1 person eating their way to their death isn't going to affect me or my family explicitly. A whole population of chip eaters will impact upon health and the government, and all associated costs with that, sure. But a whole population of potential pot smokers, out on the roads, in the clubs or the pubs or just normal shops, colleagues taking 'going out to smoke some pot' during lunch, etc etc. I would argue that the effects of smoking marijuana is more likely to explicitly affect myself and my family than the effects of eating chips is.

I'll perhaps summarise my stance on this thread topic: I don't much care for what others do, unless it affects my family and I. If it does, I'm going to do what I can to prevent any potential harm to them. Thinking back on my original post I should have clarified this point further because this is my main concern.

Oh and I'll also add that yes, I am not particularly fond of people who feel the need to smoke pot or take drugs for whatever reason other than medical (which in itself is dubious in many cases). But that's my own personal proclivities which I cannot defend other than to say that's just how I feel. That's why I would never use it, nor have I taken any such illicit drugs. But I don't really give two hoots about it unless it affects me; I'm not going to go up to people who smoke pot and actively discriminate against them.
blank
zombieslayer
14 years ago

The burden should always fall on the side of restriction, not on the side of liberty.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



This is one of the smartest statements I've heard in a long time.
Thank you MassPackersFan. :thumbright:
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djcubez
14 years ago



Okay, so the argument is that marijuana is not dangerous. But do you really want to see a society where your children is initiated in a fraternity or sorority by smoking large quantities of pot and drinking copious amounts of alcohol? How do you know, with legalised marijuana, that people aren't mixing a whole concoction of other illicit chemicals, maybe not maliciously, maybe just for the purposes of diluting the dosage for their own profits, when selling to others?


Djcubez brought up an interesting point of shouldn't french fries be made illegal since they are also unhealthy. Perhaps I was overly zealous when debating economic issues, but as I've said I am not fully aware of what that exactly could be. The difference for me is this: 1 person eating their way to their death isn't going to affect me or my family explicitly. A whole population of chip eaters will impact upon health and the government, and all associated costs with that, sure. But a whole population of potential pot smokers, out on the roads, in the clubs or the pubs or just normal shops, colleagues taking 'going out to smoke some pot' during lunch, etc etc. I would argue that the effects of smoking marijuana is more likely to explicitly affect myself and my family than the effects of eating chips is.

"TheEngineer" wrote:



I agree with you on a lot of what you have to say but I've brought up this point a lot; the people that will smoke pot after it's legalized are the same people that do it now. The fraternity situation you mentioned happens on the regular already, in fact I wouldn't doubt that they may even include harder drugs like Cocaine or Mushrooms.

As far as diluting the drug, that's a problem I don't understand. Everyone seems to envision corporations taking over the pot industry after it's legalized but I disagree. Because of how easy pot is to grow it'd be like having your own garden, not to mention that a lot of establishments in California get their pot from people who grow it and then donate it to the shop. Although I have heard that Marlboro already has a pot cigarette product line established but I can't confirm it.

I also don't agree with your idea that people will be smoking it all the time. Alcohol is legal and every locale has it's drunks but most people know when it's appropriate. I feel the same would go for pot. Not to mention that when pot is legalized it's not going to be a weed free-for-all smoke-out. There will be plenty of laws that regulate it's use, in fact I wouldn't doubt that you may have to obtain a license for you to legally smoke it. That's why I think this whole thing has taken for ever to become legal--nobody knows the right way to approach it politically.
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Djcubez is right. In California, it's pretty much legal. Here in San Francisco, cops look the other way.

Pot is easy to grow. It's so easy, anyone can do it. And when I say anyone, I'm not exaggerating. You'll see grandparents here growing pot and a lot of handicapable folks growing it to make their lives easier.

In California, we've realized we have bigger fish to fry. Let's say you're Chief of Police in a major city. You have a budget. Who would you rather go after, murderers, rapists, child molestors, or potheads? That's a serious question. You have to budget your resources accordingly. California has decided to budget close to zero resources on going after potheads. Glad this state did something right. Now I wish we'd spend more on going after illegals but that's another can of worms entirely.

So, pot's legal and I know several people with medical marijuana. Am I tempted to ask them to share? No. It's pretty much the same people who did pot before it was legal are the same ones who are doing it now that it's legal.

One more thing, I wanted to elaborate on what MassPackersFan said about Freedom. We should ALWAYS err on the side of Freedom vs restriction. ALWAYS. According to the American Cancer Society, cigarettes kill 400,000+ Americans a year. In 2008, NO ONE in America died from marijuana. So tell me, why is tobacco legal and marijuana illegal?
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
well, on the good side, one of my students told me that absinthe is legal again. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Absinthe was never illegal to import, purchase, possess, or consume. The reason why the misconception arose that it was illegal is that the allowed levels of thujone, the supposedly (but not really) hallucinogenic substance in absinthe, were below detectable levels for the available analysis apparatus of the time. Therefore, it was impossible to manufacture absinthe in this country that contained thujone levels in compliance with the regulation. As detection techniques have become more sensitive, these low thujone levels have become reliably detectable, and the FDA has been forced to acknowledge that it's in fact legal to manufacture absinthe in this country.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I still don't have time to address this issue with the detail it concerns, but I thought I'd share a couple of quotes I found interesting:

