Bad for everyone zero...it is going to cost you more for lesser quality care. How much R&D do you think will occur in the medical device and pharmaceutical industries...you know, those evil fuckers that make live saving/improving devices and medicines...as this bill punishes them with increased taxation of their products.

Again...I wish EVERYONE could speak to my friend from Canada regarding her nation' "health care" system. When asked why she moved here, the answer is "freedom"...which we are losing daily under this clown and his congress.

---

Well, I work with 2 people from Canada who return home for medical treatment because it has served them well their entire lives.

The problem, in my mind, is that we Americans are too busy playing the my side is right, your side is wrong game while ignoring the fact that the health care industry is greedy and corrupt. (so are 90% of the politicians, either side, by the way.)

No one should be refused health care, rich, poor, immigrant, illegal, martian, canine etc. It is not a luxury, its a right and health care for (mega) profit is a "sin".

Anyone claiming to be christian (or any other denomination for that matter) who is against health care reform didn't pay much attention to what Christ had to say. (and I'm not a religious man)

---

Dingus...those in need are cared for in emergency rooms across the country. It is a non-issue.

Those we are now serving with this plan are the lazy and stupid who choose not to insure, or because of their endless list of stupid life and health decisions, make insurance unaffordable for themselves.

I am a healthy 47 yo...much of my health has to do with decisins I made/make on diet, alcohol, drugs, exercise, etc. Why should I, a person who CARES FOR MY HEALTH, be required to subsidize the high insurance costs of the fucker who slams boxes of Ho-Hos and bottles of whiskey on a daily basis.

Religion has no role in this discussion except for the care of societies most vulnerable....not the stupid and lazy who are milking this country dry!

Asfor my Canadian friend....3 year wait for her Father's heart valve replacement. Almost died several times during the wait.

---

I've commented on other forums about this from a UK standpoint.

We have the NHS and it is the best in the world.

My father has, since he retired at 65, had a triple heart by-pass, both knees replaced and spent 3 weeks in hospital after recovering from a fall which broke his hip.

He is now nearly 85 and I feel he would not be here without the NHS.

He contributed all his working lfe though National Insurance deductions from his wages.

You work, you pay.......... simple.

When you need, you get............... simple.

No on is discriminated against because of the size of their bank account.

What have you got against that????????????????

---

There is no "right" to healthcare. That is a preposterous argument. Rights are a condition intrinsic to human existence -- "endowed by their Creator," if you will.

We have the right to life, liberty, and property (the meaning behind the euphemistic phrase "pursuit of happiness"). We have the right to speak and associate freely, to worship according to our conscience, to protect ourselves, to be safe in our homes from unreasonable search and seizure, to safeguard ourselves from self-implication, to a be tried speedily and impartially by a jury of our peers, to have a reasonable chance for bail when we are incarcerated.

Rights are timeless, for all ages and all mankind.

Medical care is something else entirely. It isn't inherent to human existence. It is very much a temporal development. It is a field of science and service humans have developed through research and technology. That takes work and money. If someone is going to offer medical services, they have the right according to the "pursuit of happiness" clause to be fairly compensated for those services. No one has the "right" to demand those services, any more than he or she has the "right" to demand internet.

But I firmly believe that in another decade or so, we will see internet labeled a "human right" and calls for it to be provided to those who can't afford it, just as we've begun to see education labeled a "human right." There are already possibly rumblings of such a phenomenon in the netbook movement, which was originally designed to give computer access children in Third World countries who could not otherwise afford it. It just so happened, contrary to all expectations, that those same computers became wildly popular in Westernized countries too. Nowadays they seem almost as common as cell phones.

I find all the handwringing that surrounds medical moral dilemmas surrounding to be absurd. They're dilemmas of our own devising. They didn't exist 100 or even 50 years ago.

Healthcare isn't a right. It's a luxury. And luxuries you should have to work for.

---

So I take it you believe that if someone has a heart attack that the person who doesn't work should be treated differently that someone who does work because the person who does work can pay for the treatment??

Not starting an argument with a fellow packer fan I just would like to see what your view point is.

Sometimes we have to agree to disagree on politics. It's the nature of thngs.

---

Digs,
I wasn't necessarily trying to bring religion into the discussion as I consider myself an atheist. I really was trying to say that health care is and should be a right and probably should have framed it in a moral or ethical argument. my point was that the rhetoric coming from both sides clouds the basic premise that the insurance companies, once upon a time, were privately held companies that competed for customers and actually tried to deliver a fair and equitable service that wasn't driven by market share and paying ever increasing dividends to the stockholders. Now the bottom line decides the fate of those who don't have the means to pay exorbitant premiums for lackluster care.

As far as your argument about leading a healthy lifestyle goes, that's great that you take personal responsibility for yourself. But one can be in the best of shape and still face health care concerns that are beyond ones control, sickness happens just as much to healthy, clean living folk as it does to the ho ho stuffers.

And I could argue its the greedy and corrupt corporations, war mongering politicians and morally bankrupt average joes that are milking this country dry. Plus the fact that we as a country don't manufacture anything but debt anymore.

And if you do a little research, Emergency room visits are a huge part of the health care woes we as a country face. Affordable preventative care is a much better option than going to the hospital ER because its a last resort.

---

I don't know understand how we can know more about what is right, than those we elected into the office to make the decisions.

I'm not sure if I like the whole voting thing, because, didn't "we" elect these who are now "screwing" us over?


This whole thing baffles me.

---

No offense flep...but the thing that makes this country unique, amongst all others, are the rights and freedoms bestowed upon each citizen at the time of their birth. In America, you have the freedom to shit down your leg daily with bad choices, and I have the right not to subsidize your bad choices. Pretty simple, eh?

The opportunity to succeed or fail beyond your wildest imagination is what makes this country great, and unique in the world.

Now, truth be told, most of Europe has been free to pursue socialist governments and pay for a more "cradle to grave" handholding by government welfare because, for the last 60 years, your security has been bought and paid for by the United States, to the greatest extent. I almost wish the U.S. would retreat from Europe, and curtail our military umbrella, and see just how well your systems work when you have to pay for your own military security.

Let's be real here, Europe is so removed from its own security needs....in both equipment and willingness/spine to participate....to such an extent that the U.S had to deal with your mess in Kosovo.

That being said, the U.K is the best of the bunch, and our "special relationship" is to be nourished...not pissed on as this administration has done.

Again, no offense....just reality.

---

Dingus......ofcourse a perfectly healthy person could have major health issues. My point is, if we know of very divergent lifestyles amongst people, some of which are beneficial and some of which are detrimental to good health, there is NO WAY those who make good choices should be treated the same as those who don't.

And while I agree that abuses of ERs is a big problem, my point is that people do get healthcare.

As far as preventative healthcare...I agree....but with one caveat. Everyone, no matter their income, has to have some involvement in the payment of their health care lest it be abused. In the same way everyone should pay taxes, relative to their income, so abuse does not exist.

If you have no vested interest or personal involvement, you will abuse the system and be more than happy to vote into other people's wallets since yours will be excluded from pillaging.

---