"Make the most you can of the Indian Hemp seed and sow it everywhere." -- President George Washington, 1794

"George Washington" wrote:



"The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the [hemp] prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this." -- Albert Einstein

"Albert Einstein" wrote:



Prohibition goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded. -- Abraham Lincoln, December 1840

"Abraham Lincoln" wrote:



"Some of my finest hours have been spent on my back veranda smoking hemp and observing as far as my eye can see." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1781

"Thomas Jefferson" wrote:



"Hemp is of first necessity to the wealth & protection of the country." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Thomas Jefferson" wrote:



By 1839, cannabis hemp products for fiber, paper, nautical use, lamp oil, food, etc., were possibly the largest agricultural and industrial businesses in America and, of course, throughout the world, the hundreds of medical uses of cannabis (known for thousands of years in the Orient and Middle East) were still almost entirely unknown in much of Western Europe and America because of the earlier Medieval Catholic Churchs suppression. From 1850 to 1937, cannabis was used as the prime medicine for more than 100 separate illnesses or diseases in U.S. Pharmacopoeia. By the start of the 20th century almost four generations of Americans had been using cannabis. Virtually everyone in this country was familiar from childhood on with the highs of cannabis extract - yet doctors did not consider it habit forming, anti-social or violent at all, after 60 years of use. . . . Cannabis hemp was legal tender (money) in most of the Americas from 1631 until the early 1800s. You could even be jailed in America for not growing cannabis during several periods of shortage, e.g., in Virginia between 1763 and 1767. Botanically, hemp is a member of the most advanced plant family on Earth. It is a dioecious (having male, female and sometimes hermaphroditic, male and female on same plant), woody, herbaceous annual that uses the sun more efficiently than virtually any other plant on our planet, reaching a robust 12 to 20 feet or more in one short growing season. It can be grown in virtually any climate or soil condition on Earth, even marginal ones. Hemp is, by far, Earths premier, renewable natural resource. This is why hemp (cannabis) is so very important. Read "The Emperor Wears No Clothes" by Jack Herer.


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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

Columns
Harvey Wasserman


This Presidents Day remember that George Washington raised hemp and probably smoked it
 


January 29, 2009

George Washington raised large quantities of hemp. So did Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and virtually every other 1700s American farmer.

It is also highly likely at least some of them smoked its potent sibling, now known as marijuana.

Perhaps we should commemorate the upcoming Presidents Day by honoring George Washington with a National Celebration to Re-Legalize Hemp and Marijuana.

Indeed, in the Age of Obama, this old news has a new meaning. It is time to end Hemp/Marijuana Prohibition. With Bush gone and a new generation taking charge, we may finally have a chance to do it. Our nations famous Founders are our key allies.

Since 1937 the US has suffered through a period of hemp persecution that all the Founders---from Washington to Franklin, from Adams to Madison---would have deemed absolutely insane.

In their honor, in renewed protest against this absurd Prohibition, PASSIONS OF THE PATRIOTS, by Thomas Paine, is now being published. As we approach Presidents Day, this based on true history novel shows Washington and his cohorts in their natural state, growing and smoking what we now call pot in mass quantities.

In his farm journal of August 7, 1765, Washington notes that he began to separate (sic) the male from the female hemprather too late. An astute agronomist, Washington could only have been seeking a crop with stronger medicinal qualities. Founders who smoked bales of tobacco and consumed oceans of beer (Washington was young Americas leading brewer) could not have missed the recreational properties of a crop well known for five millennia.

As for industrial hemp, growing it has actually been mandatory at various times in our history. Most recently Kansas was virtually carpeted with it as part of the effort to win World War Two.

For more than 5,000 years, dating back at least to ancient China, hemp has been used for paper, rope, sails, cloth, clothing, fuel, food, and much more. Today the rich oil in hemp seeds should be a staple of our conversion to clean, green bio-diesel fuels. Its stems and leaves could be a core crop for making cellulosic ethanol. Re-legalized hemp cultivation could quickly become a multi-billion-dollar bonanza for American farmers, just as it was immensely profitable for George Washington and his cohorts.

Hemp is great for the environment because it is a hardy perennial. It needs no annual re-seeding, no plowing, no fertilizer, no pesticides, no herbicides. Its seeds are loved by birds of all varieties, and are so full of vitamins and protein they comprise a pure, clean supplement for the modern human diet.

An acre of hemp produces five times as much paper as an acre of trees. The product is more durable and easier to manufacture. At least one draft each of the Declaration of Independence and US Constitution were written on it.

Hemp growing is legal in Canada, Germany and China, among other places, where it is productive and profitable. Desperate for income, farmers in the Dakotas and elsewhere throughout the Great Plains have been organizing to get this time-honored plant re-legalized.

They have Americas Founders on their side. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison and the entire early American farm community---about 90% of the populace back then---would be astonished to hear that industrial hemp or its smokable sister are illegal.

With the coming of a president who has admitted to smoking marijuana and liking it, its time to link Number 44 with Numbers one through four, and beyond.

With our economy on the ropes, there are billions of dollars to be made from growing industrial hemp, and from taxing legalized marijuana.

On this coming Presidents Day, Barack Obama should take a hint from our First President by kicking off a national campaign to end Prohibition and re-legalize both hemp and marijuana. Its time to honor our ancestors.

--
http://freepress.org .


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